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Act 2: awesome. Act 3 conclusion: garbage. What went wrong?


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#201
CitizenSnips

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boraxalmighty wrote...

You guys are killing me. Anyone upset at the ending of this game just doesn't get it. This game was made to explain the questions, not answer them. It's the game that the future of the series will be based off of. The art of storytelling just seems lost on most of you. You guys want answers to everything right now and that is not going to happen. It's not lazy writing it's the limits of the storyteller's (Varric) knowledge. We know what he knows. He doesn't know what the idol is as does nobody. It has become a warden issue as you find out in the game. This happens when you are building a larger story than one that takes place over the course of a single game. This game is the introduction of a story arc that could span several games and throughout the entire age. Giving you every answer in this game kinda defeats the purpose.


Ah ok.

I don't like the story not because it's bad, but because I am an idiot.

#202
Fennel

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This game was made to explain the questions, not answer them


And guess what? Just because it was made that way does not make it enjoyable, fun, or good.

By the way: Ad hominem attacks like yours don't really show that your argument has merit. They show that you have no real argument, and need to rely on insults to get anywhere. That is rather pathetic, to be honest.

#203
Foolsfolly

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Real life has no ending or climax. It has no closure for those who survive. Things just happen.

Stories are ordered in such a way that there is a climax and there is closure. We like this in our stories because we like our stories to make sense. Whenever something just happens "just because" in a story we instantly dislike it. There has to be a reason in a story, in real life there doesn't have to be a direct reason.

So just because you believe the story was meant to explain the questions and not answer them does not mean that story has any merit.

The events in the third act just happen. There's some foreshadowing on this (I was worried Anders would go Hulk Smash at the slight drop of the hat throughout the game but I didn't foresee THAT big of a Hulk Smash) but largely it just happens. Especially, the First Enchanter being a Blood Mage and the Knight-Commander being crazy because the Plot Device sang her to be so.

So it feels artificial to us, the player. And a story who's whole point is to only ask the question that started the telling of the story is not a good story. There has to be an answering otherwise all you need to know about the game is the opening cutscene.

Champion was involved, the Chantry's in pieces, and the world's on the brink of war. Why? Screw you, that's why, sucka!

#204
Zambling

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well with what happens from act 2-3 it does not allow for much room to make a whole other game in the series except for possibility of Quanari to invade Kirkwall again for revenge.

I personally enjoyed act 3 because it summarized up all the events nicely. Meredith avoiding the champion all those years because of the possession of her nice brand new idol. Depending on who you sided with (if you chose the right one (mages) it breathes room for another Dragon age game in full effect.

Having Anders blow up the Chantry to start a war between the templars and mages across all of Thedas and finding out the enchanter was dealing with blood magic which explains all the blood mages in Kirkland and then also killing Meredith who was driven by corruption of the idol.(I say right path because you get Conqueror secret achievement if you do so) which also plays with Origins achievements ( a dark promise with Morrigan and then the dlc Witch Hunt which later followed and my best guess is that it will happen with Hawke aswell possiblity of meeting Flemoth again or Merrill rebuilding the mirror and communicating with Morrigan and the hero of fereldin or Trevinter Imperium for all I know)

I can't wait for the next dragon age, this act and game breathed alot of life into the series about what is going on outside of Fereldin and possibly majority of Thedas. Then seeing Leliana with the seeker looking for The hero of Fereldin and champion to possibly stop or control the war between Templars and Mages going on. Then finding out that they have disappeared which my guess believes that Flemoth and Morrigan have something to do with this... Started off slow and boring and then ended off perfectly satisfying. Bravo Bioware.

Modifié par Zambling, 16 mars 2011 - 07:37 .


#205
Foolsfolly

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I'm not entirely sure the Mages are the correct choice. From a game play perspective it seems most of them are blood mages. And there's another thread kicking around here about the Band of Three notes and how the Fade is thin around Kirkwall, which may explain the high number of blood mages in Kirkwall's Circle.

Choosing to let that madness seep out into the world could be a very bad thing. At least with the Knight-Commander dead a less crazy zealot will lead the Kirkwall Templars (Cullen, who's actually a decent guy in the finale).

