141 réponses à ce sujet

[Laurelinde]

Gerrium wrote...

To answer your first question, because homosexuality it is NOT a predetermined thing. Meaning, you aren't born that way. Henceforth it is not normal. I am not going to argue about this, you have your opinion I have mine, simple. (since this is a forum to discuss and give your opinion)  I dont think is dislike, because we are all human beings with potential to excel, but rather a disagreement of  a genders sexual preference. Dude, if anything I was saying at first DA:O has homosexual content I didnt complain about, but not as much as this.

My complain is towards a video game that reach many... MANY  children and teenagers and that mass media(video games are a part of it) your accusing me of being brainwashed by, also would certaintly affect them. Your complaining because I somehow said I dont want homosexuals getting anything in life and recognition. I dont know where you got that from....and its really ...funny.  If anything alot presumptions you wrote about me are as false as Fenris's love for mages.

I really dont have to prove anything to you, If you think I'm from a closed community or subject of mass media , well all I can say is... your accusations are relative.

Homosexual is just a sexual preference, humans beings that  can do whatever they choose to, but their practice and views of such preference, in my eyes, are wrong.

1. Did you choose to be straight?  I know I didn't, I just...always have been.  So why would it work the other way?

2. Science disagrees with you.  Prevailing opinion among neuroscientists is that sexual preference is determined by a mixture of genetics and in utero conditions, and further, that gender is separate from physical sexual biology (i.e. a Y chromosome makes you biologically male, but it doesn't make you a man.)  I don't know about you, but I don't hold people responsible for things they evidently "chose" as a foetus.

3. Thedas isn't the US, or Canada, or even Europe, even it's inspired by European mythology and history.  It's not Earth.  Why can you suspend disbelief to buy into the existence of dragons, gods, magic and dangerous red artifacts that turn someone psychotic, but not that sexual attraction could be inborn in humans and other species on Thedas?  Species which, incidentally, also don't exist here on Earth.

4. Children playing Dragon Age games?  Not in my house they wouldn't.  And not because of the sex, but maybe, I dunno, the ridiculous over-the-top gore, the sometimes horrifying themes and plotlines (oh hi broodmother), and the complex and difficult moral choices that players struggle with as adults, which would be way too much for most children or teenagers.  It's an 18/M rated game, 'Won't someone think of the children!' is a strawman.

[Eromenos]

DA2 is the "best" of BioWare's games thus far when it comes to queer sexuality. But ultimately that amounts to being only "better" at it. Better is good, but not good enough.

The game-world remains homophobic, just like its predecessor was. Uncle Gamlen makes a disparaging remark to both his nephew Hawke and Anders about the boys moving in with each other- "I don't need to guess which one's the girl." Doesn't matter that it came from a douche personality. It creates a world in which queer people are treated as less. It also is a sexist thing, which runs closely with homophobia.

Isabela is candid about liking males and females whereas Anders is exclusive depending on what type of Hawke he gets. That's a contrast between Isabela and Anders with nothing to do about their differing "personalities." It's all about Isabela's titillation being less likely to "offend" homophobic gamers, contrasted against Anders being made to keep quiet about liking men all in case some people cry over being ambushed with the thought that human men can be together. 

Anders worries that male Hawke might lose interest or dislike him because Anders had been "with a man." That wasn't a virgin issue, or about male Hawke being able to understand male couples better. The way it's handled felt like a homophobic apology for liking men, as a man. The reaction to female Hawke is no better since it's an inexplicable whitewash. Anders expects to be treated with shame for having romantically loved a man at least once in his life, regardless if Hawke is male or female. Both the instances were unacceptable. They're made so just to satisfy homophobic mandates that men must have reasons to feel bad for loving each other.

Meh, much ado about nothing IMO. The romances are very shallow and uninteresting compared to the deep conversations written in other series like ME and KOTOR.

 

This I do agree with. 

And I don't think their sexualities ultimately defines them. You can ask Fenris if the guy thing troubles him and he says "nah, it's not that." You can ask Anders about his relationship with a guy and he explains point blank that he loves the person, not the body. Then we continue on with the normal relationship stuff, same as with a female Hawke

 

That such questions remain present signals BioWare's BS still trying to have it both ways. On one hand, there is “some” queer sexuality that is “better” as far as being finally able to choose among all the potentials…except  the non-fringe church-boy I haven’t played with yet. But on the other hand, the M/M couplings act as if the world has reasons to hate them for how they feel about each other as men. Thumbs-down. The sooner we don’t have to deal with latent homophobia that still compels/maintains queer subordination, the better for everyone.

