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[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Human error implies at least some knowledge of what it is your are dealing with. Here, you have no idea what the idol is. It's not an error to find it and take it with you.

Human error doesn't nessarily mean you must know what you are dealing with. The dictionary meaning of human error is a mistake made by a person rather than being caused by a poorly designed process or the malfunctioning of a machine such as a computer. Just because I didn't know that, the king wasn't allergic to nuts, doesn't mean it isn't human error, as the new chef, I didn't know I was dealing with allegies. It's an error to see the relic causing mental distress (in the case of Bertrand) and still allow it to circulate around unchecked, without attempting to apphend or track it down.

And that's all fine and dandy, I am not arguing about the plausibility (it's magic). I am arguing that this was a poor way to communicate the story and I felt it stripped it of humanity. Because nefarious artifacts that turn people insane is not human. Finding it might be, but in and of itself, it isn't. 

I disagree, the relic didn't make Meredith insane, rather it preyed on her already defined parania and obssesions, slowly escalating it and ampilifying it, eventually this point in the story would of happen, the relic caused it to happen sooner. Rather than seeing the relic as the cause, you should see the dogma, tradition and mindset of templars, chantry and mages as the cause, it will definately interject much more humanity to the situation.

What should have been done is focus on the actual conflict itself and the characters implicated in it and how escallated.

Slight contradiction, early you stated that you felt, the relic was unexplained, and now you call for LESS focus on it and more focus on other areas. All this would do is raise more questions about the relic and leave it more unrealistic (I use this term loosely). The conflict and characters were built up, but subtly, throughout all three acts. I do agree though that there should of been more emphasis in the final act of the game.

It didn't need to have an unknown idol. That would have been much more interesting. And I don't care about making Hawke the most important person ever (by accident). I care about his place in the larger picture and his interactions with people. If that was Bioware's intent, then I will express my dissapointment.  

You may no care, but most players do. You are HAWKE, you are the CHAMPION. If your character and his actions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, the character has no point, no purpose. The relic gives Hawke a purpose and influence in the story. You already see people complain that Hawke was rather underwhelming, removing the relic would increase this.

And if there was going to be an exterior influence, then make it like Saren and Sovereign. That was perfectly written. We see Saren progressing and changing. Rationalizing himself. Doubting. Then losing control. Then finally potentially redeeming himself. THAT is exterior non-human influence done right, which did not strip Saren of his "humanity". Because the indoctrination of Saren was subtle. With Meredith, we got a small glimpse of all that in the last 5 minutes only and it was far from being subtle (evil sword, red eyes, jumping in the air). That, plus we had an idea what the reapers are, vs the nothing we know of the idol.

While Saren might of had humanity, the reaper did not. Actually the reaper (I forgot it's name), is even less human and mature than the relic. The relic may have a story, a reason that it does what it does, maybe a distressed dwarf forged it after losing his long lost love and within it, his own growing insanity was welded within. The reapers however appear to be just destructive creatures, their whole purpose of being is to destory. How is this more humane than a magic relic? 

Meredith, throughout the fight, also questions herself and if you see, she believes that the power she is drawing on is that of the maker, not of some crazy relic. She believes the maker is empowering her, that she is carrying out his duty. If that wasn't a window into her mind, what is?

[Sherbet Lemon]

I'm of the opinion that the idol was not so much directly responsible for what happened, but it exacerbated and heightened the corrosive parts of Meredith that were already there.  It twisted her righteousnous into to something reprehensible which follows that the main theme (or at least what I think is one of the main premises) in that corruption manifests when we allow things to evolve beyond what we can control.  This could be magic or it could be prejudice and hate (in the presence of the quanari), it could be poverty and tyranny, and the oppression of those who are refugees escaping the blight.  When the characters finally do fully understand the darkness that evinces to thoroughly in their very natures, the realization comes too late and unfortunately, Hawke is forced to act. 

Yes, the idol gives Hawke more indirect input into the course of the events, but it also serves a symbol of everything that is troubling Kirkwall.  I also think that since we don't know what it was exactly ( though I'm off the opinion that it has something to do with Old Gods and their corruption), it is difficult to really gauge the importance of it. 

I think a wee bit more interaction with Meredith and Orsino might have made the difference for Act 3.
I still loved it though....I stayed up all night to finish it...@_@

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
I disagree, the relic didn't make Meredith insane, rather it preyed on her already defined parania and obssesions, slowly escalating it and ampilifying it, eventually this point in the story would of happen, the relic caused it to happen sooner. Rather than seeing the relic as the cause, you should see the dogma, tradition and mindset of templars, chantry and mages as the cause, it will definately interject much more humanity to the situation.

A process which we do not see, aka no character development. It was all shown right at the end.

The situation only escallated out of control after Act 2, aka after she acquired the idol (in fact, I think she had the sword at the end of Act 2). Something that could have been removed entirely and instead have us focus on her character progressing and developping, with reasons we can see.

Slight contradiction, early you stated that you felt, the relic was unexplained, and now you call for LESS focus on it and more focus on other areas. All this would do is raise more questions about the relic and leave it more unrealistic (I use this term loosely). The conflict and characters were built up, but subtly, throughout all three acts. I do agree though that there should of been more emphasis in the final act of the game.

No contradiction. I'd rather have the idol removed completely. But if it's there, explain some of it, but also focus on the human aspect of the conflict. We had neither. 

The conflict was build up, the characters were not, by your own admission.

You may no care, but most players do. You are HAWKE, you are the CHAMPION. If your character and his actions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, the character has no point, no purpose. The relic gives Hawke a purpose and influence in the story. You already see people complain that Hawke was rather underwhelming, removing the relic would increase this.

He became Champion because of Act 2, not for finding an idol by accident.
Hawke could have acquired a much more meaningful purpose other than being involved in an accident. Either by defying the Templars, or annuling mages.

While Saren might of had humanity, the reaper did not. Actually the reaper (I forgot it's name), is even less human and mature than the relic. The relic may have a story, a reason that it does what it does, maybe a distressed dwarf forged it after losing his long lost love and within it, his own growing insanity was welded within. The reapers however appear to be just destructive creatures, their whole purpose of being is to destory. How is this more humane than a magic relic?

The Reapers are sentient, with a purpose. We know something about them and a bit about their motivation. With the idol, we know nothing and it's pure conjecture that it will have an explanation, let alone an interesting one. If they want it to be that crucial, explain in the game.

Second, the Reapers have a larger purpose, hinted at in ME1. Shown more explictly in ME2. And they at least think. the idol is an object that is unexplained.

Meredith, throughout the fight, also questions herself and if you see, she believes that the power she is drawing on is that of the maker, not of some crazy relic. She believes the maker is empowering her, that she is carrying out his duty. If that wasn't a window into her mind, what is?

5 minutes at the very end does not constitute development. We see Saren questioning himself in the middle of the game and he tells us that he's been in doubt throughout.

If the idol was so necessary, then show us Meredith progressing from before and how she's reacting to it. Don't give me 5 minutes at the end of the game and expect me to think that Meredith is a deep character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The situation only escallated out of control after Act 2, aka after she acquired the idol (in fact, I think she had the sword at the end of Act 2). Something that could have been removed entirely and instead have us focus on her character progressing and developping, with reasons we can see.

Again, I disagree. The situation was already getting out of control, we saw through secondary and side quests that mages and templars were getting into more and more conflict with one another (especially in Act 2). We see templars fighting against each other (Thrask conspiring and lying to his friends about the mages in the caves), mages turning to blood magic due to situations (countless quests). We even see a mass murder being supported by the first enchanter (you see a letter in his base signed by O). Also the underground mage quests show some insight, mages were already conspiring and framing templars. It was already spinning out of control.