And if you side with the Templars you get a secret achievement. Achievements don't make something 'right.' Besides the ending's the same either way: Templars break away from the Chantry and the Mages start a revolution.

#206
Zambling

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by secret achievement for the Templars im guessing you mean "mage hunter" siding with the templars 5 times, same goes for "arcane defender" siding with the mages 5 times. I just believe the true ending is going to be the mage route because of the achievement that resembles "A Dark Promise" which carries onto Witch Hunt dlc which is "Conqueror" in this game and guessing future dlc will prove this.

Im sure with more DLC they will explain more and why the disappearance of the Heroes of both games and why the Chantry is pursuing them. I agree with Cullen being a fine leader and going by instinct Orsino looks like an evil dude who would deal with blood magic even before the Champion arrived and possibility taught some of his followers.

You could be right with the Fade being thin causing the blood magic dwelling in Kirkwall, I have not read much of the band of three. Then again you would expect your sister to know blood magic then with my proposition.  It would explain being approached by a demon right  when you enter the Fade that is trying to possess you, and even how easily Isabela fell for it also if you took her. (Merrill and Justice the same to temptation)

Anyways im sure the Qunari will be back on the prowl to invade certain spots of weakened Thedas that are Wartorn between the mages and templars new found love for eachother thanks to Anders in the next installment of the series, I am greatly looking forward to it and to find out what happened to the Hero of Fereldin and Champion of Kirkwall.  My guess is Flemoth and Morrigan have something to do with it because Flemoth encounters both heroes in the series and did not play much of a roll in this game, the mirror is very important but hard to judge what is the outcome right now to what is on the other side and if Hawke communicates with your old Warden with Merrill's mirror.  Possibility of Meredith's Irium infused statue body playing a roll or maybe Merrill rebuilding the mirror for some certain cause, could be someone else infact, maybe even Flemoth to get back to Morrigan and eat her :crying: i hope not...  She does say she has unfinished business with Morrigan and will find her thanks to ****** Hawke.

Modifié par Zambling, 16 mars 2011 - 08:25 .


#207
DarKStaR82391

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Act 3 is supposed to not have any character development, it's only 3 quests long if you dont do any side mission or companion quests. They could have made it have more but i feel like if they did that, then it'd be all just be either rescuing or killing blood mages which you do for basically all 3 quests, since even with character progression, the intentions still stays the same.

It was explained that the Arishok had planned to attack the city so not much of character progression for him except for him respecting you more. And beating act 2 didn't have much of an impact as act 3. Act 3, your character obviously changed the world.

Meredith was a crazy **** with or without the lyrium and i really don't care if she could make the statues move. I think that if she didn't have the magic, it'd probably be a more boring fight like the Arishok fight. That fight was terrible, i use my abilities then my potions, then my abilities again. At least on the last fight, i had to actually control my party and tell them who and when to use the abilities. I like the idea of the duel, but not fun if you play a tank.

Why they made her use the lyrium? To tie it back to act 1 when they found it. Same as getting your sister back too. Most good stories usually tie the end to the beginning. Plus there was some wtf moments in act 3 like the chantry blowing up, was not expecting that! and i agree with previous posts that Orsino turning to blood magic is stupid.

#208
jfp2004

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Act III had some very strong moments, I thought, but I agree here.

Act II just had a sense of rising tension and it felt like it went together very well, leading up towards the inevitable conclusion that could only be delayed for so long. Everything from trying to keep the situation under control while racing against the clock to figure out what's going on was handled very well. And the Arishok was a strong opponent that I was able to relate to and understand; it was inevitable that he and Hawke were going to be at odds sooner or later, but on the other hand, depending on how you played, you could at least develop a sense of respect. Fighting Orsinio and Meredith in Act III was more of a "you're both nuts, and you leave me no choice but to fight both of you because of poor decisions" whereas fighting the Arishok was more of a "I respect you, I understand where you're coming from, but I can't let you do this."

To me, at least. It's entirely subjective.

#209
Alphram

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My problem with Act III is that it really feels like they wrote the ending for the Templar side first, then either ran out of time, or just decided to make the key events/fights for that fit for the Mage side. I played Templar supporter first, and aside from the whole Deus ex Machina idol argument, I thought the events unfolded rather understandably, and well. When I played as a mage supporter, however, most of the same events were mostly "WTF" moments. Oddly, the key event that seemed the most forced was Cullen's turning on the Knight-Commander at the end, because she wanted to kill me instead of arrest me. Really? You have issues with killing me after I've waded through a lake of Templar blood? And in the epilogue the Seeker calls me a hero? That almost made me choke, lol.