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 mars 2011 - 12:22 .

[Gerrium]

Laurelinde wrote...

Gerrium wrote...

To answer your first question, because homosexuality it is NOT a predetermined thing. Meaning, you aren't born that way. Henceforth it is not normal. I am not going to argue about this, you have your opinion I have mine, simple. (since this is a forum to discuss and give your opinion)  I dont think is dislike, because we are all human beings with potential to excel, but rather a disagreement of  a genders sexual preference. Dude, if anything I was saying at first DA:O has homosexual content I didnt complain about, but not as much as this.

My complain is towards a video game that reach many... MANY  children and teenagers and that mass media(video games are a part of it) your accusing me of being brainwashed by, also would certaintly affect them. Your complaining because I somehow said I dont want homosexuals getting anything in life and recognition. I dont know where you got that from....and its really ...funny.  If anything alot presumptions you wrote about me are as false as Fenris's love for mages.

I really dont have to prove anything to you, If you think I'm from a closed community or subject of mass media , well all I can say is... your accusations are relative.

Homosexual is just a sexual preference, humans beings that  can do whatever they choose to, but their practice and views of such preference, in my eyes, are wrong.

 Something that a guy or girl I dont know, wrote when I clearly wrote on the first paraghaph. I guess he cant read,

[Ryzaki]

@Eromenos: I facepalmed so hard at the hatred line.

You realize that was about being mages.

Right?

[banner the bloodguard]

I romanced no cartoon in the game and was more intent on fighting. Isabella, Merrill and that idiot Anders all indicated they were interested in my character and I ignored that. Made for a very entertaining game. Homosexuality? w/e I don't like or dislike that part of humanity it exists, to each their own, onward.

[Espurr]

Laurelinde wrote...

4. Children playing Dragon Age games?  Not in my house they wouldn't.  And not because of the sex, but maybe, I dunno, the ridiculous over-the-top gore, the sometimes horrifying themes and plotlines (oh hi broodmother), and the complex and difficult moral choices that players struggle with as adults, which would be way too much for most children or teenagers.  It's an 18/M rated game, 'Won't someone think of the children!' is a strawman.

Yeah, this. Seriously. Regardless of the topic, if a kid is at an age where you're still worried about their impressionability they really shouldn't be anywhere near an M rated video game.

That said, I HATE when people act like exposing children to homosexuality is equal to exposing them to an adult subject. Homosexuality is a fact of life and perfectly capable of being G rated, and is no more "adult" than innocent heterosexuality. All I see when people pull that excuse is a fear that children might see something portrayed objectively and *gasp* form their own opinion about it.

[Rybciek]

Anders' statement of who Karl was to him was very moving and IMO very realistic for the circumstances. It made that side-quest and his character so much more impactful. However I do wish that the consequences for choosing a homosexual romance were a bit harsher in the game environment. It seems like everyone is just very casual about it when in reality there would be a lot more surprised and horrified reactions from party members and NPC's. I got the impression from selecting a romance dialogue with Fenris once as a maleHawke that he was disgusted and embarrassed by the advance, but not much more than that. I don't know, would the LGTB mind if Bioware included a bit more homophobia in their games to be more realistic?

EDIT: Lol at the guy thinking that exposing children to homosexuality is "tainting" them somehow. Not to mention how many children are going to be able to hold their interest on games with even basic RPG mechanics?

Modifié par Rybciek, 20 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Trophonius]

Rybciek wrote...

Anders' statement of who Karl was to him was very moving and IMO very realistic for the circumstances. It made that side-quest and his character so much more impactful. However I do wish that the consequences for choosing a homosexual romance were a bit harsher in the game environment. It seems like everyone is just very casual about it when in reality there would be a lot more surprised and horrified reactions from party members and NPC's. I got the impression from selecting a romance dialogue with Fenris once as a maleHawke that he was disgusted and embarrassed by the advance, but not much more than that. I don't know, would the LGTB mind if Bioware included a bit more homophobia in their games to be more realistic?

