126 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr3xx]

Healing is fine. I think people having trouble with healing are using too much "heal" and not enough regen/heroic defense. I did that too for a long time, and always thought there was an issue with healing... but if you drop heroic defense and regen on the tank, he really doesn't take much damage...back it up with a Lifeward and you're in a good spot.

[cipher86]

JHorwath wrote...
Lifeward is a nice failsafe in case you have to heal another party member instead of the tank. It buys you some time. 

Lifeward is glitched in my game and just doesn't work - I made a topic about it and several other people reported the same.  Makes me a sad panda

[Siven80]

Brian Chung wrote...

Did you put any points into Magic, even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit you get from healing spells or potions.

Hmm, so along with the mandatory 42(atleast)Str needed for armor for my tank, the minimum 26dex , the Con for my Hp and willpower for my stam i need to put points into the Magic stat to gain a bigger effect from being healed.......Sure makes sense but is also really really stupid.

Also, give us some stats on this if its the case. how much does 1 more point in magic increase the healing by etc. 
So much about this game is too vague. While not a min/maxer i do prefer to know what affects what and by how much.

[Itkovian]

Siven80 wrote...

Brian Chung wrote...

Did you put any points into Magic, even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit you get from healing spells or potions.

Hmm, so along with the mandatory 42(atleast)Str needed for armor for my tank, the minimum 26dex , the Con for my Hp and willpower for my stam i need to put points into the Magic stat to gain a bigger effect from being healed.......Sure makes sense but is also really really stupid.

Also, give us some stats on this if its the case. how much does 1 more point in magic increase the healing by etc. 
So much about this game is too vague. While not a min/maxer i do prefer to know what affects what and by how much.

No, you don't really need to give magic. My main is tank and he does fine. Just saving up the bigger poultices for him, and leave the lesser ones for your mages (a lesser poultice will heal Wynne almost to 75%, for example). And in fact, Con does not need to be very high either. 20 CON is good enough. 42 STR should definitely be attained, however, as armour is king.

Itkovian

[Loregothe]

Ahh, how I love the "mandatory" requirements argument. Meta gaming at it's finest.



So someone MUST have XYZ stat

MUST have XYZ skill

MUST have XYZ in their party

MUST use XYZ spell.



I am sure it is IMPOSSIBLE to finish the game without all these mandatory things. There is only ONE way, and you have it all figured out.



Really.



Huh.



:S

[MrFish]

Okay sure have a nice day with a warrior with no strength or no dex or no con. Oh wait and now we have the option to have no magic too. Four stats we just don't need.



Mages only don't need magic and don't need wisdom.



Of course it's not impossible to complete the game without, what a rediculous statement. The problem is that the warrior class requires a fair mix of all stats to be effective, whilst gear and skills dictate depth in the major ones (str/dex). It's contradictive at best. dumb at worst.



I am beginning to wonder if anyone actually ran some proper data simulations to represent stat values, item values and so on across the board to make sure there was some level of balance between mechanic and design. Honestly I'm doubting that very much, and it dissapoints me.

[Xzenorath]

MrFish wrote...

Okay sure have a nice day with a warrior with no strength or no dex or no con. Oh wait and now we have the option to have no magic too. Four stats we just don't need.

Mages only don't need magic and don't need wisdom.

Of course it's not impossible to complete the game without, what a rediculous statement. The problem is that the warrior class requires a fair mix of all stats to be effective, whilst gear and skills dictate depth in the major ones (str/dex). It's contradictive at best. dumb at worst.

I am beginning to wonder if anyone actually ran some proper data simulations to represent stat values, item values and so on across the board to make sure there was some level of balance between mechanic and design. Honestly I'm doubting that very much, and it dissapoints me.

I'm not quite sure how delusional you are... but...

Mages only don't need magic and don't need wisdom.

What?!

My tanks have no problems tanking and my mages have no problems healing. With 2 mages in your group, you can perma stick the heal over time on your tank and use heal everytime it comes up. You just need to trade regens between mages and both of them get to more or less never run OOM. In the very long fights, you'll want to use a mana pot here and there but aside from that, my healers have yet to run out of juice.