Like I said before, I do AGREE that much more character development of Orsino and Meredith was needed though.

No contradiction. I'd rather have the idol removed completely. But if it's there, explain some of it, but also focus on the human aspect of the conflict. We had neither. 

The conflict was build up, the characters were not, by your own admission.

I never questioned the characters lacking development (specifically Meredith and Orsino) but when you criticize writing, you also criticize the whole story, not just character development. The human aspect of the conflict was already developed and delved into all the way from Origins. We all already knew about templars attititude to mages and vice versa. DA2 in the first two acts then build on this with more aspects of the conflict. What drove the mages and in turn what also drove the templars.

He became Champion because of Act 2, not for finding an idol by accident.
Hawke could have acquired a much more meaningful purpose other than being involved in an accident. Either by defying the Templars, or annuling mages. 

Disregarding the champion comment, Hawke was important because had it no beenfor him, Kirkwall would most likely still be at peace. Varric says this himself at the end of the game. The fact that Hawke found the relic adds further meaning to his purpose in the story.

I'm unsure what you mean by the last comment, Hawke has the choice of doing either.

The Reapers are sentient, with a purpose. We know something about them and a bit about their motivation. With the idol, we know nothing and it's pure conjecture that it will have an explanation, let alone an interesting one. If they want it to be that crucial, explain in the game.  

Please enlighten me, I don't understand the Reapers motives, their purpose seems to destory civilisations so they can build up again. The motivation seems to be..to destory stuff (to put it bluntly). We know little of the reapers truly, all we learn in ME1 and 2 is their plans and what they intend to do. Not to mention this takes 2 games to delve into, for all we know the Relic shall be continued in DA3. Also you seem to neglect all the actions that happen in Varric's sidequests, Bertand's madness and the revisting of the house, which finds the relic almost singing to Varric. If this is not information, what is.

Second, the Reapers have a larger purpose, hinted at in ME1. Shown more explictly in ME2. And they at least think. the idol is an object that is unexplained.

The relic is also hinted to have a larger purpose. Since DA3 is far from now and there are plenty of DLC and stories to emerge, I think this is a rather unfair and rash judgement. It takes time to develop and build on something that plays a possible future role like the relic, it's introduction is DA2, it's development is likely to be DA3.

5 minutes at the very end does not constitute development. We see Saren questioning himself in the middle of the game and he tells us that he's been in doubt throughout.

If the idol was so necessary, then show us Meredith progressing from before and how she's reacting to it. Don't give me 5 minutes at the end of the game and expect me to think that Meredith is a deep character.

I never denied Meredith and Orsino were of weak character, it's actually the first thing I mentioned on this thread. However, it doesn't mean they have NO character or that they weren't humane/show humanity in anyway, I feel that is too harsh a statement.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 15 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...Again, I disagree. The situation was already getting out of control, we saw through secondary and side quests that mages and templars were getting into more and more conflict with one another (especially in Act 2). We see templars fighting against each other (Thrask conspiring and lying to his friends about the mages in the caves), mages turning to blood magic due to situations (countless quests). We even see a mass murder being supported by the first enchanter (you see a letter in his base signed by O). Also the underground mage quests show some insight, mages were already conspiring and framing templars. It was already spinning out of control.

Thrashk's real insurrection was in Act 3. In Act 2, it was passively helping Apostates. But as Varric said, it really got out of control after Act 2. That's when Meredith started to become way too oppressive, which in turn caused more opposition.

Like I said before, the conflict was building up and that was good. But it got out of hand after she acquired the idol. Before, it was isolated incidents. In addition to building up the conflict, which was done well, it should have built up the characters involved.

I never questioned the characters lacking development (specifically Meredith and Orsino) but when you criticize writing, you also criticize the whole story, not just character development. The human aspect of the conflict was already developed and delved into all the way from Origins. We all already knew about templars attititude to mages and vice versa. DA2 in the first two acts then build on this with more aspects of the conflict. What drove the mages and in turn what also drove the templars.

I am not criticizing the writing of the whole story, I loved Act 2.
And by human aspect of the conflict, I mean characters acting like microcosms. Which should have been done with Meredith and Orsino, the first two people you see when you open the game. They were supposed to represent each faction and they fail to convey that.

If you mean I am criticizing the whole story for making Hawke the most important person because of an accident, then yes. I am not a fan. I'd rather have Hawke be part of a larger story, not entirely of his making (whether deliberate or by accident).

Disregarding the champion comment, Hawke was important because had it no beenfor him, Kirkwall would most likely still be at peace. Varric says this himself at the end of the game. The fact that Hawke found the relic adds further meaning to his purpose in the story.

I'm unsure what you mean by the last comment, Hawke has the choice of doing either.

I get what you are saying and I think this is a bad way to express the story. I'd rather have something else.

And I meant that he becomes a legend for either defying the Templars, or annuling. Not by finding an idol. And I just do not see much point in attributing so much importance to Hawke, if he found an idol by accident. If anything, it's Bartrand the most important person in the story, by your logic. He's the one who came up with the idea. He's the one who took the idol. And he's the one who sold it.

Bartrand, the real Champion of Kirkwall.

Please enlighten me, I don't understand the Reapers motives, their purpose seems to destory civilisations so they can build up again. The motivation seems to be..to destory stuff (to put it bluntly).

Other than reproduction, Harbinger talks about ascension.

Also you seem to neglect all the actions that happen in Varric's sidequests, Bertand's madness and the revisting of the house, which finds the relic almost singing to Varric. If this is not information, what is.

It's not, because we still know nothing. What is it? Who built it? Why? When? Is it sentient? Why only Varric can hear the song? Is there stories about it?
None of this is explained. I am not saying they should tell us everything right away, but instead of having a useless ethereal golem, delve into the mystery more by giving us hints and pieces. Make us interested.

Like the Sacred Ashes. It isn't fully explained. But we have stories about it. We interact with the Guardian. We have Oghren telling us there's Lyrium. That is an ambiguous but interesting plot element.

The relic is also hinted to have a larger purpose. Since DA3 is far from now and there are plenty of DLC and stories to emerge, I think this is a rather unfair and rash judgement. It takes time to develop and build on something that plays a possible future role like the relic, it's introduction is DA2, it's development is likely to be DA3.

Not really, nothing is hinted at. The fact it can produce a song, like a lyrium ring, does not mean necessarily that is has a larger purpose. It could, it could not.

I am not going to wait for DA3 to explain to me something that happened in DA2. Make an actual introduction. Example. Flemeth was introduced in DA:O and she will be developped later on, but we got an actual intro in Origins. We interacted with her. We heard stories about her. We interacted with her daughter...etc. That is a mystery properly initiated.

I never denied Meredith and Orsino were of weak character, it's actually the first thing I mentioned on this thread. However, it doesn't mean they have NO character or that they weren't humane/show humanity in anyway, I feel that is too harsh a statement.

Orsino almost had no character and Meredith was a weak character. And whatever humanity they show is compomised by lack of proper character development and the idol. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[MortalEngines]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Thrashk's real insurrection was in Act 3. In Act 2, it was passively helping Apostates. But as Varric said, it really got out of control after Act 2. That's when Meredith started to become way too oppressive, which in turn caused more opposition. [/quote]

It's stop being passive when you can kill the whole templar party that arrives and Thrasks covers for you. Even before Best Served Cold, it is hinted that other templars were working against each other and conspiring against one another. 

[quote]
Like I said before, the conflict was building up and that was good. But it got out of hand after she acquired the idol. Before, it was isolated incidents. In addition to building up the conflict, which was done well, it should have built up the characters involved. [/quote]

Agreed, but I still feel it was already getting out of hand before the idol. Blood mages were still running around, killing innocents and I saw so many abominations and Tevinter slavers it was astounding. And this is Act 2.