EDIT: Lol at the guy thinking that exposing children to homosexuality is "tainting" them somehow. Not to mention how many children are going to be able to hold their interest on games with even basic RPG mechanics?

Yeah, that's part of what I liked about interacting with Anders as male Hawke. He imparts a little bit more information about his personal life that changes the way we perceive his motives. I'm not saying I agree with the "love conquers all" notion, but it does make a whole lot of difference when he mentions Karl as his first love. There's a whirlwind of emotions bursting through him whenever he talks about Karl and provides him yet another reason to dismantle the templar order for good, making it easier to sympathize with him.

For the sexuality acknowledgement issue: Thedas, or Ferelden at least, don't have social taboos against homosexuality. That's why it's treated less grievously than it would've in a real world setting. The only parallel is that marriage between a man and a woman is still highly encouraged (for obvious procreational reasons). I suppose Fenris isn't bothered by it because he was meant to be "subjective", but Anders is more hardwired to fall for Hawke anyway. I believe the only hint of homophobia (to a lesser extent) was in Gamlen's remark about how you don't have to tell him which one is the "girl" in the relationship if his nephew romances either Fenris or Anders.

[Cat Fancy]

I wouldn't mind more homophobia in the games. Not a gratuitous amount, obviously, but it's pretty clear that Thedas is sexist and women face a lot of the same problems they face in the real world. Mechanically, women are the same as men in these games and have few plot differences, but it's clear that they're treated differently- human nobles express concern about their mother's ability/willingness/whatever to fight in that origin, for example. As a gay guy, I see homophobia as largely an extension of sexism, so it makes sense that it would show its face in Thedas. It does, at times, but inconsistently. I prefer Fenris, but I like the way Anders's romance with a guy starts more. It feels realistic.

Trophonius wrote...

For the sexuality acknowledgement issue: Thedas, or Ferelden at least, don't have social taboos against homosexuality. That's why it's treated less grievously than it would've in a real world setting. The only parallel is that marriage between a man and a woman is still highly encouraged (for obvious procreational reasons). I suppose Fenris isn't bothered by it because he was meant to be "subjective", but Anders is more hardwired to fall for Hawke anyway. I believe the only hint of homophobia (to a lesser extent) was in Gamlen's remark about how you don't have to tell him which one is the "girl" in the relationship if his nephew romances either Fenris or Anders.

I see a lot of comments from people who believe that Thedas is, generally, more tolerant of homosexuality than, say, the United States, and I don't buy it. I consider societies that place a strong emphasis on procreation fairly homophobic. That homosexuality is fine for the children of others but not for your children is a homophobic attitude- absolutely a step back from what you might find among more liberal families in contemporary society. I don't think the writers realized how positively a lot of the fanbase was going to respond to same-sex relationships, and this is responsible for the inconsistencies I see in the way they're portrayed. In the M/M thread pre-release, someone released a link to the old boards where Gaider talked about homosexuality and other stuff in Thedas. If someone could find that, cool. He talked about how homosexuality might be fine for the Orlesian elite, but the common people might have more of an issue with it, for example.

I really, really doubt they'll actually spend a lot of time on this, though, and I can't fault them for it. It's kinda weird, but I do like that they've just decided to make everyone bisexual, though. Mad props.

[Trophonius]

umwhatyousay wrote...

I see a lot of comments from people who believe that Thedas is, generally, more tolerant of homosexuality than, say, the United States, and I don't buy it. I consider societies that place a strong emphasis on procreation fairly homophobic. That homosexuality is fine for the children of others but not for your children is a homophobic attitude- absolutely a step back from what you might find among more liberal families in contemporary society. I don't think the writers realized how positively a lot of the fanbase was going to respond to same-sex relationships, and this is responsible for the inconsistencies I see in the way they're portrayed. In the M/M thread pre-release, someone released a link to the old boards where Gaider talked about homosexuality and other stuff in Thedas. If someone could find that, cool. He talked about how homosexuality might be fine for the Orlesian elite, but the common people might have more of an issue with it, for example.

I really, really doubt they'll actually spend a lot of time on this, though, and I can't fault them for it. It's kinda weird, but I do like that they've just decided to make everyone bisexual, though. Mad props.

