26 réponses à ce sujet

[bluedevil99]

Hi folks,

I'm playing on Hard and having a pretty rough time.  My Hawke is a sword and board warrior (actually thought it would be easier this way) and even with Taunt, Varric's Goad and Armistice, and Bravery's threat bonus, I'm finding it nearly impossible to hold aggro for an entire fight.  I'm playing with Varric, Merril, and Anders, and am constantly having to chase mobs back to my little "artillery core", whereupon they get swarmed by baddies.  I'm finding it extremely tiresome having to constantly manage their positioning, especially with in-fight spawns showing up out of nowhere in nonsensical positions (how did those raiders manage to sneak up behind us AGAIN).

I'm reading the boards here and seeing lots of folks having a pretty easy time with the game.  I'm a long time CRPG veteran (beat Origins as a mage on Nightmare with no problems) but don't play many MMOs.  Having to constantly manage aggro reminds me of watching friends play World of Warcraft and I really don't like it.  So, what's the secret?  Do I need to respec to increase Hawke's DPS?  Do I need to bring Fenris or Avaline along?  I'm trying to avoid abusing the immunity to friendly fire (based on my experience so far there is no way I have the patience for Nightmare).  Any help would be greatly appreciated- it's very possible this is the first ever Bioware game I won't finish.

I have to say I liked the combat in Origins much, much better, but maybe 20 hours in I just haven't gotten the hang of it yet...

[rumination888]

What sustains are you using?

[Loc'n'lol]

Stick together more.

[Group Theory]

I'm playing on Nightmare, and I am having some of the same problems you are. My tank (Hawke as a weapon and shield) is having a difficult time holding aggro. A couple of tips/ideas for you:

1) Taunt doesn't "build" threat. What happens when you taunt is it clears enemy threat and replaces it by the threat of the character who taunted.
2) Stunning clears threat. So if you taunt and then immediately begin to stun enemies, you just wasted your taunt.
3) There is a good sustain for a tank to have - its in the Warmonger tree. It's Bravery and one of the upgrades. I forget what one of the upgrades is called, but it generates +50% threat for each additional enemy around your tank.

I'm playing with my tank + 3 ranged, and I just try to keep my ranged as far away from the combat as possible. If they draw aggro from archers, I either focus fire down the archers (if they have a short HP bar), or I run the person getting shot behind a wall.

[KitsuneEclipse]

Group Theory wrote...

I'm playing on Nightmare, and I am having some of the same problems you are. My tank (Hawke as a weapon and shield) is having a difficult time holding aggro. A couple of tips/ideas for you:

1) Taunt doesn't "build" threat. What happens when you taunt is it clears enemy threat and replaces it by the threat of the character who taunted.
2) Stunning clears threat. So if you taunt and then immediately begin to stun enemies, you just wasted your taunt.
3) There is a good sustain for a tank to have - its in the Warmonger tree. It's Bravery and one of the upgrades. I forget what one of the upgrades is called, but it generates +50% threat for each additional enemy around your tank.

I'm playing with my tank + 3 ranged, and I just try to keep my ranged as far away from the combat as possible. If they draw aggro from archers, I either focus fire down the archers (if they have a short HP bar), or I run the person getting shot behind a wall.

I'm discovering more and more that tanking Warriors almost aren't as good at holding threat as my tanking Rogue did. My Decoy alone had a decently nice cooldown, a nice little explosion when it finishes, and every time I had cast it, it seems to constantly pull aggro towards itself. Even pulling aggro off of my tanks and putting my tanks who attempt to hold aggro to shame. Couple a Decoy with a few nice AoE utility skills or a Duelists skills, and you'll find foes unable to let you go.

I also stacked Defense runes, maxxed my Defense as soon as possible (with points in Dex to wear gear, obviously) and I was nigh unkillable.

Now, this is to say, if my Rogue is tanking far better than a Warrior I respecced and outfitted with the best tanking stuff possible, then there may be something wrong with tanking on Warriors right now.

[Barefoot Warrior]

I envy you folks who can get through this on the highier levels, I finally had to back up to 'Casual' and still can't seem to get through this. I'm stuck in part 3 with the Pride Wraith and it's minions and can't get past this part. Before I can get my team split up on either side of the Boss wraith I get wiped out. I'm a Rogue and have him set up as an archer. Plus, when I do put my team on hold...they don't stay where I put them, they turn loose and go where they want to go. oh well...after two hours of this I gave up and will try again later.