#210
kevin cousland

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i get the feeling the developers just didnt know what the hell they would do so decided to scribble together a load of nonsense its easy and lazy that way.
they were trying to put summat together and then lost all imagination and said screw this he goes insane she goes insane and everyone kills each other but mainly turns against you, the guy who said "i dont want anything to do with this"
is there any alternate endings or scenarios?
what if you killed leilana in origins?
what if you dont help anders? will the chantry have sorted things out peacefully?
i think i need a lot more playthroughs, and that is were bioware suceeds to some extent, replayabilty.
you need to replay it to understand all and every aspect.and anyway i didnt become viscount and you apparently can, unless im just a total screw up.

#211
MoSa09

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I wasn't sure if i should chip in here at all, given KoP and Mortal had such a fine argument going ^_^

But i agree with what KoP said, and i would even take it further.

The climax of Act 3 essentially broke it for me. Part of the reason why i loved Origins, and the whole Dragon Age franchise, was because it was not high fantasy. There were no gods interfering with human life, magic had limits, all was mortal, and somewhat, understandable. Its was, forgive me the odd phrase, a "realistic fantasy".

Not suddenly, you have Anders basically blowing up the chantry by magical means. Where did that power come from? We have seen lots of demons before, and Thedas tells stories of even more, yet that never happened before.

And Meredith suddenly turns into...yes what exactly. Her high flying attacks, statues coming alive. Seriously BW? At this point, in my personal opinion, everything that defined Dragon Age as a down to earth fantasy, where every power had its limits and checks simply went out of the window for the sake of having a big boss fight with statues that can spit fire. This whole fight felt much more like playing God of War or Dante's Inferno then Dragon Age. To me, it feels like all story limits were simply kicked for the sake of having an eye candy of a boss fight.

Of course, you can all blame it on Varric just telling stories, as you can do with basically anything that doesn't seem to fit. But thats a very cheap cop out to me. So from now one, all games are told in a narrative frame so everything is possible and if it doesn't fit, blame it on the narrator?

If the relic is so important, why don't we learn anything about it. Moreover, why do we never seem to ask. I mean, Hawke ventures into a forgotten Thaig, something that has been build before dwarfen history starts. He gets locked in there, while Betrand steals an artifact out of pure Lyrium, something unique no one has ever seen before. Later we learn that this artifact was able to drive Batrand to madness, into a monster that kills his own men.

We meet an Etheral golem in Batrands house (i would have preferred something meaningful instead of just another boss fight here). We discover that even a piece of that relic is able to drvie Varric almost into the madness. And all Hawke does is to chat with Varric the relic has apparently been sold.

Given we found a unique and dangerous relic, it would make sense to me to try to explore and learn about it as much as wen can. But no, we can't even ask about it. Its one thing if the devs want to keep it a secret and a hub for a later game, thats fine, But simply ignoring that matter as if its nothing important, and suddenly its back and, driving Meredith into crazy and all lore breaking while being the single most important thing of this game...sounds like a contradiction to me.

I want to be able to try and learn as much about it as i can, even if i can't get any answers in the end. I want at least be able to try instead of being so dull that an unique and highly powerful relic that has been sold to an unknwon person doesn't really bother me (same is true for Quentin and the mysterious "o" btw. My mother had just bee brutally killed, and i never question the circle or try to learn more about it? I do not even try?). You could even hint that Meredith might have bought it, and that can enbale you to suspect her madness might have been caused by the artifact. Would turn the final boss fight much more human.

And one last point. I agree both Meredith and the first enchanter (i always foget his name) needs to be fleshed out more. That he suddenly turned into a Harvester took me by real surprise and makes zero sense at the moment. When he does so when fighting templars, almost overwhelmed, in a desperate attempt to save himself, or the remains of the circle. But he does so when you just won the first battle, and the only one  he fights now is you.

