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[Ninja Mage]

You don't even have to see that rivalry path. If you read the codex it says he was becoming less sane every day, and the only reason he could control himself was because Hawke was at his side. He's not an abomination because they mutate and lose control completely, but he's not himself either. KAA is right he's turning into whatever the hell flemeth is

[LobselVith8]

But Justice was a Spirit, not a demon. I believe the developers addressed abominations as mages possessed by demons. Although we know Anders is struggling with the rage he has over the injustice of his people, I don't know if he's an abomination in that particular sense of the word since Justice still seems to be a Spirit. Even Wynne saw abominations as mages who completely lost their humanity to a demon in discussion with the Warden if he or she advocates this particular line of thought.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

But Justice was a Spirit, not a demon. I believe the developers addressed abominations as mages possessed by demons. Although we know Anders is struggling with the rage he has over the injustice of his people, I don't know if he's an abomination in that particular sense of the word since Justice still seems to be a Spirit. Even Wynne saw abominations as mages who completely lost their humanity to a demon in discussion with the Warden if he or she advocates this particular line of thought.

Well, she is likely to be lenient to herself, isn't she? Anyways, there is a huge difference between Wynne and Anders, Wynne never gave up her body, and the spirit never tried to take control.

[Vilegrim]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Did you not bother to read/listen to him as you questioned him prior to your decision on his fate? I can only imagine the people who blame "Vengence" just ESC keyed through all the dialog or something.

He's clearly well aware and completely unrepentant of what he did and the consequences of those actions.

Whcih makes him all the braver and deserving of the title martyr.  Could have planned his decapitation strike better, but good idea poorly executed.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 16 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[Herr Uhl]

Vilegrim wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Did you not bother to read/listen to him as you questioned him prior to your decision on his fate? I can only imagine the people who blame "Vengence" just ESC keyed through all the dialog or something.

He's clearly well aware and completely unrepentant of what he did and the consequences of those actions.

Whcih makes him all the braver and deserving of the title martyr.

Which still doesn't change that I see him as a bloody idiot. A deluded fool is still a fool.

[graciegrace]

Terrorist, plain and simple. Anders forced a war that didn't need to happen because he was so self involved he believed he knew what was best for all mages.

[Vilegrim]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Did you not bother to read/listen to him as you questioned him prior to your decision on his fate? I can only imagine the people who blame "Vengence" just ESC keyed through all the dialog or something.

He's clearly well aware and completely unrepentant of what he did and the consequences of those actions.

Whcih makes him all the braver and deserving of the title martyr.

Which still doesn't change that I see him as a bloody idiot. A deluded fool is still a fool.

In what way?  Mages where going to be annihilated sooner or later, that had been building as far back as DA:O, the templars and the chantry where becoming increasingly eager to declare annulment, better to start the war before the chantry was fully ready, than to wait for them to have the pieces in place.

[LobselVith8]

True enough, Herr, but he seems like the Rivain witches who share their bodies with spirits. Maybe he's unique. It's difficult to say what he's become when be isn't even sure where Justice ends and he begins, and the abominations we encounter in DA:O had no control over their minds or bodies.

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Which still doesn't change that I see him as a bloody idiot. A deluded fool is still a fool.

If he's completely aware of the consequences, "fool" is the last label you can apply to him.  It's freedom or death.  It may be unpleasant, but since he's correct, it's hardly foolish.

[LobselVith8]

I don't see Anders as a fool. He wanted to put an end to slavery, an oppression that's transpired for over a thousand years. Should be have done nothing in the face of this injustice? Should another thousand years have passed before someone was finally willing to stand up to the Chantry and show mages that they can be defied?

[Taleroth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see Anders as a fool. He wanted to put an end to slavery, an oppression that's transpired for over a thousand years. Should be have done nothing in the face of this injustice? Should another thousand years have passed before someone was finally willing to stand up to the Chantry and show mages that they can be defied?

I think DA2 made efforts to disconnect the problem from the Chantry.  They present Elthina as an innocent and caring individual.  The Templars as entirely at fault, and then the Templars break from the Chantry.  And somewhere along the line I learned that the Templars weren't always a part of the Chantry, originally they were independent, so I'm think that's where they're going back.

I suspect we're actually expected to be somewhat sympathetic and trusting of Cassandra and Leliana as agents of the Chantry by the end, even if we side with Mages.

[Teddie Sage]

For me, he's clearly a martyr for the cause of the mages. That's why I haven't killed him. I'd rather support him because it's clear the Chantry is the plague of that world and it needs to be destroyed along with the Circle and the Templars. They need a new order or more freedom.

