71 réponses à ce sujet

[Ibian]

This board is slow. So anyhow.

We got the pirates in one corner and the people who want to kill pirates without so much as a mock trial in the other corner.

That's all very well and theoretical, but it's too polarized. There are many reasons to pirate, and some of them are legal, legit, or morally sound. Or all of them at once. A few examples,

Buying the game and then downloading a cracked version is, as far as i know, legal. It's not important why someone would want to do this, but one reason would be to always have the game on hand without having to look for the disc (handy if you travel a lot, just plain convenient if you don't). "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

There are reasons for pirating before buying too. You can't know if a given game will run properly, or even start, on your specific system until you try it. Some people like to check these things with a pirated version before they go and spend money on it, because if it doesn't work it's money lost. The very thing the antis claim the game companies fear so much. Why should the consumers be the only ones at risk? This seems like a pretty legit reason to me so long as they actually buy it when it turns out to work. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

Then there are people who pirate and only pay if the game is good enough, by whatever standards they personally use. For a given definition of morals, this is perfectly moral in that big corporations ought not to profit from turning out crappy games. The antis will, naturally, disagree with this but there it is. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

And finally, the pirates who never pay for anything. Piracy does nothing at all to stop them, and they are enjoying a jolly good laugh at some people in this very thread at this exact moment. That's right, they are laughing at YOU! *points* "Not every pirated game is a lost sale".

Modifié par Ibian, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[Druscylla]

I use no CD for games because of my laptop. While I still use the discs on my PC - my laptop has an external disc drive. So its really inconvenient to have to carry discs and the drive everywhere I go. But I would rather melt someone else's face with a hamster than go back to DRM.

[Syvere]

Druscylla wrote...

I use no CD for games because of my laptop. While I still use the discs on my PC - my laptop has an external disc drive. So its really inconvenient to have to carry discs and the drive everywhere I go. But I would rather melt someone else's face with a hamster than go back to DRM.

Indeed, I'm, for one, glad that EA came to their senses and went back to regular disc checks.

[Ibian]

eisberg77 wrote...
Also, when people are talking about DRM, they are not talking about Disk Checks.  You are the first person to ever say Disk checks are DRM.  For PC gaming when people are talking about DRM, DRM is the activation of a game through the internet or through phone calls, and often comes with activation limits.

I don't care how "people" use it because "people" are wrong. DRM has, like most other words, a very specific definition.

eisberg77 wrote...
Lets forget about the first 2, how about pirating movies?  Notice the FBI warning?  How is pirating movies any different then pirating a game?  Or do you believe pirating a movie is morally right as well?

You must be young. Back in the VHS days, most people taped movies off TV. And then we shared it with our friends and family. I have never heard about anyone getting so much as a fine for that.

As to the rest, do read everything i write before replying sweetie.

Modifié par Ibian, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[Riecth]

http://img264.images...9880/piracy.png

I personally found that image to be humorous and relevant to this discussion.  That being said, I bought my copy and hae been enjoying it immensely.  Worth every cent.  But I would like to interject that ever pirated copy isn't necessarily a lost sale.  On the contrary I've seen a number of people pirate this game only to find out how well made it is and then go out and buy the game.  Pirates often feel they aren't getting their money's worth from todays games and use that as justification when obtaining their games for free.  Some also acutally don't have the money to spend on games.  They wouldn't be buying the game if piracy didn't exist, they're only pirating because it's easy and they can.  I'm not really sure where I ultimately stand on piracy, but in the large scheme my opinion matters little.

As far as this all relates to this thread though (as this is a bit of a tangent from the first post), I feel that pirates do get a small bit of a better deal.  Nothing to be overly dramatic about however.  As pirates don't need CDs, they also have to download their games.  If you want to not use a CD just like them, you just have to use the EA downloader and download your game.

[Osprey39]

Ibian wrote...

Sure, but you already got the box. You are basically paying to do what any ol pirate does. It's more work and more expensive. Still a bad business model.

So you're a highly placed exec in a software company that doesn't do these things?  If not, you're just talking out your ass.  You don't know how effective it is or isn't.  I could be wrong but I'm going to go ahead and say it probably makes them more money than it loses since EVERY software company of note does it. 

[Ibian]

eisberg77 wrote...

Ibian wrote...

This board is slow. So anyhow.

We got the pirates in one corner and the people who want to kill pirates without so much as a mock trial in the other corner.

