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[Mria]

Is there anyway to avoid anders going Osama bin-laden and destroy the chantry tower ?

If there is this will lead me to take over as the new viscount ?

sorry if there is another post about this already but couldnt find it anywhere so if anyone knows how to do it plz let me know

[Vilegrim]

Mria wrote...

Is there anyway to avoid anders going Osama bin-laden and destroy the chantry tower ?

If there is this will lead me to take over as the new viscount ?

sorry if there is another post about this already but couldnt find it anywhere so if anyone knows how to do it plz let me know

1) No, he finds a way.  2) Side with the Templars and kill Anders.

[da0Xeffect2]

Anders' theory was that there needed to be action and there was no peaceful solution. There needed to be action. He felt that a peaceful solution would only be temporary and mages would be in shackles at the end of the day. Technically, he was probably right but he destroyed possibly the only chantry with some sympathy for mages. Another mistake was destroying the chantry with a devout follower in Sebastian who may want to destroy all mages with his holy Starkhaven army. So he is basically a crazed extremist or a hero for mages. Your call

[Medhia Nox]

@Vilegrim - I see. You take a more literal approach to the gaming world.

I'm given no options to take more peaceful paths - so "killing hundreds" is just a game mechanic to me. It's the only way to gain XP - if they made a "Work to gain XP" option - I'd choose that in an RPG I took "seriously" (meaning I wanted to play it according to my morals).

So sure - in a world of "I'm actually a murderer of hundreds." I suppose in that sociopathic hypothetical - Anders isn't quite as repulsive, he's still idiotic because I think he set the "mage cause" back permanently.

He's not a hero for mages - any mage who truly wanted freedom should know that Anders has destroyed their freedom. Their only option now is to become like Tevinter.

[The Baconer]

He's a compulsive abomination. He didn't free the mages so much as forced them into a fight for survival in the face of the impending Exalted Marches. If he really wanted to free the Kirkwall mages, he could have just nuked Meredith while she was sitting in her office. The only one who did any liberating was Hawke, and according to the epilogue, it's Hawke's name that the mages hail (assuming you sided with them.)

Hopefully he dies forgotten.

[Vilegrim]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Vilegrim - I see. You take a more literal approach to the gaming world.

I'm given no options to take more peaceful paths - so "killing hundreds" is just a game mechanic to me. It's the only way to gain XP - if they made a "Work to gain XP" option - I'd choose that in an RPG I took "seriously" (meaning I wanted to play it according to my morals).

So sure - in a world of "I'm actually a murderer of hundreds." I suppose in that sociopathic hypothetical - Anders isn't quite as repulsive, he's still idiotic because I think he set the "mage cause" back permanently.

He's not a hero for mages - any mage who truly wanted freedom should know that Anders has destroyed their freedom. Their only option now is to become like Tevinter.

Yes, in the gaming world I take a far more harsh stance than I ever would in real live, because of the lack of other options, it is 'either kill the mages' or 'strike first' no middle ground, no measured political action, just violence one way or the other, in that world Anders is right, better to die in a hopeless war then go quietly.  

The Templars as portrayed in both games where building up to mass annulments, so striking first and hard makes sense in that context.   In any real world context he is a monster, in the DA world? No his actions make perfect sense, given what is implied to be coming and the Chantrys unwillingness to stop it, and in some cases open support of mass executions (or traquility, which is death anyway)

[Lianaar]

(Sorry, this will be long)

This is a very interesting question and also shows the real strength of Dragon Age games:
perspective.

This means, that every action can be put in a different light and will result in a different feeling for it. Your paradigms and believes decide whether he is a hero or an anti hero. For each of my characters, he'll be something different.

There are quite a few scenarios that might be the truth from my perception (as a player) and we have contradicting information from different perspectives:

 1) spirits are harmless creatures

- Wynne said, spirits are harmless, merged with one and it was to our aid as long as we kept playing with Wynne
- Anders said often enough to Merril, that the folks of the Fade are categories in evil demons and good spirits. One wishes to kill people, the other wishes to aid them. He claims these entities are embodiments of our sins and virtues
This does raise a lot of questions though.

a) Is this what always happens when spirits and human merge? Is our body and mind as well as the way spirits are simply not compatible? Or because spirits only can focus on a single thing (the virtue or sin they embody),  they can not alter paths?
(The spirit was pissed about the Romance, as it distracted Anders from the goal. He hated anything that  distracted Anders. He seemed to be pretty one dimensional.)
Is it safe for those who are “pure” (provided such thing exists at all) and harbour no negative feelings (impersonated by demons), thus don’t corrupt the spirit and their unity will be for the best of all?
c) Is it safe if you are not tainted by the corruption? Anders IS a Grey Warden. He left the organisation but (as Alistair put it) “the fun part” sticks (confirmed by Anders). He is host of darkspawn corruption. Was that what made the spirit turn and twist?

