32 réponses à ce sujet

[Jack-O-Neill]

Hey!

My question is regarding the setting of tactics in DA2. So lets say you want to setup tactics for your mage so that you only use your awesome Crushing Prison against high-rank staggered enemies. In general the question is about how to combine tactics so that more than 1 condition has to be fulfilled in order to trigger some action. This is what I found in the ultimate vanguard guide (great guide btw!):

[1] Enemy > staggered THEN go to next tactic
[2] Enemy > rank elite or above THEN use crushing prison
[other stuff gainst (lower ranked) staggered etc]

Problem is, if 1 doesnt apply, 2 is still checked (I also think its meant to read "[1] ... THEN use condition for next tactic"). This means, that if no staggered enemies are present, prison will be used on any elite or higher one.

My first thought was this:

[1] Enemy > Rank elite or higher THEN jump to 4
[2] [other stuff here]
[3] Enemy > target of tank THEN attack
[4] Enemy > staggered THEN use crushing prison
[5] Self > any THEN jump to 2

Problem is, afaik using Enemy > Status conditions leads to switching to any target fulfilling the status condition (that is if what is written about tactics in DA:O here dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics also aplies to DA2). So the target would be changed from the target set in 1 to just any enemy with status staggered. What you need is something like
IF Enemy > Rank elite or higher AND this same enemy > staggered THEN use crushing prison.

My idea is:
[1] Enemy > Rank elite or higher THEN jump to 4
[2] [other stuff here]
[3] Enemy > target of tank THEN attack
[4] Enemy > any THEN use condition for next tactic
[5] Enemy > staggered THEN use crushing prison
[6] Self > any THEN jump to 2

In the wiki link posted above it is stated that the use of Enemy > any doesnt switch targets. So if I am right it would combine the previous target set in 1 with the new condition (status staggered) in 5. Sadly I couldnt test this yet. Even if this is working, it sucks up quite a few slots. And you know there are other abilities you might want to do something similar for...

Another use case would be
IF Enemy > Target of tank AND this same enemy > rank elite or higher THEN use strongest, most aggro-pulling spell.

Any ideas on how to accomplish this? Feel also free to share any other combinations etc of tactics you know or use!

Modifié par Jack-O-Neill, 15 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[SuicidalBaby]

[1] Enemy elite or higher jump to tactic #3
[2] Enemy normal or lower skip tactic
[3] Enemy > staggered THEN use crushing prison

[Jack-O-Neill]

This leads to the same problem which I mentioned above. Enemy > staggered allows for switching targets between 1 and 3. So it could use prison on any staggered target including lower ranked ones. This way doesnt combine the conditions of step 1 and 3 into ... AND ... THEN ... . A warrior fighting with a 2H sword who is hitting multiple enemies at once often staggers more than one at a time. So this is even a common problem.

[Kal Choedan]

Enemy > Rank Elite or Higher --> Use Condition for Next Tactic
Enemy > Staggered --> Use Crushing Prison

It works either way round; make sure you are using "Use Condition for Next Tactic" and not "Jump/Skip to tactic X".

[exsiben]

1 - Enemy > Rank : normal or lower > skip to 3
2 - Enemy > Staggered > Use crushing prison
3 - Enemy > Target of tank > attack


I guess this wouldn't target the elite though huh...

Modifié par exsiben, 15 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[SuicidalBaby]

1 - Enemy > Rank: Elite or higher > jump to tactic 3
2 - Enemy > Rank : normal or lower > jump to tactic 4
3 - Enemy > Staggered > Use crushing prison
4 - Enemy > Rank: normal or lower > attack

I will test this in an hr or so...

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 15 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Tomark]

Wouldn't it just be easier to say
1-Enemy: Rank: normal or lower > jump to tactic 5

and then have all your tactics for elites until 5?

[SuicidalBaby]

I think thats what my intent was. I just wanted to have it double check the elite + status.

[Jack-O-Neill]

All those setups would do some jump to another tactic but none of them does guarantee that the ability is only used against elite enemies. Despite the jump the condition for using it is still only ANY staggered enemy. What a mess I wished it would be easier to combine conditions with some AND in just one single slot.