That's all very well and theoretical, but it's too polarized. There are many reasons to pirate, and some of them are legal, legit, or morally sound. Or all of them at once. A few examples,

Buying the game and then downloading a cracked version is, as far as i know, legal. It's not important why someone would want to do this, but one reason would be to always have the game on hand without having to look for the disc (handy if you travel a lot, just plain convenient if you don't). "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

There are reasons for pirating before buying too. You can't know if a given game will run properly, or even start, on your specific system until you try it. Some people like to check these things with a pirated version before they go and spend money on it, because if it doesn't work it's money lost. The very thing the antis claim the game companies fear so much. Why should the consumers be the only ones at risk? This seems like a pretty legit reason to me so long as they actually buy it when it turns out to work. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

Then there are people who pirate and only pay if the game is good enough, by whatever standards they personally use. For a given definition of morals, this is perfectly moral in that big corporations ought not to profit from turning out crappy games. The antis will, naturally, disagree with this but there it is. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

And finally, the pirates who never pay for anything. Piracy does nothing at all to stop them, and they are enjoying a jolly good laugh at some people in this very thread at this exact moment. That's right, they are laughing at YOU! *points* "Not every pirated game is a lost sale".

For each paragraph:

1- They bought the game, if they are using a hacked version, they did not pirate the game, cause they already bought the game.  This is not piracy.

2- You already answered this.  As long as they buy it as soon as they find out it works properly, then they didn't pirate the game, since they ended up buying it.

3- Interstingly enough, the highest pirated games out there end up being the good ones.  There a few pirates in my circle of friends, and they only pirate the good games, never the bad ones, and they never pay for it.  But you are right, there are those who try the game first before buying it, but the end up buying it right away, and once again they are not pirates.

4- And now we get to what we are talking about.  I do in fact have a higher moral ground then these people who are in this category.  This is a fact, and there is no way anybody can ever justify what these people are doing is morally right.

Generally when people are talking about pirates and how they are just pure trash, they are talking about the ones in #4.  And yes, even though they are my friends I tell them they are trashy for being pirates, and they even admit it is true and agree with me.  Because if they couldn't get it for free, they would buy the game.  In fact if a game didn't get a good pirated version with in the first week, they always ended up buying the game because they didnt want wait.

As, i see. You have no idea what you are talking about.

The law doesn't think that the ends justify the means. If you pirate a game, wait a month and then buy it, you have in fact committed a crime and if you are caught you will be tried as the criminal you are.

Your personal opinion of what constitutes piracy is irrelevant. There are legal definitions (fuzzy ones and subject to interpretation by professionals, but they are there).

[Ibian]

That's just the pirates YOU say you personally hate. Nobody else has made this distinction thus far. And i'm not going to try to defend them.

[Ibian]

Certainly not. I just don't have the inclination to try.

[Sevenar]

I find it hilarious (well, sad, really) that a perfectly legitimate way to bypass the dreaded disc check has been posted TWICE, and people are still ****ing. Don't mind a disc check? Leave it in the drive. Hate disc checks? Go the EA Downloader route. Everybody wins. Now go play DA.

[Osprey39]

Ibian wrote...

This board is slow. So anyhow.

We got the pirates in one corner and the people who want to kill pirates without so much as a mock trial in the other corner.

That's all very well and theoretical, but it's too polarized. There are many reasons to pirate, and some of them are legal, legit, or morally sound. Or all of them at once. A few examples,

Buying the game and then downloading a cracked version is, as far as i know, legal. It's not important why someone would want to do this, but one reason would be to always have the game on hand without having to look for the disc (handy if you travel a lot, just plain convenient if you don't). "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

I'm not a lawyer but I don't think it is legal to download a cracked copy.  I know that you are entitled to legally have a backup copy of software you have purchased but in this case, the copy is illegal so it's a bit of a murky situation there.

There are reasons for pirating before buying too. You can't know if a given game will run properly, or even start, on your specific system until you try it. Some people like to check these things with a pirated version before they go and spend money on it, because if it doesn't work it's money lost. The very thing the antis claim the game companies fear so much. Why should the consumers be the only ones at risk? This seems like a pretty legit reason to me so long as they actually buy it when it turns out to work. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

You're right, that's a reason but it's not legal, legit or morally right.  It's basically just someone using their own self-interests to justify breaking the law.  Most games have demos eventually and it's not at all uncommon for the demo to be out before the full version drops as game companies are realizing that demos are good advertising.  If you can't wait for the demo or there isn't one available, too bad.  Personally, I can count on one hand the number of games I've purchased that I wasn't able to make work on my system eventually and I have bought literally hundreds of PC games in my lifetime.  It's a risk that's inherent in the product but one that most people don't mind taking.  If you are so worried about it not working, go buy it at Walmart.  They'll take anything back.

