126 réponses à ce sujet

[Sinfulvannila]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

Sinfulvannila wrote...
..if you CC effectively, you can completely negate an enemy's damage dealing ability, thus reducing the need for healing.

On normal, on trash, sure.  Bosses typically cant be CC'd though their adds can be.  At some point, SOMEONE is going to get hit and they will require healing.  It's not possible to run through the game and never get hit; surely that's not what youre suggesting?

Brian Chung wrote...
Did you put any points into Magic,
even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit
you get from healing spells or potions.

According to the ingame tooltip - which i admit may be 100% wrong, like many other things in the game - magic score determines a mage's spellpower, which directly affects spell potency.  For non mages, magic only affects the potency of healing items.

It would be silly to expect melee characters to have to stack a caster stat to get an effective heal from another character, dont you think?

I wasn't suggesting that you can do a perfect run through the game, no. Just illustrating the preventive powers of CC. And yes you can easily make it through the game without a healer mage. Also I haven't run into any bosses so far which cannot be CCed. Cone of Frost, the Web Spit ability and Mind Blast can CC anything.

[chizow]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

Brian Chung wrote...
Did you put any points into Magic,
even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit
you get from healing spells or potions.

According to the ingame tooltip - which i admit may be 100% wrong, like many other things in the game - magic score determines a mage's spellpower, which directly affects spell potency.  For non mages, magic only affects the potency of healing items.

It would be silly to expect melee characters to have to stack a caster stat to get an effective heal from another character, dont you think?

Exactly!  I'm actually shocked if Brian Chung's post is indeed accurate.  If Magic is actually a required stat determining the effectiveness of healing effects received from spells, that's even more poorly conceived than I originally estimated.  If this turns out to be true, it might be the most convincing referendum for the immediate implementation of an accurate combat log or parser....or part of the reason for its glaring omission.

Requiring melee classes to avoid "stat dumping" by requiring points in Magic to boost their heals received is just ill conceived....wow....I guess we should force Mage classes to avoid "stat dumping" DEX so they can walk in a straight line...or boosting STR so they can combat the effects of gravity and breath....

Sargon16 wrote...

The complete obfuscation of numbers and math in DA is one of my only complaints. Understand I'm spoiled by MMO's, and knowing the numbers.

I know why they do it, but it still irks me. They could give a few more numbers in tooltips.

Accurate combat logs and parsers pre-date MMOs by a long-shot.  Keep in mind, most text-based MUDs were nothing more than a combat/chat log and relied on accurate numbers and formulae to define the actual game world and its rules.  Beyond that, even single-player turn-based cRPGs going as far back as the gold box SSI AD&D games had combat logs, as did both BG1 and BG2.  Not sure why anti-combat log folks seem to think MMOs and WoW kiddies are the source of these expectations, when in reality, computer RPGs started out as little more than combat logs/parses.

[Velz]

Skellimancer wrote...

Brian Chung wrote...

Did you put any points into Magic, even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit you get from healing spells or potions.

>Put points into Magic
>Warrior/Rogue

How about you force mages to take strength and we will talk.

YEah seriously thats one big WTF I have with the game. Theres just simply too many stats to focus on from a tank's point of view. I've always felt in other RPG's that the tanks were always slightly over the line in balancing stats and now in this game they actually recommend a melee class take magic to benefit more from healing spells. Goddamn, seriously come on people. Why not go full retard and make casters benefit from Str? *facepalm*

[TSAdmiral]

Brian Chung's post only demonstrates that the game requires far more descriptive and extensive tooltips. I truly hope he is wrong. It's one thing to claim that every class benefits from every attribute in some way, but to require tanks to put points in magic is ... less than obvious, to be polite. On another point he made, it is true that every attribute is meaningful to some extent, but that doesn't mean the benefits of doing so justify it. Maybe strength does increase physical resistance. However, something tells me I'm doing something wrong if I'm getting hit as a mage in the first place.

[Osprey39]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

Cascade Effect wrote...
...Morrigans Heal spell heals for around 53 and the golems punch attacks can hit Alistar for up to 80. Considering that Alistar has just over 300hp, a 50hp heal isn't really cutting it for me.  Alistar had 158hp at level 4 and Heal healed for 46. That seems rather odd to me, that Alistars hp doubled, but the healing spell gained 7.

I agree completely.

For the amount of Magic points you dump into a mage, healing spealls are INCREDIBLY lackluster.  Healing poltices are far superior to mage healing.  In my initial completion, Wynne had 60ish magic, and healed Alistair for 53.  Alastair hadn't put a single point into magic (he had maybe 10 or 11) - yet greater healing poltices healed him for over 130 and Potent healed for over 150. 

I guess mages just aren't supposed to heal in this game.  With the crappy output and the long cooldown I'm thinking thats the case.

Also, it has already been established that "+% to healing received" items are broken and not adding anything to heals.  BioWare is aware of it but I havent heard anything else aside from that.

Unbroken Lineage wrote...
Make use of the other spells in the
healing lines. A single heal spell isn't going to cut it if your party
members depend on a healer to stay up.

On a single healer, definitely.  I use two mages for healing backup.