[quote]And by human aspect of the conflict, I mean characters acting like microcosms. Which should have been done with Meredith and Orsino, the first two people you see when you open the game. They were supposed to represent each faction and they fail to convey that.[/quote]

They were acting like people. People that lacked sound mind, but people still. Someone who is insane doesn't just stop being a person. While insanity is chaotic, it is as much of the human psyche than anything else (for instance love). I do feel though that it was brought forward too soon and that there should of been followup before that, like you suggested.

[quote]
If you mean I am criticizing the whole story for making Hawke the most important person because of an accident, then yes. I am not a fan. I'd rather have Hawke be part of a larger story, not entirely of his making (whether deliberate or by accident). [/quote]

Well the larger story is the destruction of the Status Quo in Thedas. Which Hawke is apart of removing (by circumstance and accident) and is assumed to be apart of solving it.

[quote]I get what you are saying and I think this is a bad way to express the story. I'd rather have something else. [/quote]

While I would prefer something else, I don't despise it. I like drinking beer but prefer wine.

[quote]
And I meant that he becomes a legend for either defying the Templars, or annuling. Not by finding an idol. And I just do not see much point in attributing so much importance to Hawke, if he found an idol by accident. If anything, it's Bartrand the most important person in the story, by your logic. He's the one who came up with the idea. He's the one who took the idol. And he's the one who sold it. [/quote]

First, Bartrand didn't find the idol, that was Hawke, also it was Hawke who acquired the map and gave Bartrand enough to fund the expedition. He also cleared the way for Bartrand. And while Bartrand stole it, he would of never had it if not for Hawke.

Putting that aside, you are correct, Hawke becomes a legend by defying the templars or annuling. And this is also his purpose in his story, I actually should of mentioned this before. But I don't see how this refutes my point, we cannot see the consequences Hawke has on the conflict till the time in which Cassandra is telling the story, so while that act is important in DA3, it perhaps is less so in DA2.

[quote]Other than reproduction, Harbinger talks about ascension. [/quote]

Ascension is just about as vaguely described as the Maker is. And by the logic, the relic seems to have the purpose or motivation to find new owners to possess and take over.

[quote]It's not, because we still know nothing. What is it? Who built it? Why? When? Is it sentient? Why only Varric can hear the song? Is their stories about it? [/quote]

1. It's a relic, made of raw lyrium, which seems to be corrupted or dangerious
2. We don't know yet
3. By dwarves of the old presumably.
4. Before the anicent dwarves as we knew them.
5. It seemed to speak and instruct Bartrand, so yes, somewhat
6. Because the relic probably saw him as most suspectible.
7. We don't know yet.

I could draw hundreds of questions about the Reapers as well, it's not a far comparasion.

[quote]
None of this is explained. I am not sayign they should tell us everything right away, but instead of having a useless ethereal golem, delve into the mystery more by giving us hints and pieces. Make us interested. [/quote]

They did drop hints, quite alot, you just need to look deep into, I believe there is a topic about this somewhere. Though I do agree it may have been too subtle.

[quote]Not really, nothing is hinted at. The fact it can produce a song, like a lyrium ring, does not mean necessarily that is has a larger purpose. It could, it could not.[/quote]

Seeing as Meredith seemed to turn into a relic similar to the original one, I think it suggests that raw lyrium will play a bigger part in DA universe (maybe not the relic specifically, but the Lyrium for sure).

[quote]
I am not going to wait for DA3 to explain to me something that happened in DA2. Make an actual introduction. Example. Flemeth was introduced in DA:O and she will be developped later on, but we got an actual intro in Origins. We interacted with her. We heard stories aobut her. We interacted with her daughter...etc. That is a mystery properly initiated. 
[/quote]

Most things about Flemeth is heresay at best. Most information contradicts each other and seems to hold little truth to them. But I understand and agree with what you're suggesting.

Best we agree to disagree, though I enjoy talking to you.

[tankgirly]

I actually think both Act 2 and Act 3 are great. There is nothing wrong. I must be the odd ball here.

Modifié par tankgirly, 15 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Denizen89]

This is why I thought the game could have benefited being longer with at least 10-20 more quests between Meredith and Orisino. Because We don't see either one til the end of act 2. So plenty of quests between the two of them would have been useful to the development of both of them. Plus I do agree I sided with the mages but winded up fighting more demons and crap than templars. The Idol being the ancient evil is just so unoriginal and bland that it just should have been scrapped from the start, because what is it really? Lyrium? I doubt it. I think it was some kind of ancient demon that twisted your perception. But I would have liked a firmer idea. The last boss fight was way too easy and it seemed that they just threw cameos and whatever they could think of at the players. It just seems that someone higher up rushed this game into its release date when it could have used another year or so. This could have been a giant disaster like a certain Star Wars game that had only a year or so to be developed and it was laughably and painfully horrible. But no they salvaged some of it to make it Decent enough. A lot of DLC is needed for them to make this game any better. Plus I would like to see DLC mods of some of the maps in earlier levels and another mage that is a companion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...
It's stop being passive when you can kill the whole templar party that arrives and Thrasks covers for you. Even before Best Served Cold, it is hinted that other templars were working against each other and conspiring against one another. [/quote]

A minority still. And killing the Templars was an unwitnessed event, he still remains a templar afterwards. IT was not an explicit show of defiance to Meredith.

[quote]
Agreed, but I still feel it was already getting out of hand before the idol. Blood mages were still running around, killing innocents and I saw so many abominations and Tevinter slavers it was astounding. And this is Act 2.[/quote]

I think we are arguing semantics. I am not saying that everythign was fine in Act 2 or even Act 1. The conflict was building up. But like Varric said, Meredith became more oppressive after Act 2.

[quote]
They were acting like people. People that lacked sound mind, but people still. Someone who is insane doesn't just stop being a person. While insanity is chaotic, it is as much of the human psyche than anything else (for instance love). I do feel though that it was brought forward too soon and that there should of been followup before that, like you suggested.[/quote]


Insanity as the end result is not that interesting imo. It's how a person gets there that is interesting. And we don't see that with Meredith, which should have been done with or without idol.  


[quote]
Well the larger story is the destruction of the Status Quo in Thedas. Which Hawke is apart of removing (by circumstance and accident) and is assumed to be apart of solving it.[/quote]


And that's fine, but it could have been told better imo.


[quote]
While I would prefer something else, I don't despise it. I like drinking beer but prefer wine.[/quote]

When I compare it to Act 2, I dislike it.


[quote]
First, Bartrand didn't find the idol, that was Hawke, also it was Hawke who acquired the map and gave Bartrand enough to fund the expedition. He also cleared the way for Bartrand. And while Bartrand stole it, he would of never had it if not for Hawke.[/quote]

It was his idea. He took it out. He sold it. We can argue all the day who is more important. Point I was making, Bartrand also had a hand in this and he is not seen as that important. And without Varric, Hawke would not have been able to do any of that. So Varric is the most important dude.

[quote]
Putting that aside, you are correct, Hawke becomes a legend by defying the templars or annuling. And this is also his purpose in his story, I actually should of mentioned this before. But I don't see how this refutes my point, we cannot see the consequences Hawke has on the conflict till the time in which Cassandra is telling the story, so while that act is important in DA3, it perhaps is less so in DA2.[/quote]

It's refuting the point you're making that Hawke is a legend because of the idol. Something that could have been removed entirely, since his legendary status is due to his defiance of templars or annulment.