[huggingtonbear]

Anders is a monster, instead of trying to free his bretheren he put a big fat target on their backs ensuring that they will all either die or live as outcasts (as the non-mages still severely outnumber mages, it's a war they cannot win).

If I had the choice I wouldn't have killed him, let him go, or let him join me, i would have made him tranquil on the spot..because that is the only punishment he truly fears since it will ensure he isn't martyred or a hero in the end.

Modifié par huggingtonbear, 16 mars 2011 - 08:05 .

[Medhia Nox]

You actually think he's a brave martyr Vilegrim? You would seriously use "brave" and "martyr"?

First - NOBODY knows what he did. There's no martyrdom. My Hawke will never speak of him - and neither will all the companions (who seem to all universally dislike him). Everyone who knows what he did is dead - and, if not - I'll be sure to hunt down every mage that was part of his underground and make martyrs of them as well.

I'm a mage player - it's the first character I will always play, but this man is a psychotic terrorist. He deserves nothing but hate - and all those mages that were part of his freedom fighter organization ought to be rounded up and killed (just like the millions of NPCs I killed throughout the game - don't get "moral" now)

And "brave"? This actually makes me angry (in a "this is the internet and only relevant while I'm typing" sort of way).

BRAVE would have been him exorcising Justice. BRAVE would have been him telling me the truth about what he was doing and let me stop him. BRAVE would have been him not being a filthy coward - murdering people who wanted nothing to do with the issues.

If he had attacked Meredith I might have understood. IF he wasn't so bat**** nuts - acting JUST like Meredith - I might have understood.

Anders is filth and I would be concerned about anyone who truly thinks his act of terrorism was justified.

Even on a totally pragmatic level - the idiot just blew up a Chantry. You think the common people throughout Thedas are gonna support mages now? Only in a poorly written world. If the writers portray it as they ought to - now every farmer, every merchant, baker, and candlestick maker is going to rise up and burn witches.

That's what should happen because of Ander's "bravery" - an Inquisition where all the mages of Thedas are now burned at the stake. I don't think this as a character - I think this is how the story should naturally progress. It would make zero sense otherwise.

He has proven the Chantry right - he has proven that mages are evil despots easily corrupted by their power. Now Thedas has no choice but to annul the whole lot of them - good job Anders, you douche.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia, the people of the Andrastian nations weren't supporting mages in the first place because of the Chantry. I doubt bending knee to the Grand Cleric would have changed anything for the plight mages go through when she was doing nothing to stop the transgressions committed against mages. Anders didn't prove the templars right, he showed the mages that the Chantry can be defied, just as Varric says.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, he's only a martyr if you kill him. However, I'm sure he could become a poster-boy for and/or leading figure of the rebellion eventually. There had to be some mages from the Kirkwall Circle who got away and told others what happened. Even if they didn't, there are probably still a lot of angry people in Kirkwall like the templars, Chantry members, etc. who will make what Anders did known. Goodness knows, Sebastian wants his head on pike (and presumably he's gone to Starkhaven to gather up those troops as he threatened to do). As for what Anders is...honestly, I'm not quite sure. Is an abomination capable of loving someone? Would it help people and try to heal them?

In that discussion with Wynne after finding out about her condition, I think Wynne and my Warden talked about how if you retain qualities like mercy, kindness, etc., you're not an abomination because your humanity remains intact. Anders has compassion for others and is clearly loves your Hawke (if you do the romance), but the templar/mage/Chantry thing is basically his blind spot - it's the one thing that causes him to take irrational, extreme measures. In my view, he's a flawed and complex man who can be weak and selfish at times - one who can make some seriously bad decisions thanks to his other half.

[upsettingshorts]

He's a revolutionary as well as a terrorist. He's both, the former is an ideal and objective, the latter is a method and tactic.  It's possible to be one and not be the other, but in his case - he uses one to achieve the other. 

Whether or not he is specifically a martyr as well depends on whether or not he is executed. He's a symbol regardless.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Vilegrim]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You actually think he's a brave martyr Vilegrim? You would seriously use "brave" and "martyr"?

First - NOBODY knows what he did. There's no martyrdom. My Hawke will never speak of him - and neither will all the companions (who seem to all universally dislike him). Everyone who knows what he did is dead - and, if not - I'll be sure to hunt down every mage that was part of his underground and make martyrs of them as well.