 2) spirits are entities of the Fade and it doesn't matter what Chantry people think of them, they still want just one thing: getting into our world.
- I do not know how good the Keeper and Merril represent the believes of all Dalish as opposed to this group. However they both indicated that all creatures of the Fade are dangerous. They didn’t seem to believe there is any difference between good or bad entities of the Fade. They all want something from mortals.
- We don’t really know what happened to Wynne in the long run, do we? We have not seen her being merged with the spirit for decades
- Anders changes (clothing, mood, banters indicate he has something on his mind and as Varrick says, Blondie is no more fun). He seems to be preparing for disaster, I always had the feeling that he seems to be preparing for his own death. I do not think he expected to survive this (giving the pillow to Varrick, or trying to).

Another analogy: the demon of Merril and the spirit of Anders:
Merril longed for a past injustice (even if justifiable from some perspectives) to be corrected, and thus gain the lost lore of the Elvhen. A demon noticed and started to make a web. A lot of sweet talking and whispering enfolds. Merril is now convinces the best is to use the demon, for so many good things came from it. The demon convinces her to do something dangerous: build the mirror through which the demon can come into our world. Reason: only through this can you save lore.

Anders longed for a current injustice (even if justifiable from some perspectives) to be corrected, and thus gain the lost freedom of the mages. A spirit noticed and started to make a web. A lot of sweet talking and whispering
enfolds. Anders is now convinces the best is to use the demon, since so many good things came from it.  The spirit convinces him to do something dangerous: merge with the spirit through which the spirit can come into our world. Reason: I am a virtue and I would die without you. 

3) he is the counterpoint of Meredith

Meredith wanted to ensure the safety of Kirkwall, no matter what. An outer force, the idol sword, built on her fears and hopes and step by step pushed her into the direction of given disaster. Somewhere in the process she crossed that hard to define red line.

Anders wanted to ensure the freedom of mages, no matter what. An outer force, a spirit he merged with, built on hir fears and hopes and step by step pushed him into the direction of given disaster. Somewhere in the process he crossed that hard to define red line.

4) A new creature
Life in this place is so old, we can not even fathom what all has been and will be. Flemeth, the child of Morrigan, the Dreamers or the Dreamer abominations, the cursed Keeper in DA:O, Sandal, the Architect and we could go on with the endless list of creatures that fits neither lore we know, be it Dalish, the Chantry's, the mages etc. This can be something of old, or something new. Unfitting and unique.

Not to mention it can be a mixture of the above?

Personal opinion:
I do have a suspicion that Anders had moments when he saw the change in himself and feared it. For so long he kept saying it is not the merging with spirits that is dangerous, only blood magic…. Probably something the spirit said to him (and who knows, might even be right). But he kept losing control. He changed and the spirit is of different nature, it doesn’t change. An inner battle is taking place and that battle was neither lost nor won. Blowing up the Chantry was something to appease the spirit, and something that was meant to be the end of this state for Anders. He did say, that long after he and I are gone, Justice will still be here (so he presumed that Justice lied to him when he said, he would die without his aid).

My character being friends to him just told him to leave and never return.
My character rivalling him simply executed him for the crime of mass murder of anyone who was in the Chantry.
My blood mage will be happy for him and just kill that Starkhaven Chantry boy

My list is not explicit. I bet there are quite a few other aspects to it. I would be curious to hear.

Modifié par Lianaar, 16 mars 2011 - 10:07 .

[jxd73]

So many times when I was talking to Anders, I wish there was the "cry me a river" option from ME2.

Modifié par jxd73, 16 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[Lord Atlia]

Anders is an idealist, he sees only in black and white. He likes mages because they are good, he hates blood mages because they are bad, he hates templars because they are bad, he doesn't care about individuals within each category and is hostile towards those they don't fit into his view of things.

[Lithuasil]

He did what he deemed necessary to improve a state he felt unbearable. What offended (and somewhat flattered) me the most is that he didn't ask me "out of fear that I'd support it". (And a justified fear at that)

[TJPags]

The answer to this question is simple.  He's both.