[quote]
Ascension is just about as vaguely described as the Maker is. And by the logic, the relic seems to have the purpose or motivation to find new owners to possess and take over.[/quote]

Not really. We know the process in making the Reapers. The Maker is a religious story, he is not that important in the plot, other than being a diety people in that world worship. And if he does beco,mes important to the plot, we already have an idea what he is supposed to be.
And we don't know if the relic has a motivation, that implies sentience.

We only know it turns people crazy. That's it.

[quote]
1. It's a relic, made of raw lyrium, which seems to be corrupted or dangerious
2. We don't know yet
3. By dwarves of the old presumably.
4. Before the anicent dwarves as we knew them.
5. It seemed to speak and instruct Bartrand, so yes, somewhat
6. Because the relic probably saw him as most suspectible.
7. We don't know yet.[/quote]

All assumptions and speculation. None of which is explained and hinted at.
If the relic is shown to be sentient, then that owuld have been a big hint that would validate a lot of those assumptions.

[quote]
I could draw hundreds of questions about the Reapers as well, it's not a far comparasion.[/quote]

But we know a lot more about them. We know they are sentient. We know they built the Citadel and the mass relays. We know how they reproduce. We know where they are hiding....etc
Again, not saying they should tell us everything. But they shoudl tell us something.

[quote]
They did drop hints, quite alot, you just need to look deep into, I believe there is a topic about this somewhere. Though I do agree it may have been too subtle.[/quote]

Too vague, not too subtle. Having a song like a typical lyrium ring does not constitue a hint. It might as well just be excessive lyrium taht even dwarves can't resist.

[quote]
Most things about Flemeth is heresay at best. Most information contradicts each other and seems to hold little truth to them. But I understand and agree with what you're suggesting.

Best we agree to disagree, though I enjoy talking to you.
[/quote]

And heresay makes character and catches interest. That's the point. Yes, contradictions are good. But you udnerstand what I am saying, so I won't elaborate further.

And yea, I emphazised that this is my personal opinion and I am enjoying this too

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A minority still. And killing the Templars was an unwitnessed event, he still remains a templar afterwards. IT was not an explicit show of defiance to Meredith.

Sorry, I disagree. He is showing defiance, not only did he stall the mission he was given to remove the mages, he stood by and assisted in the death of his colleges, how is this not showing defiance? Thrask is going against everything he was told to support.

I think we are arguing semantics. I am not saying that everythign was fine in Act 2 or even Act 1. The conflict was building up. But like Varric said, Meredith became more oppressive after Act 2. 

Her becoming more oppressive would of happened anyway, the idol only sped up the proccess, anyway, from the way it is constructed Varric seems to say that over the 3 year gap between Act 2 and 3 Meredith was becoming more oppressive (as result of more mages going crazy on blood magic if you ask me) whereas most assume that she only got the sword at the beginning of Act 3, that's still 2-3 years of oppression regardless of the idol. But yeah, we are arguing semantics, I think that we both actually agree on the fundementals and tripping each other up on the small parts.

Insanity as the end result is not that interesting imo. It's how a person gets there that is interesting. And we don't see that with Meredith, which should have been done with or without idol.   

I agree 100% that the insanity angle was overplayed and overdone, I just didn't feel it made the game feel less mature or humane, just less well written. Again, semantics.

And that's fine, but it could have been told better imo. 

Agreed, but I think the writers felt it HAD to be written that way, probably because of events that will happen later in the DA universe.

It was his idea. He took it out. He sold it. We can argue all the day who is more important. Point I was making, Bartrand also had a hand in this and he is not seen as that important. And without Varric, Hawke would not have been able to do any of that. So Varric is the most important dude. 

But Bartrand could be replaced by anyone, Hawke could not. There was not many, if any people in Kirkwall who had his fighting experience against Darkspawn, cheap hiring price, courage and willingness. It had to be Hawke who found the idol, but it didn't have to be Bartrand who thought up looking for treasure. But that line of thought, Varric could of been removed as well and it could of been Hawke just picking up rumours of treasure underground...

It's refuting the point you're making that Hawke is a legend because of the idol. Something that could have been removed entirely, since his legendary status is due to his defiance of templars or annulment. 

That was never my point. My point was that the idol allowed for nessary connections between Hawke and the crisis point in Kirkwall. The defiance or annulment is the actions after the crisis point, of course Hawke has connections to what happened after but he needed connections to what happened before as well. Not that the writers did that in the best way.

Not really. We know the process in making the Reapers. The Maker is a religious story, he is not that important in the plot, other than being a diety people in that world worship. And if he does beco,mes important to the plot, we already have an idea what he is supposed to be. 
And we don't know if the relic has a motivation, that implies sentience. 

We only know it turns people crazy. That's it.

All assumptions and speculation. None of which is explained and hinted at. 
If the relic is shown to be sentient, then that owuld have been a big hint that would validate a lot of those assumptions. 

You make a good point, I don't think I can refute without being silly, so I admit defeat on this point.

And heresay makes character and catches interest. That's the point. Yes, contradictions are good. But you udnerstand what I am saying, so I won't elaborate further. 

I disagree, heresay is interesting, until you discover everything was a load of none sense with no relm of truth in it.

And yea, I emphazised that this is my personal opinion and I am enjoying this too [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

I enjoy it as well, it's nice to have civil and thought-provoking debate on these forums. Also nice to see you're still using my signature I made for you. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 15 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
Sorry, I disagree. He is showing defiance, not only did he stall the mission he was given to remove the mages, he stood by and assisted in the death of his colleges, how is this not showing defiance? Thrask is going against everything he was told to support.

I am referring to open defiance vis a vis Meredith. If he kills the Templars, no one knows about it. Meredith doesn't know about it (I assume). It's still internal defiance and a reaction. In Act 3, he is much more pro-active.

Her becoming more oppressive would of happened anyway, the idol only sped up the proccess, anyway, from the way it is constructed Varric seems to say that over the 3 year gap between Act 2 and 3 Meredith was becoming more oppressive (as result of more mages going crazy on blood magic if you ask me) whereas most assume that she only got the sword at the beginning of Act 3, that's still 2-3 years of oppression regardless of the idol.

I know it would have happened anwyays, and I would rather have had that, while it being more developped.
And correct me if I am wrong, but Meredith had the sword at Act 2. Bartrand sold the thing at Act 2. I assumed that she had it way before Act 3.

But Bartrand could be replaced by anyone, Hawke could not. There was not many, if any people in Kirkwall who had his fighting experience against Darkspawn, cheap hiring price, courage and willingness. It had to be Hawke who found the idol, but it didn't have to be Bartrand who thought up looking for treasure. But that line of thought, Varric could of been removed as well and it could of been Hawke just picking up rumours of treasure underground...

He could have been replaced by Wardens, who have much mroe experience.

We can play around all we want, the point I was making is that Hawke's importance has less to do with stumbling on an idol by accident, and more to do with what he did in Act 2 and Act 3, imo. At least that's what I think should be emphasized. 

That was never my point. My point was that the idol allowed for nessary connections between Hawke and the crisis point in Kirkwall. The defiance or annulment is the actions after the crisis point, of course Hawke has connections to what happened after but he needed connections to what happened before as well. Not that the writers did that in the best way.

There is already a personal connection, with Bethany / Carver (and Hawke himself if mage). And the connection could have been expanded upon much better without it, via other means. Which would have required more interaction with Meredith and Orsino.  And if the idol had to be there, they could throw in more hints and pieces.

I mean remember that the whole trailer was about destiny. Here, it's starting to sound more like acccident.
But they could have thrown hints that it was destined for Hawke to get the idol, or something.

I disagree, heresay is interesting, until you discover everything was a load of none sense with no relm of truth in it.