It seems like self-healing with high-level poltices is just far superior to mage healing, which is probably only intended for use as a backup when characters are stunned, frozen, overwhelmed, CC'd, grabbed or otherwise getting their faces eaten and can't heal themselves.

Ok, I made my mage a Spirit Healer.  Wynne had an unfortunate incident and is no longer with us so I'm it for the healing.  On most fights, I can handle it no problem.  I've got 45 magic, my heal does around 42 I think, Group Heal does about 60.  Those numbers are on me with no healing augs on my gear.  Then you have Lifeward and Cleansing Aura on top of that plus Regeneration.

Alistair is my damage sponge and I have a +15% to healing necklace on him.  I usually save my direct heals for him.  If someone else takes damage, I just toss Regen on them and that usually takes them back to near full.  If everyone is taking damage, I Group Heal then turn on Cleansing Aura.  If someone has pulled agro and is taking continuous damage, I Lifeward them and Regen them until I can taunt the mob off of them.

Does that work for every fight?  No, I need poultices to supplement occasionally but I only need lesser and standard ones.  I rarely use the big ones unless my character gets killed somehow.  This is on hard difficulty by the way.

Yes, the poultices can heal for a lot more but there is a rather obvious downside to them.  They're a finite resource.  Heals are only limited by your mana pool.  I honestly think they are fine considering any mage can easily get the basic Heal spell.

[Selvec_Darkon]

Not really. Healing feels fine to me. Regan is practically useless if you ask me though. Tried using it, but it's more effective to just use heal and group heal, along with potions.

[MrFish]

I'd love to put some points in magic, after I'm done with the mandatory STR burn which I need for armour...followed by it's replacement, which will need a large proportion of the points I earn between bosses to get the next set of armour...



It'd be nice if some of the item prerequesites encouraged balanced stats, if thats the games intention. Like, say, a mix of con and str, for instance. But nah, I need Magic for healing, Obviously, because my warrior is casting the best heals!



Logic is.

[Osprey39]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

Not really. Healing feels fine to me. Regan is practically useless if you ask me though. Tried using it, but it's more effective to just use heal and group heal, along with potions.

Not really.  Regen heals for a hell of a lot more than Heal does and it has the lowest mana cost and the shortest cooldown of any of your healing spells (it's the same cooldown as Heal) so it is perfect for patching someone up that is no longer taking damage.

[SpacelordMofo]

My party is currently in the 10-12 level range and I'm not having too much trouble keeping people alive using just Morrigan's basic Heal spell and poultices. If anyone has trouble keeping their party alive and don't want to take Wynne with you everywhere I suggest heading to the Dalish camp where you can buy unlimited amounts of elfroot. Once you have 99 Health poultices for the fighters and 99 Small Health poultices for the mages you don't need to rely on magic for healing near as much. Crowd control spells are a MUST as well, at least for me.

[SamoanX]

I love this games logic



Mages are the most feared things in ferelden (can't remember how to spell it)....other than darkspawn and half the people fear mages more with their discrimination.



So obviously from this logic.... a warrior needs to pump magic....to get good heals? Jesus, who thought of this?



A warrior has to pump str for armor and skills then dex for defense then con for the not die factor.... now I gotta add magic...ALONG with willpower for my talents? I thought willpower was a douche move but now magic... argles thats booshnee.



I kinda wanna see if any of the dev's actually play warriors and what their builds are because now I'm kinda lost on what to give my 2h warrior stat wise....

[Selvec_Darkon]

Osprey39 wrote...

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

Not really. Healing feels fine to me. Regan is practically useless if you ask me though. Tried using it, but it's more effective to just use heal and group heal, along with potions.

Not really.  Regen heals for a hell of a lot more than Heal does and it has the lowest mana cost and the shortest cooldown of any of your healing spells (it's the same cooldown as Heal) so it is perfect for patching someone up that is no longer taking damage.

I can't think of one fight I've had where both my tanks weren't taking damage at some time. If they aren't taking damage, it would suggest they aren't being used effectively.

[Osprey39]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

Osprey39 wrote...

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

Not really. Healing feels fine to me. Regan is practically useless if you ask me though. Tried using it, but it's more effective to just use heal and group heal, along with potions.

Not really.  Regen heals for a hell of a lot more than Heal does and it has the lowest mana cost and the shortest cooldown of any of your healing spells (it's the same cooldown as Heal) so it is perfect for patching someone up that is no longer taking damage.

I can't think of one fight I've had where both my tanks weren't taking damage at some time. If they aren't taking damage, it would suggest they aren't being used effectively.

Well you play differently than I do.  I only run one real tank.  If I have a 2nd warrior in the party, they are a dps warrior so I don't really want them taking damage continuously.  Occasionally though, one of the squishies (usually myself or Leliana) takes some damage before I can taunt off of them.  Once Alistair gets them off, either by drawing agro, knocking them down or stunning them, that's where I use Regen.  I could cast Heal or use a pot but why?  Regen heals a low con target up very nicely.

Pots are great but I prefer to use them for emergencies only because they aren't exactly easy to replace when you drink them like water.