Generally speaking, Thedas seems to be more open than two thirds of Earth. The Orlesian comment was a reference to their epicurean view of sexuality and that homosexuality is more of a "quirk" than anything. Same with Antiva. Otherwise, it's treated as something that's considered strange and uncommon, but not morally questionable. Although I do understand your belief about strong emphasis in a heterosexual family unit engendering homophobic conditions, it's not so much of a big deal in Thedas society. None of that intimidation or oppression because you're gay, which is unfortunately rampant in our world. For example, in Anders' case, his relationship with Karl would've been forbidden not because they're both men, but because such relationships between two mages (especially if they were caught as apostates) are heavily discouraged. The templars would've used either as tools to turn against each other with.

[Chiramu]

Check out CAD comic sometimes .

l3.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20110314-c6e0a.png

[Thiefy]

I saw that, you should have posted the article with it because i thought it was equally funny.

Anders gets what Anders wants indeed.

[Cat Fancy]

Trophonius wrote...

Generally speaking, Thedas seems to be more open than two thirds of Earth. The Orlesian comment was a reference to their epicurean view of sexuality and that homosexuality is more of a "quirk" than anything. Same with Antiva. Otherwise, it's treated as something that's considered strange and uncommon, but not morally questionable. Although I do understand your belief about strong emphasis in a heterosexual family unit engendering homophobic conditions, it's not so much of a big deal in Thedas society. None of that intimidation or oppression because you're gay, which is unfortunately rampant in our world. For example, in Anders' case, his relationship with Karl would've been forbidden not because they're both men, but because such relationships between two mages (especially if they were caught as apostates) are heavily discouraged. The templars would've used either as tools to turn against each other with.

I agree that Thedas is much more tolerant than most of Earth, but I still don't think it's particularly open. I've found this post.

David Gaider wrote...

The notion exists, though it is uncommon in Ferelden. Tradition demands
that men and women marry, for the sake of their families and procreation
if nothing else, and beyond that the personal matters one gets up to in
one's bedroom are their own affair. Even so, there isn't a culture
where such interests are commonly spoken of or where people of
non-straight persuasion could find each other -- so it's largely rare.

...

In Ferelden it would be considered odd, but like Mary said the Chantry
is far less judgemental of such matters than the Catholic church was in
our own history. Even so, the forms must be observed. If such practices
occur, they are generally done in secret and considered distasteful when
made public (at least, when it comes to those from whom respectability
is expected -- married folks and those with families).

Anders talks about how most people aren't so open if you hit on him as a guy and sort of implies that the culture at large is homophobic, I think. Anders does sort of treat it like a taboo. Not a major one, but one nonetheless. Gaider also talks about how homosexuality is viewed as a quirk among Orlesian nobility in that post, too, but later:

David Gaider wrote...

I don't know why you would [respect Orlelsian views on sexuality]. Orlesians consider [doing it with guys if you're a guy] to be deviant
behavior, for the most part. They just consider deviancy in general to
be something to gossip about and find amusing. The aristocracy in Orlais
like to outdo each other when it comes to showing off their extravagant
tastes, sexual or otherwise. The peasantry is much less tolerant of
such things, at least in private.

Thedas is the worst (which is to say, not a gay utoptia). This is fine. I would actually prefer it if characters had stronger reactions to same-sex relationships, but I absolutely understand why the writers don't really want to touch this/devote resources to it and they're welcome to change their minds about stuff they wrote on a forum two years ago. It seems like writers intended the world to be a bit more conservative than it actually is in the games now, but things change. I'd rather have all bi lis than reactions to having a same-sex relationship, but it'd be great if I got both. Still, God bless you, writers. Never change.

edit: It's weird that copying and pasting things turns them into poetry. Huh.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 20 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[CrookedAsylum]

yukidama wrote...

Hmm, you might have missed this, then.

I would rage so hard if I was in the midst of a romance with either of them.

[Shazzie]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Hmm, you might have missed this, then.

I would rage so hard if I was in the midst of a romance with either of them.

That particular banter only plays if you're not  in a relationship with either.    Though if you romanced Fenris and/or Isabela and then switched to another companion, it can play, since you're not actively with them any longer.