Heresay usually always has an element of truth in it. At least I think that's what Bioware is aiming for.
I agree that if Bioware is throwing in hearsay, then revealing the complete opposite, to be bad. But, at least in Origins, they kept in ambiguous and with a possible shred of truth. 

I enjoy it as well, it's nice to have civil and thought-provoking debate on these forums. Also nice to see you're still using my signature I made for you. 

LOL I thought your username was familiar!
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you fully before.

Haha yep, still using it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am referring to open defiance vis a vis Meredith. If he kills the Templars, no one knows about it. Meredith doesn't know about it (I assume). It's still internal defiance and a reaction. In Act 3, he is much more pro-active. 

The original notion I was making though was things were spiralling out of control already, whether or not Meredith was aware of the templars death doesn't matter, the fact is, tensions were raising and more sinister and radical acts were happening before Act 3. (Also you would think Meredith would notice a whole band of Templars disappeared).

I know it would have happened anwyays, and I would rather have had that, while it being more developped.
And correct me if I am wrong, but Meredith had the sword at Act 2. Bartrand sold the thing at Act 2. I assumed that she had it way before Act 3. 

I thought he sold it in Starkhaven and it somehow made its way towards Kirkwall by trade. I guess this is something that is never fully explained. I assumed she aquired it just before Act 3.

He could have been replaced by Wardens, who have much mroe experience. .

A Warden wouldn't travel to a Dwarven Thaig in search of treasure because their pockets are hurting..I'm sure they have more important things to do..like push back any of the remaining darkspawn. 

We can play around all we want, the point I was making is that Hawke's importance has less to do with stumbling on an idol by accident, and more to do with what he did in Act 2 and Act 3, imo. At least that's what I think should be emphasized.  

I never denied this, but the idol does have SOMETHING to do with it and to be fair, his acts in Act 2 do not effect Thedas as much as the action of finding the idol in Act 1 and its consequence in Act 3 have on Thedas. The Qunari knew they were either going to rule or die, either way it didn't matter to them as long as they answered the Qun.

There is already a personal connection, with Bethany / Carver (and Hawke himself if mage). And the connection could have been expanded upon much better without it, via other means. Which would have required more interaction with Meredith and Orsino.  And if the idol had to be there, they could throw in more hints and pieces. 

I think you misunderstand, I meant an actual active connection. Not in terms of his personal connection but his actual connection in what is happening, it's hard to word correctly, basically his plot purpose and connection to the Crisis point. How he made things unfold the way they did, it's safe to say that the second treaty proporsition may have been accepted had it not being for the idol, however it was there because of HAWKE'S CONNECTION.

I mean remember that the whole trailer was about destiny. Here, it's starting to sound more like acccident. 
But they could have thrown hints that it was destined for Hawke to get the idol, or something. 

Well an accident may be the act of destiny. An accident is something you create unpurposeully,f how ever just because YOU didn't do it on purpose, didn't mean that it wasn't destiny. I think the destiny angle is something down to opinion but I think it is destiny for Hawke.

Think of it like this, the idol set everything in motion, made Hawke rich, which in turn got the Viscount's attention, which caused Hawke to get the Arishok's attention, and finally it caused the conflict in act 3 and because Hawke got the Arishok's attentioned and became Champion he was then brought into this conflict, which caused him to become a legend. So if you think about, the Idol is the cause FOR EVERYTHING. Whether you consider that destiny or not is subjective, I do.

Heresay usually always has an element of truth in it. At least I think that's what Bioware is aiming for.
I agree that if Bioware is throwing in hearsay, then revealing the complete opposite, to be bad. But, at least in Origins, they kept in ambiguous and with a possible shred of truth.

Fair dues.

LOL I thought your username was familiar!
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you fully before.

Haha yep, still using it.

No problem, it was a long time ago and I became very inactive for a while, so I don't expect you to remember me that well. 

Maybe I should start creating some DA2 signatures soon though.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 15 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
The original notion I was making though was things were spiralling out of control already, whether or not Meredith was aware of the templars death doesn't matter, the fact is, tensions were raising and more sinister and radical acts were happening before Act 3. (Also you would think Meredith would notice a whole band of Templars
disappeared).

While tensions were growing, I don't think it was spiraling out of control perse. I'm basing that on the Divine thinking that an exalted march is necessary only in Act 3. But I agree, the situation was not great in Act 2 or even Act 1, so I guess it's semantics.

I thought he sold it in Starkhaven and it somehow made its way towards Kirkwall by trade. I guess this is something that is never fully explained. I assumed she aquired it just before Act 3.

It should have been explained.

A Warden wouldn't travel to a Dwarven Thaig in search of treasure because their pockets are hurting..I'm sure they have more important things to do..like push back any of the remaining darkspawn.

Nate was in the deep roads. They might want to join a Warden expedition and in the process, stumble upon the idol. Anything could have happened that didn't really require Hawke.

I never denied this, but the idol does have SOMETHING to do with it and to be fair, his acts in Act 2 do not effect Thedas as much as the action of finding the idol in Act 1 and its consequence in Act 3 have on Thedas. The Qunari knew they were either going to rule or die, either way it didn't matter to them as long as they answered the Qun.

Since I believe the situation could have exploded anyways, which is something you also said, the idol doens't become necessary for the story to take place.

Yes, it has something to do with it, but we know almost nothing about it and Meredith had no character development to compensate. That's my main issue.

I think you misunderstand, I meant an actual active connection. Not in terms of his personal connection but his actual connection in what is happening, it's hard to word correctly, basically his plot purpose and connection to the Crisis point. How he made things unfold the way they did, it's safe to say that the second treaty proporsition may have been accepted had it not being for the idol, however it was there because of HAWKE'S CONNECTION.

A personal connection can entail an active connection to the plot. And his connection to Anders, who sparks the whole thing, is also an active connection. But Hawke does not have to be the main instigator in this. If that was Bioware's intent, then not only do I think it failed to convey it properly, but I also dislike the idea of making Hawke way too important. 

The Warden in DA:O didn't require that much active connection to make him important.

Think of it like this, the idol set everything in motion, made Hawke rich, which in turn got the Viscount's attention, which caused Hawke to get the Arishok's attention, and finally it caused the conflict in act 3 and because Hawke got the Arishok's attentioned and became Champion he was then brought into this conflict, which caused him to become a legend. So if you think about, the Idol is the cause FOR EVERYTHING. Whether you consider that destiny or not is subjective, I do.

Unless indications are shown to me that the idol is some sort of sentient being or is being used by a sentient being, I'll see that as a string of coincidences. but that's not really the main point.

And the idol did not make Hawke rich. It's the treasure he found there. Had there been no idol, he still would have been rich.

No problem, it was a long time ago and I became very inactive for a while, so I don't expect you to remember me that well. 

Maybe I should start creating some DA2 signatures soon though.

You should! Except I don't think I'd change my sigs.
Butr you're talented and the community would thrive with such talent.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 09:35 .

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
While tensions were growing, I don't think it was spiraling out of control perse. I'm basing that on the Divine thinking that an exalted march is necessary only in Act 3. But I agree, the situation was not great in Act 2 or even Act 1, so I guess it's semantics.

Agreed and yes the whole situation about the purchase of the idol should have been explained.

Nate was in the deep roads. They might want to join a Warden expedition and in the process, stumble upon the idol. Anything could have happened that didn't really require Hawke. 

Nate was in the deep roads nearly 5+ years after Hawke, and from what I could tell, he seemed to be following Hawke and Co's footsteps in through the deep roads anyway. So I don't feel that this could of happened had Hawke not been there.

Since I believe the situation could have exploded anyways, which is something you also said, the idol doens't become necessary for the story to take place. 

Yes, it has something to do with it, but we know almost nothing about it and Meredith had no character development to compensate. That's my main issue.