Why don't Meredith accuse him of supporting blood magic to break free in the earlier stages of Act 3. She could tell you he threatened her if she keeps pressing the mages they would be forced to use all matters to survive.

He could deny that when you face him, arguing she is insane and telling you she wants to turn all mages who speak up against her into tranquill, or that she starts believing she is fulfilling the makers will by opressing the mages.

Just have these 2 speaking badly of each other could help a great deal to keep you wondering what is lie and what is true, and to prepare you for both going rampage in the end.  Wondering "what if Meredith was right and he is a bloodmage" or "what if he was right and she its just nuts and a zealot like that sister who murdered Saemus" could make this decision so much more human and interesting.

Instead, you have 2 underdeveloped anatagonists who both turn into beasts that need to be slain.

Modifié par MoSa09, 16 mars 2011 - 03:29 .


#212
Taleroth

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Remove outside influence, and we have a real human complex story. aka, Act 2.

I just want to quote you here.  This is my feeling as well.  If it hadn't been for the idol induced madness and Orsino's completely unnecessary desperation, it could have been more satisfying.  Though I think they probably would have had a hard time justifying Meredith otherwise.

#213
Palando

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MoSa09 wrote...

Not suddenly, you have Anders basically blowing up the chantry by magical means. Where did that power come from? We have seen lots of demons before, and Thedas tells stories of even more, yet that never happened before.


Except that the player could have guessed that Anders was going to blow something up because he was after saltpeter (or whatever they changed the name of that ingredient to). I had issues with part 3, but this wasn't one of them because I had a sense of foreboding, then when it happened I smacked myself on the head for not guessing that he was going to blow something up.

Modifié par Palando, 16 mars 2011 - 03:46 .


#214
KnightofPhoenix

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DarKStaR82391 wrote...
It was explained that the Arishok had planned to attack the city so not much of character progression for him except for him respecting you more.


This is not the case.

It is revealed that the Arishok had a contingency plan (because like any smart leader, you plan ahead) should it come to him having to fight to reclaim the idol and bring order to this mess. However, he only decided to go through with it once he was continously provoked. And we see him getting irritated more and more and that's character progression.

At the end, he says that he came to the conclusion that this was the only solution. Which means that before he was provoked, he investigated other options, but then lost his patience.

And good points everyone!

#215
Foolsfolly

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Alphram wrote...

My problem with Act III is that it really feels like they wrote the ending for the Templar side first, then either ran out of time, or just decided to make the key events/fights for that fit for the Mage side. I played Templar supporter first, and aside from the whole Deus ex Machina idol argument, I thought the events unfolded rather understandably, and well. When I played as a mage supporter, however, most of the same events were mostly "WTF" moments. Oddly, the key event that seemed the most forced was Cullen's turning on the Knight-Commander at the end, because she wanted to kill me instead of arrest me. Really? You have issues with killing me after I've waded through a lake of Templar blood? And in the epilogue the Seeker calls me a hero? That almost made me choke, lol.


See, I sided with the mages for my first playthrough.

.....that whole ending made no damn sense and left a bad taste in my mouth for days afterwards. I'm glad I returned to the game but that ending made me swear it off...for like 3 days. Just a really stupid ending.

#216
Foolsfolly

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DarKStaR82391 wrote...
It was explained that the Arishok had planned to attack the city so not much of character progression for him except for him respecting you more.


This is not the case.

It is revealed that the Arishok had a contingency plan (because like any smart leader, you plan ahead) should it come to him having to fight to reclaim the idol and bring order to this mess. However, he only decided to go through with it once he was continously provoked. And we see him getting irritated more and more and that's character progression.

At the end, he says that he came to the conclusion that this was the only solution. Which means that before he was provoked, he investigated other options, but then lost his patience.

And good points everyone!




Hell, the Arishok even sent delegates to talk peace with the Viscount, a person he held in no regard. And that's after dozens of Qunari had been killed and some of them even had their bodies mulitated and left as a trail of bread crumbs for other Qunari to follow.

The man really did try everything he could to avoid taking Kirkwall.

#217
KnightofPhoenix

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Indeed, the Vicount said that the delegates sent by the Arishok were reasonable and wanted peace (because like the Arishok says, the Qun did not demand war at that time). And those delegates were kidnapped and brutally murdered by an out of control mob and fanatics.