I'm a mage player - it's the first character I will always play, but this man is a psychotic terrorist. He deserves nothing but hate - and all those mages that were part of his freedom fighter organization ought to be rounded up and killed (just like the millions of NPCs I killed throughout the game - don't get "moral" now)

And "brave"? This actually makes me angry (in a "this is the internet and only relevant while I'm typing" sort of way).

BRAVE would have been him exorcising Justice. BRAVE would have been him telling me the truth about what he was doing and let me stop him. BRAVE would have been him not being a filthy coward - murdering people who wanted nothing to do with the issues.

If he had attacked Meredith I might have understood. IF he wasn't so bat**** nuts - acting JUST like Meredith - I might have understood.

Anders is filth and I would be concerned about anyone who truly thinks his act of terrorism was justified.

Even on a totally pragmatic level - the idiot just blew up a Chantry. You think the common people throughout Thedas are gonna support mages now? Only in a poorly written world. If the writers portray it as they ought to - now every farmer, every merchant, baker, and candlestick maker is going to rise up and burn witches.

That's what should happen because of Ander's "bravery" - an Inquisition where all the mages of Thedas are now burned at the stake. I don't think this as a character - I think this is how the story should naturally progress. It would make zero sense otherwise.

He has proven the Chantry right - he has proven that mages are evil despots easily corrupted by their power. Now Thedas has no choice but to annul the whole lot of them - good job Anders, you douche.

THE MAGES WHERE ALL GOING TO BE KILLED ANYWAY!  His way the chantry suffers! This way there is a war and maybe just maybe the Chantry dies for the crimes it has commited over millenia, better the world fall in shadow and flame then the 'chant of light' is sung another day.

Oh and if no one knows what Anders did, how are they going to blame the mages?  Name any mage you accuse of it and they become that banner, the first man to strike against the Chantry, the first man to call them on their crimes. 

Let Thedas burn and the divine be put to the blade. 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 16 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Medhia Nox]

Hmm... there's a very current day comparison to be made with that thought process - but I won't derail the post by stating it (though it should probably be obvious).

[Vilegrim]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hmm... there's a very current day comparison to be made with that thought process - but I won't derail the post by stating it (though it should probably be obvious).

I know, which is why I do not indulge in that thinking outside of video games.

[Medhia Nox]

So you don't actually believe what your saying - you just support it hypothetically?

[SgtElias]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's a revolutionary as well as a terrorist. He's both, the former is an ideal and objective, the latter is a method and tactic.  It's possible to be one and not be the other, but in his case - he uses one to achieve the other. 

Whether or not he is specifically a martyr as well depends on whether or not he is executed. He's a symbol regardless.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Medhia, the people of the Andrastian nations weren't supporting mages in the first place because of the Chantry. I doubt bending knee to the Grand Cleric would have changed anything for the plight mages go through when she was doing nothing to stop the transgressions committed against mages. Anders didn't prove the templars right, he showed the mages that the Chantry can be defied, just as Varric says.

While I agree bending knee to the Chantry wouldn't have helped in the end, you can't deny that besides being the poster-boy for the mage revolution, he's also probably become the templar examle for how far mages will go, and how far they can fall. Right or not, and despite my personal adoration of the man, I can't imagine a better excuse to oppress mages further than a half-abomination apostate who killed the Grand Cleric of the Free Marches in cold blood.

So I guess what I'm saying is that he did both.

Modifié par SgtElias, 16 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Vilegrim]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So you don't actually believe what your saying - you just support it hypothetically?

It is a hypothetical, in the world of DA2 where slaughtering people by the hundreds is not even blinked at, where 'Champions' and 'Wardens' can be hailed as heroes for slaughtering clans of non-believers, where people born different are damned to servitude under constant threat of death, Anders actions make sense and are right. 

We do not live in a world like that anymore.

It's the same seperation that allows me to play an Amarr Loyalist in EVE-Online.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 16 mars 2011 - 08:49 .

[magnuskn]

Anders is a terrorist and got knifed for great justice.

[Taleroth]

SgtElias wrote...

While I agree bending knee to the Chantry wouldn't have helped in the end, you can't deny that besides being the poster-boy for the mage revolution, he's also probably become the templar examle for how far mages will go, and how far they can fall. Right or not, and despite my personal adoration of the man, I can't imagine a better excuse to oppress mages further than a half-abomination apostate who killed the Grand Cleric of the Free Marches in cold blood.

So I guess what I'm saying is that he did both.

 It's not an isolated context, however.  It's been mentioned that the peace with the Qunari is broken.  You can't imagine a better excuse to oppress them.  I can't imagine them having the luxury to try.