While I agree it would exploded, I think we need to assess if it would truly do the same amount of damage. WW1 would of eventually of happened, but had it not happened when it did, there is debate as to whether it would of being so destructive. Same applies here, the crisis at Act 3 happens at the worse possible time, Tevinter is still struggling against Qunari while slavers are infesting more cities, Fereldan is at breaking point with Orlais and still suffering the aftershocks of the blight and Templars are slowly breaking away from the Chantry and the whole of Thedas seems worse for wear.

The relic was required for it to blow over at the perfect moment for the most harm and destruction.

A personal connection can entail an active connection to the plot. And his connection to Anders, who sparks the whole thing, is also an active connection. But Hawke does not have to be the main instigator in this. If that was Bioware's intent, then not only do I think it failed to convey it properly, but I also dislike the idea of making Hawke way too important. 

The Warden in DA:O didn't require that much active connection to make him important. 

I disagree, without the Warden I think it's safe to say that it would of taken MUCH longer for the blight to have ended. Alistair didn't have the character or leadership to accomplish what the Warden did and not only that, he could not fight for his crown and fight the Archdemon alone. 

Hawke also needs this, a reason for his existant beyond what happens after the crisis, the idol provides this. While I don't thing he needs to be WAY too important, he had to have some importance or Cassandra's search for him makes little sense.

Unless indications are shown to me that the idol is some sort of sentient being or is being used by a sentient being, I'll see that as a string of coincidences. but that's not really the main point.

And the idol did not make Hawke rich. It's the treasure he found there. Had there been no idol, he still would have been rich. 

Coincidence and destiny..I could rant on this for a while, but it would probably severly detrail the topic. So I'll leave it to being about opinion.

But the Idol was the cause of Hawke becoming rich. Had he not found the idol, Bertand would not of locked them out, forcing them to follow another route, which lead them to the Rock Wraith and treasure that awaited.  And the Idol was the cause of Bertrand locking them in (you see where this is going right?).

You should! Except I don't think I'd change my sigs. 
Butr you're talented and the community would thrive with such talent.

I like your signatures, keep them. I'll probably get to work during easter, I'm too busy at the moment to sit and do some proper signatures. But thanks for the encouragement .

Modifié par MortalEngines, 15 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...
The relic was required for it to blow over at the perfect moment for the most harm and destruction.[/quote]

I think it was the perfect moment irrespective of the idol. And I think the major event is the death of the Viscount and the Qunari incursion. That made Meredith step in and take more power than she already had. And since she did, she essentially kept the office of Viscount empty and started to assume more and more power, and was more oblivious to the Grand Cleric.

That, imo, was the recipee for disaster. Meredith already had a lot of influence, hence why Kirkwall had the most repressed circle. But making Meredith take even more power led to it getting out of control.[/quote]

That's why I do not feel that the idol was necessary. I don't want to resort to the "power corrupts" cliche, but power certainly changes people and applies more and more pressure, both physical and mental. That would have been a good way to develop Meredith's character. That she feels that with the Qunari attack, that only she and her Templars can preserve order and as that burden keeps crushing her, she starts to lose it. Showing us that, imo, is much more interesting than having the idol.


[quote]
I disagree, without the Warden I think it's safe to say that it would of taken MUCH longer for the blight to have ended. Alistair didn't have the character or leadership to accomplish what the Warden did and not only that, he could not fight for his crown and fight the Archdemon alone. 

Hawke also needs this, a reason for his existant beyond what happens after the crisis, the idol provides this. While I don't thing he needs to be WAY too important, he had to have some importance or Cassandra's search for him makes little sense.[/quote]

But it's by accident, whereas the Warden didn't defeat the blight by accident. That's first.
Second, without Hawke, the Arishok would have probably been succesful. He had hostages and was only willing to have a duel with Hawke and not anyone else.
Thirdly, I think only Hawke would have been able to defeat Meredith and Orsino.

That is more than enough to make him important imo.

[quote]
But the Idol was the cause of Hawke becoming rich. Had he not found the idol, Bertand would not of locked them out, forcing them to follow another route, which lead them to the Rock Wraith and treasure that awaited.  And the Idol was the cause of Bertrand locking them in (you see where this is going right?).[/quote]

Bartrand locked them up because of his greed (it's the location of the thaig that he thinks is valuable). We do not know if the idol exerted control over him by that point. You're applying circular logic, starting with the assumption that the idol is important, thus everything happened exactly as it happened. It really didn't have ande we have no indication that the idol is  part of a master plan or a great design.  

So no, I see a string of coincidences. I am not saying it's implausible that this was all destined. But let the game hint at it (I repeat, the thereal golem was useless and that quest was a wasted opportunity). We had almost nothing and this all purely speculation with very very little hints.  

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's why I do not feel that the idol was necessary. I don't want to resort to the "power corrupts" cliche, but power certainly changes people and applies more and more pressure, both physical and mental. That would have been a good way to develop Meredith's character. That she feels that with the Qunari attack, that only she and her Templars can preserve order and as that burden keeps crushing her, she starts to lose it. Showing us that, imo, is much more interesting than having the idol. 

For all we know that is what happened. By your logic, we understand nothing of the idol, prehaps it didn't influence her at all until she attempted to draw power from it? You called many points I bring foward as assumption, but the whole notion of the idol being a constant corruptive force is also an assumption, we don't know for sure, we just assume.

But I agree, that sounds more interesting than the idol.

But it's by accident, whereas the Warden didn't defeat the blight by accident. That's first.
Second, without Hawke, the Arishok would have probably been succesful. He had hostages and was only willing to have a duel with Hawke and not anyone else. 
Thirdly, I think only Hawke would have been able to defeat Meredith and Orsino.

That is more than enough to make him important imo. 

 This isn't a question of accident. but of purpose in the story. The action that led to Hawke being important doesn't matter, the only thing that matters was he did become important and there was a reason (regardless whether its lacklustre or not).

It could equally be said that without Hawke, the Arishok would of never attacked Kirkwall, I can't remember the reason off the top of my head but I specificly remember Varric and Cassandra hinting that the Arishok may never had spurred into motion if it not for Hawke (and Isabela, I guess).

Bartrand locked them up because of his greed (it's the location of the thaig that he thinks is valuable). 

Debately, Varric states that Bartrand is a man of his word and rarely tends to act on any greed that he was thinking. I think it's safe to think that the relic amplified the greed he may have felt at the moment, this isn't a mere assumption, you can draw evidence from how the characters talk about it (specially how Bartrand talks about it if Anders temperarly cures him).

Bartrand locked them up because of his greed (it's the location of the thaig that he thinks is valuable). We do not know if the idol exerted control over him by that point. You're applying circular logic, starting with the assumption that the idol is important, thus everything happened exactly as it happened. It really didn't have ande we have no indication that the idol is  part of a master plan or a great design.  


Anyway I'm tired, so I'll head to bed and continue this another day.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
For all we know that is what happened. By your logic, we understand nothing of the idol, prehaps it didn't influence her at all until she attempted to draw power from it? You called many points I bring foward as assumption, but the whole notion of the idol being a constant corruptive force is also an assumption, we don't know for sure, we just assume.

And if it did hapen, they should show us. And no, not have Meredith tell us. But make us feel it.  With character interactions (like the arishok) and if not, cutscenes and talkign to people who know her personally, like the Grand Cleric.
The reasons for Meredith's downfall can be obvious. But show them and more importantly, show us how she is progressing. Details like that make character.

And that's why I've been saying that if they want to bring something like the idol, at least explain a bit, because we have no idea what it is. The perfect opportunity was in Varric's quest.
What we do know with Bartrand is that it drives people completely nuts, which is like lyrium just more amplified that it affects dwarves.