If you're only running with 1 mage healer, then you'll need to figure out a way to have CC with your other characters and you'll need alot of healing pots. Control the elites, kill the high damage targets first and focus whatever else is left.

I'll never put any points into magic on my tanks and don't plan on doing so. Whoever said that is out of their minds... using Heal on my Arcane Warrior or using Heal on Allistair provides no better result on either one of them, although my AW's Magic is WAY higher.

[MrFish]

Xzenorath wrote...
What!?

What?

Xzenorath wrote...
I'll never put any points into magic on my tanks and don't plan on doing so. Whoever said that is out of their minds...

You can take that up with him.

[Tennmuerti]

If anything healing seems overpowered to me. After getting Wynn i only ever used potions one or two times during boss battles if at all. I sold all lesser healing pots I found and had about 50 normal healing pots by the end of the game (never made one). Playing on normal on PC with Wynn as the only mage.



Heal as a stand alone spell is not too great but if you use other healing tools given to you like regeneration and mass healing those are the best.

[Althernai]

Mythgaard wrote...

How do you figure that? A tanks entire job consists of eating damage so no one else has to.

No. It's true that the tank should be keeping the enemy off of the weaker party members, but simply sustaining the damage is the least imaginitive and least efficient way to do this. The tank should have some combination of armor, defense and buffs that make it either hard to hit or make hits ineffective for all but the toughest foes.

Also, this should not be the entire job of the tank. It's usually a high STR and/or DEX warrior and should be dealing its fair share of damage as well as using disabler abilities (a good offense is often the best defense).

[Loc'n'lol]

Tennmuerti wrote...

After getting Wynn i only ever used potions one or two times during boss battles if at all. I sold all lesser healing pots I found and had about 50 normal healing pots by the end of the game (never made one). Playing on normal on PC with Wynn as the only mage.

I was doing just that and had similar results, Wynne is truely made of win indeed. But she's also very easy to pass. And the basic heal spell doesn't cut it at higher levels. By itself, it's a great emergency spell but doesn't replace potions.
Now mass heal is another story...

[MrFish]

Althernai wrote...

Mythgaard wrote...

How do you figure that? A tanks entire job consists of eating damage so no one else has to.

No. It's true that the tank should be keeping the enemy off of the weaker party members, but simply sustaining the damage is the least imaginitive and least efficient way to do this. The tank should have some combination of armor, defense and buffs that make it either hard to hit or make hits ineffective for all but the toughest foes.

Also, this should not be the entire job of the tank. It's usually a high STR and/or DEX warrior and should be dealing its fair share of damage as well as using disabler abilities (a good offense is often the best defense).

I think a better wording is "A tank should be Mitigating party damage" so that the others don't have to take it.

That pretty much sums up the tank's job. 

[metatrans]

i bet Brian Chung really regrets posting in this thread.



i wonder how his high dex mages and high magic warriors are fairing though.

[chizow]

Sinfulvannila wrote...

I think the mentality is that the magic stat represents training yourself to control your sensitivity to magic and the reason they put it in there is so mages can use the lesser healing pots to greater effect. In any case, raising the targets magic score is unnessecary, healing pots do way more than enough so why complain about it?

Because this design decision makes no sense, not to mention healing pots also rely on Magic as a modifier, so it really comes off as double jeopardy where one class is continuously penalized for not investing points into a stat that they really shouldn't have to concern themselves with.  It also explains why the caster's Magic rating doesn't increase the amount of health restored from the Heal spell, as the amount is dependent on the target's Magic rating.

I think the real question is why bother defending or attempting to justify a design decision that really makes no sense whatsoever?

[Kahryl]

Healing is far TOO powerful in this game.  I have to echo what someone else said:

Do not have the world of warcraft, one healer in the party mentality.
Get it out of your head, right now. The sooner you do the happier you
will be.

In WoW, a good sixth of all specs had nothing but healing spells in them (5 specs out of 30 possible specs).  So a party of five would be expected to have a healer, and larger parties would expected to have multiple healers.