That is not to say that Sister Petrice was being totally unreasonable in being suspicious of the Qunari. The Arishok obviously lied and never told Kirkwall why he was there (possibly to avoid humiliation. It's bad when one of their most sacred relics is stolen by common thieves, even if he was not really responsible). And she had reasons to think that the Qunari want to convert Kirkwall from within, considering their attitude and the attitude of the Arishok (+ what was happening to Saemus). But she miscalculated and of course ended up self-fullfilling her own prophecy. By provoking the Arishok, he wanted to "fix" Kirkwall.

#218
MoSa09

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Palando wrote...

Except that the player could have guessed that Anders was going to blow something up because he was after saltpeter (or whatever they changed the name of that ingredient to). I had issues with part 3, but this wasn't one of them because I had a sense of foreboding, then when it happened I smacked myself on the head for not guessing that he was going to blow something up.


I actually never considered this to be the case. But you might be right. But the red flames and his eyes going blue and his skin cracking gave the impression to me it was a magical attack, especially since i doubt remote controls have been invented by then to start explosions from afar. ;)

#219
KnightofPhoenix

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I have actually wondered how he activated the bomb. Was it magical? Was it because he tapped the ground with his staff twice? Was it supposed to detonate at a certain time (which means he has the gift of foresight)?

I know it may not be relevant that much, but still. Anders tricked us to do this and I am not sure what he did exactly. Did it involve blood magic or something?

#220
Foolsfolly

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I don't think it involved Blood Magic but he's talking about leading the Revolution as early as Act 2. So he's had years to research and plot.

It's interesting to note though that that is magic not a combustion explosion. That some kind of magic we've never seen before....and the third act has a lot of that, which is a shame.

Maybe we're not suppose to wonder about how and what that explosion was....or maybe we're supposed to go conspiracy theory-ish and shout "It was Flemeth who taught him!" Or the damned Idol.

#221
Palando

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MoSa09 wrote...

Palando wrote...

Except that the player could have guessed that Anders was going to blow something up because he was after saltpeter (or whatever they changed the name of that ingredient to). I had issues with part 3, but this wasn't one of them because I had a sense of foreboding, then when it happened I smacked myself on the head for not guessing that he was going to blow something up.


I actually never considered this to be the case. But you might be right. But the red flames and his eyes going blue and his skin cracking gave the impression to me it was a magical attack, especially since i doubt remote controls have been invented by then to start explosions from afar. ;)


The skin cracking I thought was showing Justice/Vengeance was making an appearance. I assumed that the bomb was magical, it's just that the writers felt that giving a component magical properties similar to its real world properties was appropriate.

#222
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Well, Flemeth taught Morrigan the Dark Ritual. We have as much chance of learning the details for that as we do the details for Anders' nuke.

Magic did it.

#223
Herr Uhl

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Palando wrote...

Except that the player could have guessed that Anders was going to blow something up because he was after saltpeter (or whatever they changed the name of that ingredient to). I had issues with part 3, but this wasn't one of them because I had a sense of foreboding, then when it happened I smacked myself on the head for not guessing that he was going to blow something up.


Considering that explosives without lyrium is a novelty and tightly guarded secret of the Qunari, I wouldn't make that connection.

#224
Palando

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Palando wrote...

Except that the player could have guessed that Anders was going to blow something up because he was after saltpeter (or whatever they changed the name of that ingredient to).


Considering that explosives without lyrium is a novelty and tightly guarded secret of the Qunari, I wouldn't make that connection.


Given that saltpeter is an ingredient for explosives I personally feel that this is enough of a clue, even weighing the difficulty of obtaining the recipe against it. It's also possible that there were other clues I missed. I suppose I can't tell you what to find believable, but it worked for me.

#225
KnightofPhoenix

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, Flemeth taught Morrigan the Dark Ritual. We have as much chance of learning the details for that as we do the details for Anders' nuke.

Magic did it.


As a low-fantasy, magic was supposed to be limited.

Yea, the Magisters were able to apparently sink Arlathan. But IIRC, they had to use the blood of many slaves to do it. So Anders did not have their ressources and their experience.

Again, might just be nitpicking. Not so much interesting in the explosion itself. But rather how it was detonated.