Modifié par Barefoot Warrior, 15 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[rumination888]

Turn off all sustains except Bravery and Control. Turn on Shield Defense only when you're tanking a single elite/boss, or you're swarmed by enemies. Pick up Cleave, and the talent that automatically kills enemies below a certain amount of health. In battles, charge into enemies(you can't charge if you have Shield Defense up) and knock them all around with your shield skills. Keep Cleave up as much as possible. Only use Taunt when an enemy is attacking your party members, not when the enemy just arrived and is looking for a target.

Modifié par rumination888, 15 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[AsaTJ]

Having the same problem. I've also encountered Barefoot's problem with Hold not actually working. I'll try some of these tips and see how it goes.

[T3rror3y3s]

The problem is tanks are ****ing useless in this game to the point that it's laughable.

[nicodeemus327]

T3rror3y3s wrote...

The problem is tanks are ****ing useless in this game to the point that it's laughable.

No, the problem is you don't know how to play one.

People shouldn't just expect to run into a room, taunt and expect everything to stick to them. You have to run around and hit things with closing attacks, use pummel strike, shield bash, scatter and assult to stop eneimes and get threat. Only use taunt for additional waves or when a dps pulls agro.  It's very effective when done right.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 15 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[iamsaige]

No, tanks are broken in this game. They're basically useless in some fights and downright pointless in anything other than the hardest fights on Hard and most of Nightmare difficulties. What point is there to tank when it's faster to just blitz everything with four dps builds, than have to manually control a tank and run around and hit everything. Hell you can just kite around in some fights and it's works far better than having a tank eat the damage.

[rumination888]

iamsaige wrote...

No, tanks are broken in this game. They're basically useless in some fights and downright pointless in anything other than the hardest fights on Hard and most of Nightmare difficulties. What point is there to tank when it's faster to just blitz everything with four dps builds, than have to manually control a tank and run around and hit everything. Hell you can just kite around in some fights and it's works far better than having a tank eat the damage.

The problem with what you just said is that you assume S&S can't DPS. Their single target is the same as a two-handed warrior if built correctly, except they have a lot more physical damage mitigation(its innate, just for equipping a shield) to make up for lack of AoEs. The main difference in their single-target damage is that an S&S warrior plays off a rogue's disorient while a two-handed warrior plays off a mage's brittle.

As far as kiting is concerned.... you're sacrificing the DPS and CCC potential of one character in order to survive. You don't need to kite with a proper tank in the party, hence; you don't lose nearly as much DPS potential.

Modifié par rumination888, 15 mars 2011 - 08:00 .

[Marbazoid]

I've found that managing your targets is essential, as is clustering the enemy mobs by using blind corners, this makes taunting and goading much more effective. Try to focus fire your targets, and only activate shield defense when you need it, that closing attack is really helpful for zipping around and smacking dudes who are going for your dps.

[iamsaige]

Oh, a tank can dps, just not as good, even with a decent build. It's a why bother on easy settings. On harder settings it helps to have a tank vs running around and kiting, and even then, sometimes you do need to run around and kite like a headless chicken.

Fact is, while I appreciate the fights, some weren't balanced at all with what characters you have and when you absolutely need to bring certain characters to 80-90% of a game that you basically don't like, well, the game fails at fun.

I've finished the game with a 2H Hawke, Isabella, Varric and Merrill. No healing, no tanking. Some fights are basically impossible to do if you don't have Anders or Aveline (If you're not a tank Hawke and even then she has better talents) on Nightmare. Mind you a 2H Hawke build damage is absolutely stupid when done right and if you build Merrill well, she's basically a tank. I think if I had gone with a mage or worse, a rogue, it would been that much more harder. Hell Isabella basically made out with the floor half the fights but I kept her, cause I liked her banter and she was far more amusing.

So yeah, Nightmare mode, would be fun, if I didn't have to be pigeoned into playing it in a way that I don't enjoy.

But back to what the OP was talking about, aggro management and playing or using a tank, is pointless unless you're planning to play on nightmare. It certainly helps on the hardest boss fights on Hard, but you can still manage well without a tank. So I'd respec your warrior Hawke to a vanguard/zerker build, take Merrill's specific tree talents and respec and put everything that you had in willpower to get her constitution up and just watch everything get smashed. Hell if you have Anders just for the healing and support, make sure he takes haste, bring along Fenris with a similar build to your Hawkes, and things die even faster.

Modifié par iamsaige, 15 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[T3rror3y3s]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

T3rror3y3s wrote...

The problem is tanks are ****ing useless in this game to the point that it's laughable.

No, the problem is you don't know how to play one.