[Mythgaard]

Stronghold II wrote...
 It's sad that gaming has come to this, so many people are being ruined by MMOs.

Hahahahahahahaha. Welcome to 1974 buddy, with the advent of D&D.  Gigglesnortchuckle. And even then we're only talking about contemporary gaming, I mean technology -from flint spearheads to micro-singularities- is min/maxing the real world. It's human nature.

Kid's today (yeah yeah, I knew everything when I was young too, I just never got the funny from seeing it from the old farts point of view till I became an old fart myself).

Get off my lawn!

[Althernai]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

I can't think of one fight I've had where both my tanks weren't taking damage at some time. If they aren't taking damage, it would suggest they aren't being used effectively.

That is a very odd statement. Don't you feel sorry for them? I remember in Baldur's Gate 2, Minsc actually chided the player for using him this way.

Roleplaying aside, if the characters (tanks or not) are taking heavy damage, they're probably not being used effectively. Ideally, they should be taking either light damage or none at all so healing should not be that crucial.

[Mythgaard]

Althernai wrote...

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

I can't think of one fight I've had where both my tanks weren't taking damage at some time. If they aren't taking damage, it would suggest they aren't being used effectively.

That is a very odd statement. Don't you feel sorry for them? I remember in Baldur's Gate 2, Minsc actually chided the player for using him this way.

Roleplaying aside, if the characters (tanks or not) are taking heavy damage, they're probably not being used effectively. Ideally, they should be taking either light damage or none at all so healing should not be that crucial.

How do you figure that? A tanks entire job consists of eating damage so no one else has to. Tanks eat massive amounts of damage for a living, they dont call them meatshields for nothing. The problem with damage spikes on non-tank characters seems to be aggro mismanagement on the part of the AI.

Example: I send in Alistair, alone, with Threaten activated. Two out of 15 mob's aggro on him, another 10 aggro on the main character (regardless of class or armor, or distance from the actual fight--I think this is because of Level actually, youre generally a level ahead of your teammates) and the remainder run around like speed freaks on a sugar binge, randomly targeting anyone and anything.

[vizering]

I find healing is fine if you use it right.

I find if you just use heal, regen on tank and regen on all other party members you do fine. When the tank is below 50% just do a group heal, heal combination and he is back to full.

[Sinfulvannila]

Pots are only finite in that gold is finite. I think I've eaten over 100 greater healing pots and I still got 136 gold atm, so I'm pretty comfortable using them. I'd rather spend that 136 gold on more pots too than a couple of pieces of gear...

[GranitemonkeyX]

Playing through on 2nd most difficult setting and pretty much just soloing it w/ my mage. The spell combos are so useful and the curses make the "bosses" nearly jokes. I went BM and spirit heal, and use it (group heal) mostly only when one part gets caged/gripped/dragon eaten. Other than that I maxxed my mages magic somewhere around 75 base and nearly heal to full 300 hp w/ the weakest poultice. Who needs a tank when u can CoC/Ice storm/grease/fireball knockdown chain?

[sleepy__head]

Brian Chung wrote...

Did you put any points into Magic, even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit you get from healing spells or potions.

Thats as retarded as expecting me to take biology classes just so the doctors in a hospital can have a better chance of treating my broken rib.

Someone PLEASE tell me that developer didn't know what he was talking about?  If what he was saying is true then that is probably one of the dumbest design elements I have seen in all rpg's.  WHY would I want to waste my warrior's valueable points to help another class do what they are supposed to do well?

[soteria]

Sargon16 wrote...

Do not have the world of warcraft, one healer in the party mentality. Get it out of your head, right now. The sooner you do the happier you will be.

In DA, you need a spirit healer full time healing / buffing. You need a 2nd mage that has at least 2 basic heal spells available, and expect to use them. And you need healing poultices ready, expect to use them.
...

I couldn't disagree more.  In a group of 4, I shouldn't need to have half the group healing to keep one person up.  And, I don't have to.  There's a pay-off between mana spent healing, killing monsters, and controlling them.  I often bring both Wynne and Morrigan along, but that's more because I don't want to waste Morrigan's mana and time healing when she could be killing stuff.

[Sinfulvannila]

I think the mentality is that the magic stat represents training yourself to control your sensitivity to magic and the reason they put it in there is so mages can use the lesser healing pots to greater effect. In any case, raising the targets magic score is unnessecary, healing pots do way more than enough so why complain about it?

[MrFish]

Except that that is boring. Where's the skill in pot chaining? I despised that about NWN online play, where parties didn't bring healers, just brought pots. I for one intend to give pots a cooldown in any mods I make, for sanity's sake. Unfortunately this means I'll have to rebalance healing no doubt to make it less suck.

[Sinfulvannila]

It's a game of strategy, not skill. The way I see it, you're either going to be drinking health potions or mana potions.

[Loc'n'lol]

But you can't use healing pots when you are stunned, knocked down, frozen solid, petrified, being crushed by some magic prison, being pounded by an ogre, eaten alive by a dragon, overwhelmed by just about anything 4 or 8-legged, etc, etc...

[Sinfulvannila]

That is healing's only use though, and only if you don't have any CC to prevent that stuff...