Ambiguity is fine and even desirable. Complete ignorance is not.

It could equally be said that without Hawke, the Arishok would of never attacked Kirkwall, I can't remember the reason off the top of my head but I specificly remember Varric and Cassandra hinting that the Arishok may never had spurred into motion if it not for Hawke (and Isabela, I guess).

Hawke had nothing to do with it. It was Isabela. And they were both lucky they got caught in a storm and landed in Kirkwall. Hawke really has nothing to do with causing the thing. It was Isabela (Castillon), Sister Petrice and the Arishok. 

If the storm was elsewhere, they would have been in a different city.

Debately, Varric states that Bartrand is a man of his word and rarely tends to act on any greed that he was thinking. I think it's safe to think that the relic amplified the greed he may have felt at the moment, this isn't a mere assumption, you can draw evidence from how the characters talk about it (specially how Bartrand talks about it if Anders temperarly cures him).

The idol did not amplify Bartrand's greed, it turn him into a murdering lunatic, which has nothing to do with greed.
The fact that it may turn one crazy, does not mean it's part of a grand design, knowing exactly the strings to pull. It could just be like lyrium, only more effective. If it was part of a grand design, it would be cheap and meh imo, but it wasn't even hinted at in the game.

Anyway I'm tired, so I'll head to bed and continue this another day.

Goodnight!

[Dean_the_Young]

Before I throw in a few points of consideration. I'd like to say, seeing the two of you carry on an intelligent, but respectful, argument on both sides is very enjoyable. Kudos to both of you: while I may lean more one way than another, I think you both make valid points, and want to thank you both.

To start off, I do agree with KoP that the Idol certainly should have been handled differently, and was a poor substitute for character development. This applies more to the First Enchanter, who didn't even have the Idol's Influence to fall back on.

Both characters could have used a little more leeway in all acts: perhaps a discrete, impersonal quest in Act 1 that gave a bit of insight towards either (such as indirectly playing gopher for Orisano in a quest that shows his sympathy, and willingness to play underhanded with the Templars, in support of some mages who we might later learn were helping apostates: an indirect find-the-apostate quest for Meredith, with a payment of gratitude if you can bring them in without violence, representative of her stern sympathy for them). In Act 2, we could have even had direct interaction/quests for them as a person of note: something worth mention in Act 3 as a basis for their trust/dislike of us, with even easier use of characterization. In Meredith's case particularly, it could have given us a basis for comparing her pre-idol to post-idol: development is hard to establish in a transition, but being able to track the difference is a part of it, and an Act 2 mission might have even had us having a hand in getting the idol to her, in a smiliar way to us having a hand in Anders deed. And if we really wanted to go all the way, we could have turned over the White Lilly Killer's notes and research to Orisono, 'for safety' or somesuch.

More characterization would have fixed a lagging. That's undoubtable, and could have been fixed easily enough (I would think).

Where I disagree with KoP, I think, is whether the idol was bad as a plot device. I actually liked it, both for it's mysterious air and for the effect it had on Meredith. It resolved my biggest through in Act 3, which was 'how the heck could such an incompetent Knight Commander have risen up the ranks'? I think the idol being a part of her (ir)rationality was a good thing, and I appreciated it as a part of the perfect storm of suck that enveloped Kirkwall: I think having Meredith be an irrational actor at the end was a good factor of the 'there can be no compromise now' setup which set the mages, as blood-mage infested as they were, as the 'reasonable' actors.

But again, I agree it should have expanded. It should have been a part of her character development, not in lieu of it, and the idol itself should have had more exposition, or exploration. The Grey Wardens seemed interested enough in the Thaig: why not let them have some legends about it? They certainly have a lot of old secrets.

[Carmen_Willow]

@KnightofPhoenix

I read what I could of this thread at lunch today, and agreed with you. I wrote a few days ago that I felt the "the lyrium god made me do it" and "the spirit made me do it" reasoning behind Meredith and Anders were essentially cop outs and destroyed the drama that was building for the climax. People are quite capable of the evil that Meredith and Anders perpetrated without the help of outside forces. I was very disappointed. And Orsino's tantrum and transmutation was totally unbelievable in the context of the story. It was so contrived as to break immersion for me.

Perhaps more cut scenes would have helped, but the story would have been more dramatic if it had just been their own human failings that caused the grief.

As a part of this, I am constantly amazed at those who didn't notice how very angry Anders was in Awakenings. Yes, he said a lot of "humorous" things in DA:A; however, the humor was biting and sarcastic. I thought his VA did an excellent job of conveying the rage beneath the humor in Awakenings. I knew he was going to do something--I just didn't expect something so evil.

Act 2 had started to be something quite good....Act 3 was a let down.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You're welcome Dean

I agree, having quests that have us deal with Orsino and Meredith in Act 1, perhaps even indirectly via seconds (Cullen and a mage), would have been more preferable than the go fetch sidequests that feel very useless (50 silvers is not worth it either). The immediate incentive is money, seeing how you need it. And it introduces you not only to the Templar / Mage conflict (which is not hard to introduce), but also, as importantly imo, to the characters that should represent the conflict (I assume that's why they both appear staring at each other when we start the game).

As for the idol. I personally would have preferred if it was removed completely. But I do think it could have been interesting if explored and if it complimented character development and did not replace it (you explained it more eloquently than me).

I think a good example here is Saren. We know from the beginning that he fought in the First Contact War. We know from Anderson what he was like and that he hated humans. We got a hint of it during the investigation. Then in Virmire (best plot-twist exposition since the Leviathan in Kotor imo), we find out that Saren is possibly being controlled and not only that, we get an understanding of who might be controlling him. We see Saren progressing as a character (also him getting angry cutscene). He expressed doubt implicitly, like when he yells "No! Sovereign needs me!", and explicitly (the whole point of the installation is to resist Sovereign and indoctrination). We get the feeling that he was delusional, overconfident and that Sovereign is tricking him. Then in the finale, we see him having lost all control but still ends up resisting if encouraged. And posssibly redeeming himself.

That, imo, was exterior influence done right. We had some understanding of what the Reapers are, though a lot of it was kept ambiguous which was fine, and we got to see Saren's character develop and evolve. I personally prefer characters like Loghain, but I think Meredith being a Saren like figure, would have been a good way of including the idol in the story and making her an interesting character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saren as an analogy works well, I agree. And, consequently, would require the Idol to be expanded upon, which could only have been for the better. The Ethereal Golem made no since in so many respects: how would an actual golem predate the Anvil? I agree with you: mystery doesn't mean a lack of information.


I suppose I should raise this question to you, then: are there any particular bits of characterization you would have liked to see expanded upon?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Ethereal Golem made no since in so many respects: how would an actual golem predate the Anvil? I agree with you: mystery doesn't mean a lack of information.

I really have no idea.

I suppose I should raise this question to you, then: are there any particular bits of characterization you would have liked to see expanded upon?

I like the idea that Meredith thought that the song or voices she heard was that of the Maker. It's like a dark version of Leliana.

That I think could have been expanded upon and would have been more subtle than Saren / Sovereign (Saren had no delusions what Sovereign is. He had delusions about the motivation of the Reapers and how they think).
Meredith acquires the lyrium thing and crafts it into an amulet (because a sword reminds me too much of soul edge). Then she starts hearing a melody, perhaps with a voice, and she interprets that, perhaps after a lot of self-doubt, as the Maker talking to her.

This would be happening right after Act 2, where the burden of controlling Kirkwall which she thinks she needs to do, would be wearing her down physically and mentally. If we had interactions with her before and after, we can see subtle differences in her mannerisms and in her justifications. Before, she can offer more pragmatic reasons. After, she can sound much more religious in rethoric, invoking the name of the Maker often.