People shouldn't just expect to run into a room, taunt and expect everything to stick to them. You have to run around and hit things with closing attacks, use pummel strike, shield bash, scatter and assult to stop eneimes and get threat. Only use taunt for additional waves or when a dps pulls agro.  It's very effective when done right.

No I'm pretty sure tanks are useless. Merrill is a better tank when it comes to every single encounter besides boss fights(her aggro is great for AoE packs, but lacks when it comes to bosses). If worse comes to worse I use a decoy to tank if Merrill loses aggro. When a mage can tank better than a S&B tank 99% of the time I would say that they are broken and in fact useless.

[soteria]

Hell Isabella basically made out with the floor half the fights but I kept her, cause I liked her banter and she was far more amusing.

I was wondering. I tried Isabella a time or two, and if the enemies didn't kill her I did. Useless in that group.

[BlackVader]

Having just  finished DA2 for the first time, I have to agree. I played a S&S warrior because I actually like to tank. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to do so effectively in DA2. And from what I've seen, those are the reasons:

- S&S DPS is too low. Not really bad, mind you, but definitely too low to hold the aggro of more than one enemy. Usually, a tank would circle through multiple enemies, hiting each of them a few times and hold aggro from all of them. That's how I'm used to tank, anyway. But with so little damage, there is no way to build enough aggro with only a few hits.

- The angle for the S&S-"Area Attack" is way too small. I think Peter said your basic attacks hit the target in front of you and every target in a 45° angle left and right. Unfortunately, there is STILL shuffling in the game, it just happens much faster. So unless you are fighting in a REALLY cramped spot, enemies will always shuffle in a way that makes hitting more than one extremely unlikely.

- Too many enemies, too large battlefields. With new waves litterally spawning all over the place, your tank simply can't be everywhere at the same time. Much less buid enough aggro to keep all enemies focused on him. Yes, I'm aware that this is intentional and to a certain degree I can totally live with it. But there are just SO many combats where they went overboard with that. There's only so much you can do with CC.


I'm normally not someone to tell BioWare what to do with their games, but I really hope they go back to a more "DA:O-style" combat in DA3. Until then, I think these changes would help tanking:

- Move the attack angle more to the right (or left if you prefer, though right makes more sense as that's where the sword is). Right now it's 45° right and 45° left. Just make that 70° right and 20° left. Still wouldn't allow us to hit more than 2 targets at the same time but at least it would allow us to hit at least 2 targets in the first place.

- Give S&S warriors a significant(!!!) aggro bonus. Maybe make all S&S talents inflict extra aggro against targets that are brittle or disoriented. A passive aggro-bonus on all attack made against stunned/sleeped/paralysed opponents would be great, too. So my tank can at least TRY to get the enemies my mage just Mind Blasted to avoid a quick death. Beacause even with the aggro wipe on stun, most of the time CC only delays the inevitable.

[HawXV2]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

T3rror3y3s wrote...

The problem is tanks are ****ing useless in this game to the point that it's laughable.

No, the problem is you don't know how to play one.

People shouldn't just expect to run into a room, taunt and expect everything to stick to them. You have to run around and hit things with closing attacks, use pummel strike, shield bash, scatter and assult to stop eneimes and get threat. Only use taunt for additional waves or when a dps pulls agro.  It's very effective when done right.

This. I've done this, and it works.

[Auru]

my Hawke is a sword/shield warrior but focused more on offensive stats, just got into act III and the only real defensive ability he has is .. I forget the name but it lowers damage done and boosts damage resistance I've only really used this on boss fights though

earlier in the game it was a little tough, but once I had a good weapon and a few more attacking abilities it all fell into place quite well

the first things I use once I have all the enemies taunted is cleave followed by battery, it's great damage and hits everyone infront of you.. not had a problem at all with keeping them glued to my tank

[nicodeemus327]

T3rror3y3s wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

T3rror3y3s wrote...

The problem is tanks are ****ing useless in this game to the point that it's laughable.

No, the problem is you don't know how to play one.

People shouldn't just expect to run into a room, taunt and expect everything to stick to them. You have to run around and hit things with closing attacks, use pummel strike, shield bash, scatter and assult to stop eneimes and get threat. Only use taunt for additional waves or when a dps pulls agro.  It's very effective when done right.

No I'm pretty sure tanks are useless. Merrill is a better tank when it comes to every single encounter besides boss fights(her aggro is great for AoE packs, but lacks when it comes to bosses). If worse comes to worse I use a decoy to tank if Merrill loses aggro. When a mage can tank better than a S&B tank 99% of the time I would say that they are broken and in fact useless.