In DA:O, only one SIXTEENTH of ONE class has healing spells (and a second foursome of them if you take a particular specialization).  Healing spells are not meant to be essential, they are meant to be no better than offensive attacks.  However, they actually made them too powerful - a party with a healer is much stronger in practice than a party with none.

The most popular DA:O rebalancing mod tones down healing spells significantly.

[Wolff Laarcen]

chizow wrote...
It also explains why the caster's Magic rating doesn't increase the amount of health restored from the Heal spell, as the amount is dependent on the target's Magic rating.

I saw the link to the dev post earlier on; that is flat out stupid.  The caster's magic rating determines damage output but not healing?  So If a tank wants his healers to be effective he has to dump points into magic and NOT constitution?  Thats just broken; the tank's primary concern beyond STR and DEX requirements should be to have a high enough CON to give his healers plenty of time to react when he actually does need heals. 

It's almost like the game is telling you 'dont roll or play non-mage characters'.

[OdinTGE]

Brian Chung wrote...
A min/max warrior that puts everything into strength will hit less often if you don't put any into dex, and will have a glass jaw with a 10 CON.

I don't think this is accurate.    According to tooltips and the Missing Manual Project STR and DEX give the same benefit to hit.  So all STR would not mean you'd hit less.

[Brian Chung]

metatrans wrote...
i bet Brian Chung really regrets posting in this thread.

Yeap.

I do know that healing was designed to be scarce in that it forces you to think tactically - positioning, focus fire, disabling crowds, etc., probably matter more than simply having your tank rushing in, bashing everyone and getting healing to offset the damage.

Anyway I talked to Georg and clarified that Magic helps for potions, but not spells.  This was my misinterpretation, as I thought it was potions AND spells (which kind of makes sense), not potions ONLY.

chizow wrote...
It also explains why the caster's Magic rating doesn't increase the amount of health restored from the Heal spell, as the amount is dependent on the target's Magic rating.

I never claimed that the target's magic stat was the ONLY modifier for how much he gets healed by - it was my impression it was a combination of both caster AND target.  As in, the caster would heal a base X + Y bonus based on their magic stat, but if the target also had a higher magic stat above 10, it would add a Z bonus to it (i.e. more receptive to magic).  But it's not the case so arguing about the target's magic affecting spell healing is moot.

i wonder how his high dex mages and high magic warriors are fairing though.

High is hardly accurate, I only put a couple extra points in them, but I
don't leave the non-main abilities at its original base and focus on the
class ones exclusively.  If my warriors take too much damage from a mob and the mage heals are still in cooldown or they've run out of mana, I can have them quaff a potion and benefit from a higher health recovery while the mages recover.

So far, it's been pretty good.  I've taken down both dragons without anyone dying on my first try (hardcore).  Usual party is my mage and Wynne lobbing Heal and Regeneration, Alistair engaging the dragon and whomever as the 4th party member (usually Leliana) plinking with the bow range attack and staying out of the way.

OdinTGE wrote...
I don't think this is accurate.   
According to tooltips and the Missing Manual Project STR and DEX give
the same benefit to hit.  So all STR would not mean you'd hit less.

Yeah, I reread the tooltips and yes, you get a 0.5 +attack for each point in STR or DEX.

However you can also look at it this way, without DEX, your warrior's defense would be lower and he'll probably get hit more often ... and possibly die faster and thus, hit less often as he's dead.

[Osprey39]

Siven80 wrote...

Brian Chung wrote...

Did you put any points into Magic, even as a warrior or rogue? That stat determines how much of a benefit you get from healing spells or potions.

Hmm, so along with the mandatory 42(atleast)Str needed for armor for my tank, the minimum 26dex , the Con for my Hp and willpower for my stam i need to put points into the Magic stat to gain a bigger effect from being healed.......Sure makes sense but is also really really stupid.

Also, give us some stats on this if its the case. how much does 1 more point in magic increase the healing by etc. 
So much about this game is too vague. While not a min/maxer i do prefer to know what affects what and by how much.

I hate to break this to you since you are seemingly in denial but if you think you NEED 42 str on your tank, you're a min/maxer.  I don't have 42 strength on mine and he tanks just fine.