Particularly if you kill him, he fits the second definition here perfectly:



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 /ˈmɑrtər/ Show IPA

–noun
1.
a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2.
a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.
3.
a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4.
a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.
–verb (used with object)
5.
to make a martyr of, especially by putting to death.
6.
to torment or torture.
 
from Dictionary.com
 
He clearly was willing to suffer, even die, for the cause he chose - freedom from the confines of Circles and supervision of the Chantry for mages.  He set off that bomb to, as he told us, force people to choose a side in the debate on whether mages should have to be in the Circle.  Either support the Chantry, and keep mages locked away and under the control of the Templars, or to support mages, and allow them to live and walk free.
 
However, he's also a crazed abomination.
 
He's possessed by a spirit.  That's clear.  The spirit certainly isn't look too altruistic in DA2.  In my opinion, Justice is bordering on demon in DA2.  That's if there is actually any distinction between spirit and demon in the first place, other than simply their affect on people.
 
And IMO, he's crazed.  The building he chose to blow up, while it can be seen as a symbol of the Chantry, the organization which controls the Circles, and by extension, mages.  Unfortunately, the buildling was filled with innocent people - worshippers, homeless, servants, delivery people, visitors, people living in the surrounding buildings, or walking on surrounding streets, or in surrounding shops, or in the square, etc - none of whom lifted a hand to lock mages away.  Some people may argue that they didn't do anything to stop it, either.  That presupposes that it needs to be stopped - not the topic we're on here.  It also supposes that there was anything they could have done - unlikely, and also not the topic here.  The question is whether they did anything to keep mages in the towers.  The answer is no.
 
The people he wanted to get, or should have gotten, were the Templars.  Those, he didn't get - except for whatever few may have been in the Chantry or the surrounding streets.  He chose the wrong target.  Even if he had assassinated the Grand Cleric  - the head of the Chantry in Kirkwall - it would have arguably been a proper target.  But innocent people?  Wrong way to go.


So, he was both.

[Zenstrive]

He is an embodiment of Vengeance, and avatar of justice corrupted by unchecked rage and fed by the leak of The Fade in Kirkwall

[Vandicus]

Both technically, though I don't think he fits the connotation of martyr since in my playthroughs, no one will ever remember him.

I think Anders was the worst thing that ever happened to mages. For example, if one doesn't free the mages in Fereldan, they can travel all over the world with permission from the order, once they're considered experienced enough to handle the temptation of demons.

Anders decided that he wanted the problem of the restriction of mages dealt with now, and decided to kill hundreds or thousands of innocents to do this. His reasoning? Anders clearly believes that by blowing up the Chantry, he will cause the Templars and normal people to attack or further oppress mages, thus forcing mages to rebel. This is crazy, he's intentionally trying to validate the ideas of extreme mage haters so that more people join the mage haters, forcing the mages to fight, most likely to the death.

[LobselVith8]

SgtElias, I see your point, but the Circles broke free from the Chantry, so it's really not an issue of what the templars think at the moment. The mages aren't under Chantry control right now because of Anders, so it's really a matter of what follows. While that might change, the templars aren't even taking orders from the Chantry anymore, so it's hard to say who the Chantry would send to get the mages back under control when their military defected (and I don't believe we know the reasons why, or how they'll deal with their lyrium addiction). The victors tend to decide how history is written, after all, so I think the view of Anders will depend on who ultimately wins, and who loses. I doubt the mages will vilify the man who helped set them free from slavery, though.

[LobselVith8]

Mria, Anders was trying to end slavery, he wasn't a religious fanatic with a hatred towards women. The comparison is, quite frankly, insincere and wrong, verging on going after a theatrical example rather than a factual comparison. Ending a brutal cycle of slavery and oppression is what Anders was trying to do.

DaOxeffect2, doing nothing for the mages isn't the same as showing sympathy for them.

[Ariella]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You actually think he's a brave martyr Vilegrim? You would seriously use "brave" and "martyr"?

First - NOBODY knows what he did. There's no martyrdom. My Hawke will never speak of him - and neither will all the companions (who seem to all universally dislike him). Everyone who knows what he did is dead - and, if not - I'll be sure to hunt down every mage that was part of his underground and make martyrs of them as well.

The greatest martyrs are those who die alone, in the dark, with no one to hear or see.

[Clonedzero]

his goal wasn't to kill the chantry or kill the grand mother(?) he wanted to force the war between templars and mages into actually happening instead of dragging it out slowly.

in that regard i agree with him. force the war to happen instead of dragging the whole thing out. but his method was a bit extreme, i woulda preferred blowing up the templars barracks or assassinating meredith or something

so i support the goal but not the method.