The only reason your mage can tank better than an S&B tank is because you don't know how to play either one. A mage can do so much more than simply take damage. They should be healing, dealing damage, creating and exploiting cross class combos and crowd controlling.

[nvp33]

Sorry for the wall of text :-)

I'm playing on nightmare and I was stuck in the last part of chapter 1 with aveline as a tank and Carver and Merril as DPS, I simply couldn't clear the mobs or keep the tank alive.
Then I respecced Merril to be a bloodmage and Fenris to be a 2h tank and brought in the pirate chick to do dps and respecced my mage to be a multitask healer/dps and I feel like I'm playing on easy now.
It is nigh impossible to pull aggro off of Fenris when he's had a few swings into a crowd and used taunt on high HP archers, yes you have to run around and pick up adds when the second and 3rd waves spawns but that's what a tank does, and with my winters grasp and cone of cold (which isn't a cone btw, more like a crecent moon of cold) and Merrils spirit CC abillities, adds really aren't a problem.

It does mean you have to pause some times and issue order and coordinate your attacks and abillities, but guess what, you've had to do that since RPG's was first made. Even BG I and II had aggro systems.
As for the sword and shield tank build, my problem isn't that you can't hold aggro, my problem is that s&s doesn't do enough dmg on nightmare to take down the mobs fast enough so that your healing can keep up with the dmg on the tank. Haven't had any problems with Aveline holding aggro and she has three sustained abillities active on her when I play so she can't fire off any of those fancy moves to hold aggro and she still holds it just fine, but the lack of dmg is a problem imop.

I do agree that it's annoying that you can't equip your characters as you please so you can have aveline be a 2h tank so you can have your chick team or whatever your character combo is, really tiresome that you pick up all sorts of fancy equipment that you can't use because you can't customize your characters equipment or weapons.

Modifié par nvp33, 15 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[HawXV2]

Why is everyone having a hard time? I find it east managing aggro.

[Siven80]

It all depends on what youir stats and abilities your using.

Remember that to cause threat you need to hit and do good dmg. Which means a good Str score.

With W&S you should have a high armor score and combined with a good amount of Con will be all you need for survival. Defense i have recently found isnt really needed for a W&S warrior due to the high amount of dmg armor can mitigate.

The only sustained abilities you need are Shield Defense+upgrade mainly for bosses or when your surrounded by loads of mobs. And Bravery and its upgrades for more threat and damage...which is more threat. The W&S passives are a must.

Taunt is on a 30sec cooldown and costs 30 stam...so its not useful to spam, just use it when you want to grab aggro from a group of mobs who are attacking your mages.

Shield bash i have found is great for threat, at 10stam cost when upgraded and on a 10 sec cooldown it does great damage (threat). Later on get the 2 other shield attacks for combos.

Just remember that damage=threat and that 2handers can take on a group of mobs with no problems and your rogue and mage companions can take on 1-2 mobs each without the need of a tank too and you'll be fine. No need to grab aggro of every mobs about.

[Group Theory]

BlackVader wrote...
- Too many enemies, too large battlefields. With new waves litterally spawning all over the place, your tank simply can't be everywhere at the same time. Much less buid enough aggro to keep all enemies focused on him. Yes, I'm aware that this is intentional and to a certain degree I can totally live with it. But there are just SO many combats where they went overboard with that. There's only so much you can do with CC.

I think thats the main problem with tanks. The initial fight is okay in terms of keeping aggro, but depending on where reinforcements show up it can be difficult. If they all show up on one half of the battle field, it's not too bad. You can probably draw aggro, taunt them, etc. The problem is when they literally show up strewn around the entire battlefiled. There is no way your tank can draw aggro from all of them, and more likely than not some reinforcements just appeared on top of your mages.Thats even more troublesome because they basically get "interrupted" with every attack, and the interrupt sequence is generally longer than the attack animation. So your mages just get stunlocked by some random minions.

[rumination888]

Group Theory wrote...

I think thats the main problem with tanks. The initial fight is okay in terms of keeping aggro, but depending on where reinforcements show up it can be difficult. If they all show up on one half of the battle field, it's not too bad. You can probably draw aggro, taunt them, etc. The problem is when they literally show up strewn around the entire battlefiled. There is no way your tank can draw aggro from all of them, and more likely than not some reinforcements just appeared on top of your mages.Thats even more troublesome because they basically get "interrupted" with every attack, and the interrupt sequence is generally longer than the attack animation. So your mages just get stunlocked by some random minions.

Stop leaving Shield Defense up all the time, and don't even bother using Aveline's Immovable ability. Problem solved.

Also, invest in rock armor and constitution for your mages. Stunlock problem solved.