Then there are people who pirate and only pay if the game is good enough, by whatever standards they personally use. For a given definition of morals, this is perfectly moral in that big corporations ought not to profit from turning out crappy games. The antis will, naturally, disagree with this but there it is. "Not every sale would have happened without piracy".

Again, this is just a self-serving justification for breaking the law.  You're not sure if the game is good?  Well try www.metacritic.com.  They have links to multiple reviews for pretty much every video game of note that is out there.  That's called informing yourself and it's what smart consumers do.  What they don't do is go and steal something and then decide whether it's worth paying for or not. 

There's obviously no way to prove it but I would be willing to bet a chunk of change that the rate of people that pirate games and then buy them if they are good is less than 5% and that's being generous.  I feel pretty confident in saying that most people know the games are good and just steal them anyway with no intention of ever buying them.  You can disagree but you can't prove me wrong now can you?

And finally, the pirates who never pay for anything. Piracy does nothing at all to stop them, and they are enjoying a jolly good laugh at some people in this very thread at this exact moment. That's right, they are laughing at YOU! *points* "Not every pirated game is a lost sale".

I really don't care what those scumbags think of me.  I hope they get caught one of these days and if I can contribute to them getting caught, I will.  Now tell me, which one of these groups of fine individuals do you fit into or are you just defending them because you feel they are an oppressed minority?

Bottomline is this.  It's not ok to go into EB Games and grab the latest game and shove it in your coat and walk out without paying for it regardless of your reasons.  By the same token, it's not ok to download the same game without paying for it just because the chances of you getting caught are greatly reduced. 

[StargeezerTim]

Wow, seems I may have hit a nerve here!  Got some good exchanges going.

First, to the person(s) who posted about using the EA download manger to get the free digital copy, I was unaware of that.  Thank you for the tip, I might just go through the extra effort, just to save the wear and tear on my DVD.

I tend to discourage piracy strongly because to me it does represent theft of a real intellectual property.  I cannot and will not take the so-called "moral high ground" and say I've never, ever owned a piece of "illegitimate" software.  Nor can I say I've never resorted to appealing to "pirated" means to justly use legitimately owned software (i.e., I have obtained NOCD codes for games I've purchased in the past.)  There are no easy solutions to this problem; I respect the rights of the publishers to protect their investment, and I also respect the rights of legitimate customers to use the product they've paid for without undue burden.  The tricky part is finding where both of these rights overlap while simultaneously impeding those who want the "free ride" at the expense of both the publishers and legit customers.

While there is an upfront "burden" in having to uninstall, and download the content, if the long-term solution is to be able to play this game without being forced to use the physical medium in the future, then it's a burden I'm willing to put up with for now.  Not a perfect solution, but it's marginally better than requiring the DVD to be in the drive.  As I have a fairly fast connection and no download caps, this works for me.  I can see where folks in more far-flung markets would have an issue with this, however.

[Ibian]

Osprey39 wrote...
I really don't care what those scumbags think of me.  I hope they get caught one of these days and if I can contribute to them getting caught, I will.  Now tell me, which one of these groups of fine individuals do you fit into or are you just defending them because you feel they are an oppressed minority?

DRM is a stupid waste of time, money and effort. That's why i'm playing el diabolus advocatus here.

And stop equating piracy with stealing already. You are wrong. Stealing has a technical and legal definition and piracy isn't it.

Modifié par Ibian, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:07 .

[addiction21]

  Sums up my feelings about this subject.

[Seclus]

i find it funny how people call software piracy, stealing. its not stealing. They are not physicaly taking any object. They are passing on intelectual information but they are doing it in a way that violates copyright and distrubution laws. Piracy creates more negatives then positives and I find piracy a very unacceptable practice because of that.



The overall point to all this is: for any reason to aquire illegally distrubuted merchandice is still illegal no matter what the justification is. But it is not stealing it may seem like stealing, but its more like plegerisum.



and lastly all the safety measures they have in place now are failing to stop piracy and are causeing a mild senseless inconvience to paying customers. and i mean mild in the fact that its as if you got a burger and asked for no pickles and you had to pick off a pickle.

[Ibian]

One more thing that people seem to be overlooking. As usual i might add.



Illegal is not necessarily the same as wrong. Yes piracy is illegal, we are all perfectly aware of that thankyou. But it is a big jump from "illegal" to "wrong".



Whoever finds it worthwhile to bridge that jump, keep in mind the different types of pirates and the reasons they pirate.