[Taura-Tierno]

Lol. I like the word Hawkesexual. That's how I saw Fenris when my Hawke romanced him in my first playthrough. My Hawke was male, so Fenris was into guys. At least I could imagine it was like that, which is enough for me. So I didn't consider all of them bisexual, aside from Isabela who clearly is. More like Hawkesexual.

I've also always interpreted the world's views on gays in about the same way as someone quoted Gaider on. Not all happy about it, but not all "We have to exterminate all the gays!!!!" either. I liked that the companions didn't seem to mind, though. Some comments made it feel as if it was somewhat odd and not that usual (which would be true), but not horrifying in any way. Just that people like nobles would want their kids to have children to carry on the family line, not that men liking men or women liking women is inherently wrong.

I really liked how they handled it.

[Shazzie]

Me too! Hawkesexual is perfect.

Personally, in my plays (all FemHawke) I liked how Fenris and Anders showed no signs of being anything but heterosexual. Well, unless you 'guess' that Karl means more to Anders than 'just a friend'. Not that I would have minded, but I like how they arrange it to fit Hawke's gender.

And I like how, if you do choose a same sex partner, it doesn't lead to issues and/or harassment. Sure, even in Thedas same sex relationships aren't the norm. They're odd, unusual, uncommon.. but, well, that's right. They have to be, it's hardwired in us so that our race(s) don't die off, and if it was different in Thedas, that would be REALLY strange. Doesn't make it a wrong thing, or a bad thing, just makes it for racial security that it isn't common. And kinda more special when you find it in your companions.

[Taura-Tierno]

Shazzie: Precisely so.

[Eromenos]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eromenos: I facepalmed so hard at the hatred line.

You realize that was about being mages.

Right?

You realize that was about being homophobic.

Re-read what I was responding to, and my response. I don't care what Fenris' ultimate answer to the question was. Same with Anders. The fact that those question were there in the first place is homophobic BS. Something tells me the female Hawkes don't ask them if there's a problem with becoming a str8 couple. Then the assumption is it's "just a couple." But if I'm somehow wrong about female Hawkes not being able to point that out, do please let me know. Let us all know.

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Eromenos wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eromenos: I facepalmed so hard at the hatred line.

You realize that was about being mages.

Right?

You realize that was about being homophobic.

Re-read what I was responding to, and my response. I don't care what Fenris' ultimate answer to the question was. Same with Anders. The fact that those question were there in the first place is homophobic BS. Something tells me the female Hawkes don't ask them if there's a problem with becoming a str8 couple. Then the assumption is it's "just a couple." But if I'm somehow wrong about female Hawkes not being able to point that out, do please let me know. Let us all know.

Are you serious? 

Asking someone if it was...*sighs* nevermind. Your determined to be offended. Go right ahead. 

[Eromenos]

Rybciek wrote...

Anders' statement of who Karl was to him was very moving and IMO very realistic for the circumstances. It made that side-quest and his character so much more impactful. However I do wish that the consequences for choosing a homosexual romance were a bit harsher in the game environment. It seems like everyone is just very casual about it when in reality there would be a lot more surprised and horrified reactions from party members and NPC's. I got the impression from selecting a romance dialogue with Fenris once as a maleHawke that he was disgusted and embarrassed by the advance, but not much more than that. I don't know, would the LGTB mind if Bioware included a bit more homophobia in their games to be more realistic?

EDIT: Lol at the guy thinking that exposing children to homosexuality is "tainting" them somehow. Not to mention how many children are going to be able to hold their interest on games with even basic RPG mechanics?

Might be nice if BioWare tackled homophobia head-on. Like, to the same degree in which slavery's reviled and/or revered depending on who you ask in Thedas. To most of us IRL I'm sure slavery = BAD. Which is why it's allowed to be openly narrated upon. Because that's safe to do. BioWare risks nothing. They risk even less by not even showing white human slaves, I think. Just elves. Just...non-human/fictional allegories.

Anyway, the same "universal" agreement on slavery cannot even be said about attitudes in this community regarding homophobia. It's not safe to come out strongly against homophobia, which is why even in DA2 it is only played with and exploited, still tokenized, and not challenged head-on.

I do see lots of allegories with homophobia in Anders' words and attitude about resisting templar oppression as a mage, even as a gay mage for some players, which I feel is not a coincidence. But in that same sense it only places a toe ahead of X-Men's coincidental allegories. DA2 does have queer npcs and queer options. Yet ot still refuses to allow queerness to take center-stage in either conflict or in normativity.