Then maybe have a small confrontation with her prior to the end game, where we see her hesitating and rambling. Possibly referring to the Maker more as if she's in correspondence with him. Showing hints that she's starting to think she's going mad, then brushing it off quickly. Then at the end, we see her lose it and openly starts talking to the Maker (like she does in the game).

That would have made her an interesting and tragic character.    

As for the idol itself. I am not sure, since I don't know what its main purpose is, if it has one. But a few codexes. Stories. Legends...etc. The thing with the song can be expanded a bit. Remember that the Maker was attracted by Andraste's music. Here, it's almost the reverse. It's a shilling analogy imo. That maybe Andraste was herself attracted by the music of lyrium. Maybe it's related to the old Gods as well. And instead of having the ethereal golem, which served no purpose, have the idol be explored more.

Those two things combined, would have made Meredith a much deeper character. And the idol, a more interesting and mysterious plot twist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 11:52 .

[jesot]

MortalEngines wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Human error implies at least some knowledge of what it is your are dealing with. Here, you have no idea what the idol is. It's not an error to find it and take it with you.

Human error doesn't nessarily mean you must know what you are dealing with. The dictionary meaning of human error is a mistake made by a person rather than being caused by a poorly designed process or the malfunctioning of a machine such as a computer. Just because I didn't know that, the king wasn't allergic to nuts, doesn't mean it isn't human error, as the new chef, I didn't know I was dealing with allegies. It's an error to see the relic causing mental distress (in the case of Bertrand) and still allow it to circulate around unchecked, without attempting to apphend or track it down.

And that's all fine and dandy, I am not arguing about the plausibility (it's magic). I am arguing that this was a poor way to communicate the story and I felt it stripped it of humanity. Because nefarious artifacts that turn people insane is not human. Finding it might be, but in and of itself, it isn't. 

I disagree, the relic didn't make Meredith insane, rather it preyed on her already defined parania and obssesions, slowly escalating it and ampilifying it, eventually this point in the story would of happen, the relic caused it to happen sooner. Rather than seeing the relic as the cause, you should see the dogma, tradition and mindset of templars, chantry and mages as the cause, it will definately interject much more humanity to the situation.

What should have been done is focus on the actual conflict itself and the characters implicated in it and how escallated.

Slight contradiction, early you stated that you felt, the relic was unexplained, and now you call for LESS focus on it and more focus on other areas. All this would do is raise more questions about the relic and leave it more unrealistic (I use this term loosely). The conflict and characters were built up, but subtly, throughout all three acts. I do agree though that there should of been more emphasis in the final act of the game.

It didn't need to have an unknown idol. That would have been much more interesting. And I don't care about making Hawke the most important person ever (by accident). I care about his place in the larger picture and his interactions with people. If that was Bioware's intent, then I will express my dissapointment.  

You may no care, but most players do. You are HAWKE, you are the CHAMPION. If your character and his actions mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, the character has no point, no purpose. The relic gives Hawke a purpose and influence in the story. You already see people complain that Hawke was rather underwhelming, removing the relic would increase this.

And if there was going to be an exterior influence, then make it like Saren and Sovereign. That was perfectly written. We see Saren progressing and changing. Rationalizing himself. Doubting. Then losing control. Then finally potentially redeeming himself. THAT is exterior non-human influence done right, which did not strip Saren of his "humanity". Because the indoctrination of Saren was subtle. With Meredith, we got a small glimpse of all that in the last 5 minutes only and it was far from being subtle (evil sword, red eyes, jumping in the air). That, plus we had an idea what the reapers are, vs the nothing we know of the idol.

While Saren might of had humanity, the reaper did not. Actually the reaper (I forgot it's name), is even less human and mature than the relic. The relic may have a story, a reason that it does what it does, maybe a distressed dwarf forged it after losing his long lost love and within it, his own growing insanity was welded within. The reapers however appear to be just destructive creatures, their whole purpose of being is to destory. How is this more humane than a magic relic? 

Meredith, throughout the fight, also questions herself and if you see, she believes that the power she is drawing on is that of the maker, not of some crazy relic. She believes the maker is empowering her, that she is carrying out his duty. If that wasn't a window into her mind, what is?

The idol was fine when it was confined to Bartrand and left up in the air as a bit of a looming side story.

Meredith never once seemed like an unreasonable person throughout the entire game (until she randomly turned into lyrium demon lady at the very end).  She had every right to carry on the way she was going.  Name one crazy thing she did before turning into Lyrium Demon.  One.

Meredith sought more control over the Circle because they were churning out blood mages right and left.  It made sense that she was in the position she was in and it made even more sense why she was trying to control the mages.  They WERE becoming a real danger and Orsino wasn't doing **** about it.  All we're asking is that we get to know Meredith a little bit better.

And that was an interesting point that they could have used to develop Orsino - he never got into the business of weeding out blood mages...  Because the Kirkwall Circle was in inner strife on whether to use it or not - and apparently everyone in that Circle was well-practiced in it...especially Orsino himself.  This story is interesting - the only problem being that we don't know who Orsino is...he shows up to distract the qunari so you can get to the Arishok and he shows up in the Fade...and that's it!  The reason you side with the mages is to protect the innocent because Meredith became genocidal after the Chantry blew up (the last straw).

I felt the mages were in the wrong 99% of the time, but you fought for the mages because you believe that it's the work of a few (especially if your Hawke is a mage) - turns out you're sort of wrong when it comes to the mages in Kirkwall...

I liked the Harvester, but the idol with Meredith was pointless.  It would have only made sense if Meredith had truly gone mad (which she never showed any signs of until the very end).  But she was a perfectly rational character a la Arishok until they went with the good ol' "A wizard did it" (great line early in the game...love the foreshadowing with hindsight) cop out.

Modifié par jesot, 16 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[CitizenSnips]

By mid way through Act 3 I was so annoyed with both sides I just didn't give a **** what happened. Every mage and templar seemed to be bent on being as evil as possible to each other and every other citizen in the city with very few exceptions. Bioware seems to want to give the player a reason to hate either side and ends up giving the player every reason to hate both sides. Given the choice I would have killed every templar and mage in that city- not for being a mage or templar, but for being terrible people.

Coincidentally, this is almost exactly what happens through weird NPC choices and lazy writing. I support the mages' cause but end up having to hunt apostates for Meredith. Then the "good" group of templars working with mages kidnap my sibling and THEN try to kill me. This was about the point at which I asked "Why do I have to support either of these factions?" Skip forward to the final battles- Orsino inexplicably turns from wanting freedom for mages to turning into a blood mage harvester and then, in the end, I kill Meredith and... walk away. No explanation of the idol, no resolution for Hawke or my companions. Leliana then shows up, regardless of whether or not The Warden killed her in the first game, and resolves absolutely nothing. She only hints and stuff most likely reserved for a future expansion and DA3. It's just a mess.

There are a few gems, like Anders bombing the chantry, but overall Act 1 and 2 were much better. The Arishok was also a much, much better antagonist. The story just seems to fall apart after Act 2.

[boraxalmighty]

You guys are killing me. Anyone upset at the ending of this game just doesn't get it. This game was made to explain the questions, not answer them. It's the game that the future of the series will be based off of. The art of storytelling just seems lost on most of you. You guys want answers to everything right now and that is not going to happen. It's not lazy writing it's the limits of the storyteller's (Varric) knowledge. We know what he knows. He doesn't know what the idol is as does nobody. It has become a warden issue as you find out in the game. This happens when you are building a larger story than one that takes place over the course of a single game. This game is the introduction of a story arc that could span several games and throughout the entire age. Giving you every answer in this game kinda defeats the purpose.