[rumination888]

Jack-O-Neill wrote...

All those setups would do some jump to another tactic but none of them does guarantee that the ability is only used against elite enemies. Despite the jump the condition for using it is still only ANY staggered enemy. What a mess I wished it would be easier to combine conditions with some AND in just one single slot.

Kal Choedan's setup worked fine for me.

Modifié par rumination888, 16 mars 2011 - 12:23 .

[Atmosfear3]

Self: Surrounded by at least 3 enemies > Use condition for next tactic
Enemy: Disoriented > Use Scatter

Would this work specifically to only use scatter when Aveline is surrounded and the enemies she is facing around her are disoriented?

[SuicidalBaby]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Self: Surrounded by at least 3 enemies > Use condition for next tactic
Enemy: Disoriented > Use Scatter

Would this work specifically to only use scatter when Aveline is surrounded and the enemies she is facing around her are disoriented?

an enemy 50 feet away could be disoriented and she would fire off the ability instantly only hitting those 3 around her.

[Jack-O-Neill]

Right. This is exactly the problem we have when we want to combine conditions. Imo this is a big flaw in the fighting system. Combat is meant to be (kinda) fast-paced and cross-class combos are important to win (especially on hard +). You want to spare your abilities for those combos until they r needed. Sadly its often very hard (or impossible cause no one was able to give a solution yet) to setup tactics to automatically pull off combos and only do so when needed. So you have to leave those out of your tactics slots, pause your game, and do it by hand. Plz, we really need something to combine conditions! The slot holding "Use condition for next tactic" should always equal true so we can make sure that some abilities arent wasted.

[Togra_blah]

Kal Choedan wrote...

Enemy > Rank Elite or Higher --> Use Condition for Next Tactic
Enemy > Staggered --> Use Crushing Prison

It works either way round; make sure you are using "Use Condition for Next Tactic" and not "Jump/Skip to tactic X".

Thank you Kal!

The "Use Condition for Next Tactic" is *exactly* what i've been needing!

Kept trying to figure out how to do an if x and y then z setup.

Is it possible to have a longer string - like if w and x and y then z?

[Atmosfear3]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Self: Surrounded by at least 3 enemies > Use condition for next tactic
Enemy: Disoriented > Use Scatter

Would this work specifically to only use scatter when Aveline is surrounded and the enemies she is facing around her are disoriented?

an enemy 50 feet away could be disoriented and she would fire off the ability instantly only hitting those 3 around her.

Fair enough. I guess I'll have to be more mindful when I apply disoriented since I'll be the main source of it.

[Erunestaron]

another way to make sure you are only hitting staggered and be surrounded is:

for example:

1: Self: Surrounded by at least 3 enemies -> skip to tactic 14
.
.
.
13: Self: Any -> Skip Tactics
14: Enemy is Staggered -> use-the-skill-you-want-to


if you choose the

1: Self: Surrounded by at least 3 enemies -> use current condition
2: Enemy is Staggered -> use-the-skill-you-want-to

that way he first checks: hey is someone around me? if yes, put this as an additional condition to the next one. if not, do nothing.
than he looks: is a enemy staggered? yes? shoot.

2 will walk through, even if 1 isnt true. It only makes sense, for example, if you are doing sth like this:

1: Enemy: Heatlh < 50 -> use current condition for the next tactic
2: Enemy Rank: Elite or Higher: use-skill-you-want

that way it checks: hey, is there an enemy with Health lower than 50%? oh yeah, there is, is he additional elite-or-higher? oh yes, bam, shoot him. For what do you need sth like this? for example you got 5 Elite opponents, 1 is low health, 4 not. You pick out, for example, with this tactic the low health one, you are killing first him. after that, noone is lower than 50. Now you let your npc shoot everything that is elite.

Modifié par Erunestaron, 20 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[Jack-O-Neill]

Im not quite getting what step 13 in your first example would be good for. You always skip the next step this way, right? And the problem targeting staggered enemies out of close range is still present.