[Wolff Laarcen]

Osprey39 wrote...
I hate to break this to you since you are seemingly in denial but if you think you NEED 42 str on your tank, you're a min/maxer.  I don't have 42 strength on mine and he tanks just fine.

Nothing wrong with being a min/maxer - we end up being better players most of the time.  In this case though I think he was talking about STR prerequesites for armor.

[Loc'n'lol]

metatrans wrote...
i bet Brian Chung really regrets posting in this thread.

Yeah I was thinking about that too...

I ean, for once, a developper dares reply in a game balance thread and he gets trashed.
Not encouraging.

[DragoonKain3]

Considering my main tank is a dodge tank, I think healing is just fine. With Heroic Defense, he just stands in front of even revenants, and all he'd need at the most is regenration, if even at that.



In fact, it was when I switched over to a damage mitigation tank that has my stock of lesser lyrium/health pots to be depleted. Never again. XD

[chizow]

Brian Chung wrote...

metatrans wrote...
i bet Brian Chung really regrets posting in this thread.

Yeap.

I do know that healing was designed to be scarce in that it forces you to think tactically - positioning, focus fire, disabling crowds, etc., probably matter more than simply having your tank rushing in, bashing everyone and getting healing to offset the damage.

Anyway I talked to Georg and clarified that Magic helps for potions, but not spells.  This was my misinterpretation, as I thought it was potions AND spells (which kind of makes sense), not potions ONLY.

Well, bolded statement is largely invalidated by the fact healing is only as scarce as your wallet/inventory allows, given you can rotate at least 500HP (50+100+150+200) per 5s before any +Magic bonuses, or 100HP/s by just guzzling pots.  Most people don't find this style of gameplay enjoyable however, especially given the opportunity cost of spending money on pots.

As for regretting posting in this thread....again, much of these questions and concerns about gameplay ambiguity in threads like this would be largely unnecessary if we had functional combat logs or accurate tool tips.....

Brian Chung wrote...

I never claimed that the target's magic stat was the ONLY modifier for how much he gets healed by - it was my impression it was a combination of both caster AND target.  As in, the caster would heal a base X + Y bonus based on their magic stat, but if the target also had a higher magic stat above 10, it would add a Z bonus to it (i.e. more receptive to magic).  But it's not the case so arguing about the target's magic affecting spell healing is moot.

Oh I never said otherwise, the point of the thread is the observation from many that Heal doesn't heal much at all or scale with Magic as an attribute.  Coupled with your post, I figured the naturally low Magic rating of tanks was perhaps the reason many came to this conclusion that Healing was underpowered, because the Heal itself relied on the Magic rating of the target.  You've since confirmed this is NOT the case, which is good news as basing heal received on the target's Magic rating makes no sense whatsoever. 

The bad news is that Heal amount doesn't scale significantly with the caster's Magic rating either.  After more testing on my own, it seems as if Heal amount is capped as there's very little difference between amount healed with 45 Magic (Wynne) and 59 (Morrigan).  Morrigan heals 54 HP max and doesn't heal more with +5 in items.  Wynne heals 51 HP with 45 Magic but caps out to 54 HP with that same +5 in items.   

[StormbringerGT]

Sigh I killed Wynn in my game.

[Sinfulvannila]

chizow wrote...

Sinfulvannila wrote...

I think the mentality is that the magic stat represents training yourself to control your sensitivity to magic and the reason they put it in there is so mages can use the lesser healing pots to greater effect. In any case, raising the targets magic score is unnessecary, healing pots do way more than enough so why complain about it?

Because this design decision makes no sense, not to mention healing pots also rely on Magic as a modifier, so it really comes off as double jeopardy where one class is continuously penalized for not investing points into a stat that they really shouldn't have to concern themselves with.  It also explains why the caster's Magic rating doesn't increase the amount of health restored from the Heal spell, as the amount is dependent on the target's Magic rating.

I think the real question is why bother defending or attempting to justify a design decision that really makes no sense whatsoever?

Umm, you're wrong about only the target's magic affecting heal spells. I'm asking: why complain about something that can only benefit and not hinder the player?

Modifié par Sinfulvannila, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:43 .