TBH I'd prefer content that faces homophobia by cutting out homophobia altogether during the dev stages and maintaining that attitude instead, all the way to retail by casting queer relationships and attractions side-by-side with straight relationships and attractions. In numerous quantities and qualities just like straight couples. Homophobic viewpoints are not really worth, ah, hand-holding. Like the way they still are in this game.

It might do "some good" to cast queer people as victims who need sympathy from friends in straight culture, but the problem there is that it never allows queerness to ever actually be shown unless it has straight culture's opinions of queerness counting for more, which is homophobic because it maintains queerness in a separate lesser box.

I get a lot of, "it would be unrealistic."

Or even, "some people are straight."

But what I get from that is, "I know how to address issues of oppression better than actual oppressed people do, because my advantages make me the one qualified to look down from higher to see what's going on, better than people who haven't been uplifted yet since they'd be prone to overlook context. They're like children still! And while I feel so much for them, I can't risk letting them do their own talking because they'll take or change everything...and leave me with nothing."

Women's issues and non-white issues deal with this attitude still, along with queer people who are also patronized. I think often it's unintentional, but the effects are just as bad either way. It is sad how the part of "take/change everything" is the only aspect that's ultimately true but interpreted as being bad because it would destroy privilege. A man wouldn't stop being a man, a white person wouldn't stop being white, and a straight person wouldn't stop being straight.

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 mars 2011 - 06:30 .

[Addai]

Eromenos wrote...

Women's issues and non-white issues deal with this attitude still, along with queer people who are also patronized. I think often it's unintentional, but the effects are just as bad either way. It is sad how the part of "take/change everything" is the only aspect that's ultimately true but interpreted as being bad because it would destroy privilege. A man wouldn't stop being a man, a white person wouldn't stop being white, and a straight person wouldn't stop being straight.

Ugh... please keep your political crusades out of games that people pay for and buy to enjoy.  I don't buy a video game for a social consciousness lecture.

So some characters make crass comments.  They also make comments about women, mages and elves.  Probably if there were any fat people in Thedas, they'd make fun of you for being fat.  If you want a game that presents some social utopia where no one is allowed to say anything that might offend someone anywhere, make your own game.  I doubt much of anyone would buy it.

[Eromenos]

Addai67 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Women's issues and non-white issues deal with this attitude still, along with queer people who are also patronized. I think often it's unintentional, but the effects are just as bad either way. It is sad how the part of "take/change everything" is the only aspect that's ultimately true but interpreted as being bad because it would destroy privilege. A man wouldn't stop being a man, a white person wouldn't stop being white, and a straight person wouldn't stop being straight.

Ugh... please keep your political crusades out of games that people pay for and buy to enjoy.  I don't buy a video game for a social consciousness lecture.

So some characters make crass comments.  They also make comments about women, mages and elves.  Probably if there were any fat people in Thedas, they'd make fun of you for being fat.  If you want a game that presents some social utopia where no one is allowed to say anything that might offend someone anywhere, make your own game.  I doubt much of anyone would buy it.

If you can't stomach politics...well, you paid for this thing, you might as well justify having paid for it.

The things you celebrate and protect as "normal" and "ok" happen to be elements of your concept of a "free country" as if "freedom to determine" were accessible for all. The way you treat systemic insults against the way people are born is called you abusing your liberties to attempt overruning someone else's dignity. In most cases that probably works.

I'll be around here.

You're a prime example of what I was describing earlier. All it takes is pointing out the privileges of those 3 classes badly affecting even just a BioWare game, for example.

So, what was it that you enjoyed about DA2's treatment of gayness again?

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[Addai]

I have no idea what you just said. Point being, pedantic and political in a game= no want.

[Eromenos]

Addai67 wrote...

I have no idea what you just said. Point being, pedantic and political in a game= no want.

What a coincidence, even I was still wondering about your point. Ah, I see. I see.

Issues = Politics to you. Abuse = Fun to you. And you pay for fun.

Of course you don't call it abuse. Or you might. Either way, most other people would let you get away with it.

Modifié par Eromenos, 21 mars 2011 - 06:53 .