Modifié par Jack-O-Neill, 20 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[Rehwyn]

My tactic for Aveline using Scatter/Disperse was this:

Enemy: DISORIENTED | Use condition for next tactic
Enemy: At short range | Use ability: Scatter

It meant sometimes she just used it on one guy, but she also wasn't running all over the place because I happened to disorient someone on the other side of the battle.

If you really only want her to use it when there are multiple people, do something like this.

Self: Surrounded by at least 2 enemies | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: DISORIENTED | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: At short range | Use ability: Scatter

With this, she'll only use Scatter if she's surrounded by at least 2 people (you can use 3 or 4 if you prefer) and at least one of the nearby enemies is disoriented.

EDIT: That'd actually be a pretty nice combo with Assault + it's upgrade, if you did something like this:

Self: Surrounded by at least 2 enemies | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: DISORIENTED | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: At short range | Use ability: Scatter
Enemy: DISORIENTED | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: At short range | Use ability: Assault

With those 5 tactics, she'd use Scatter on a Disoriented enemy if surrounded and she'd use Assault instead if it's just 1 target (or if Scatter is on cooldown).

Modifié par Rehwyn, 20 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Jack-O-Neill]

Uhm this way its still possible to use scatter on some enemy at short range while neither of the previous steps conditions holds true. Dumb I really want to set up some tactics to do that stuff but still couldnt figure out how!

[Rehwyn]

Jack-O-Neill wrote...

Uhm this way its still possible to use scatter on some enemy at short range while neither of the previous steps conditions holds true. Dumb I really want to set up some tactics to do that stuff but still couldnt figure out how!

If you're referring to my tactics, no, she uses it correctly on a disoriented target at short range.

The reason this tactic doesn't work:

Self: Surrounded by 2+ | Use current condition for next
Enemy: DISORIENTED | Use ability: Scatter

...is because "Self" and "Enemy" are two different referred objects. With the above tactic, if Aveline was surrounded, she'd use Scatter on any Disoriented enemy, not just one nearby.

However, if you use "Use current condition for next" for the same reference (two tactics with "enemy", for example) it only uses the ability if both conditionals apply to a single enemy.

For example:

Enemy: STAGGERED | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Rank Elite or higher | Use ability: Crushing Prison

This tactic ONLY uses Crushing Prison on an enemy that is both Staggered and Elite+. It will not use it on an Elite+ that is not Staggered.

EDIT: By the way, the "Jump to tactic" thing is currently bugged. It doesn't jump at all, just continues down the list as if nothing was there.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 20 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[Jamster1990]

Rehwyn wrote...

For example:

Enemy: STAGGERED | Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Rank Elite or higher | Use ability: Crushing Prison

This tactic ONLY uses Crushing Prison on an enemy that is both Staggered and Elite+. It will not use it on an Elite+ that is not Staggered

Tried this and doesnt work, 'Enemy: Rank Elite or higher | Use ability: Crushing Prison' still goes through reguardless on if the enemy is staggered or not.

[Rehwyn]

Jamster1990 wrote...

Tried this and doesnt work, 'Enemy: Rank Elite or higher | Use ability: Crushing Prison' still goes through reguardless on if the enemy is staggered or not.

Odd, it works fine for me. What platform are you on? I'm using PC.

EDIT: Checked you profile, and see you have PC registered. Not sure what to tell you, because it works quite well on my Merrill.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 20 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Jack-O-Neill]

Yup tried this too and same here (of course). A working way could be a separate "staggered section" at the end of the tactics list right after the enemy>any:attack. Sadly this only works in theory atm, because jumps dont work as intended if Rehwyn is right. I will check this and report back soon.

[1] Enemy>STAGGERED : jump to [4]
[2]...
[3]Enemy>any : attack
// staggered section down here - cant be reached without jump due to 3:
[4] Enemy>STAGGERED : use condition for next tacitc
[5] Enemy>Elite or higher : crushing prison

This way we make sure we only get into the staggered section when there are staggered enemies present. So 4 will always equal true and we have our desired combination. Crushing prison will only be used against staggered elites or higher.

[Jack-O-Neill]

Sry double post.

Modifié par Jack-O-Neill, 20 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[Jamster1990]

sod it i'll just stick to manual casting. way more reliable though a tad annoying