[Vandicus]

Ariella wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

You actually think he's a brave martyr Vilegrim? You would seriously use "brave" and "martyr"?

First - NOBODY knows what he did. There's no martyrdom. My Hawke will never speak of him - and neither will all the companions (who seem to all universally dislike him). Everyone who knows what he did is dead - and, if not - I'll be sure to hunt down every mage that was part of his underground and make martyrs of them as well.

The greatest martyrs are those who die alone, in the dark, with no one to hear or see.

He who trains his tongue to quote the learned sages, will be known far and wide as a smart ass. 

Seriously, quoting stuff that is supposed to sound profound is more annoying than constructive. Just because something is a quote doesn't make it right.
 

[SamFlagg]

Something I find particularly troubling is Anders absolute insistence back in awakenings that the revolutionaries acting would be a great disaster for the mages (IE the reason you went out and fetched Ines the botanist, to bring some sense to the college of magi.) For Anders to go so completely against those sentiments belies a completely fundamental change in his character through the merging of himself and Justice.

As much as he claims they are one now, after reflection it seems that it is not a 50/50 split in merged personality, and as time went by it appered that Anders was losing his grip on what was left of Anders.

(Also a side note, the decision to kill him, noting that he expected it and offers no resistance does seem to suggest that in fact taking his life is in fact, just)

[TJPags]

SamFlagg wrote...

Something I find particularly troubling is Anders absolute insistence back in awakenings that the revolutionaries acting would be a great disaster for the mages (IE the reason you went out and fetched Ines the botanist, to bring some sense to the college of magi.) For Anders to go so completely against those sentiments belies a completely fundamental change in his character through the merging of himself and Justice.

As much as he claims they are one now, after reflection it seems that it is not a 50/50 split in merged personality, and as time went by it appered that Anders was losing his grip on what was left of Anders.

(Also a side note, the decision to kill him, noting that he expected it and offers no resistance does seem to suggest that in fact taking his life is in fact, just)

I'd forgotten that, but you're right.  For all his anti-Circle attitude in DAA, he was pretty insistent that revolutionaries could push things too far and make matters much worse.

I wonder if this apparent change is a result of poor writing, a character retcon, or a result of the Justice possession?

And if the last - what does this say about Justice, that he amplified certain feelings in Anders while eliminating (apparently) others?  Sounds like something a demon does, no?

[Clover Rider]

TJPags wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...

Something I find particularly troubling is Anders absolute insistence back in awakenings that the revolutionaries acting would be a great disaster for the mages (IE the reason you went out and fetched Ines the botanist, to bring some sense to the college of magi.) For Anders to go so completely against those sentiments belies a completely fundamental change in his character through the merging of himself and Justice.

As much as he claims they are one now, after reflection it seems that it is not a 50/50 split in merged personality, and as time went by it appered that Anders was losing his grip on what was left of Anders.

(Also a side note, the decision to kill him, noting that he expected it and offers no resistance does seem to suggest that in fact taking his life is in fact, just)

I'd forgotten that, but you're right.  For all his anti-Circle attitude in DAA, he was pretty insistent that revolutionaries could push things too far and make matters much worse.

I wonder if this apparent change is a result of poor writing, a character retcon, or a result of the Justice possession?

And if the last - what does this say about Justice, that he amplified certain feelings in Anders while eliminating (apparently) others?  Sounds like something a demon does, no?

It was the retcon imo=].

[Vandicus]

TJPags wrote...

SamFlagg wrote...

Something I find particularly troubling is Anders absolute insistence back in awakenings that the revolutionaries acting would be a great disaster for the mages (IE the reason you went out and fetched Ines the botanist, to bring some sense to the college of magi.) For Anders to go so completely against those sentiments belies a completely fundamental change in his character through the merging of himself and Justice.

As much as he claims they are one now, after reflection it seems that it is not a 50/50 split in merged personality, and as time went by it appered that Anders was losing his grip on what was left of Anders.

(Also a side note, the decision to kill him, noting that he expected it and offers no resistance does seem to suggest that in fact taking his life is in fact, just)

I'd forgotten that, but you're right.  For all his anti-Circle attitude in DAA, he was pretty insistent that revolutionaries could push things too far and make matters much worse.

I wonder if this apparent change is a result of poor writing, a character retcon, or a result of the Justice possession?

And if the last - what does this say about Justice, that he amplified certain feelings in Anders while eliminating (apparently) others?  Sounds like something a demon does, no?

The way the difference between a spirit and a demon is defined also makes the possibility that Justice is now a demon a distinct possibility. If I recall correctly, Justice defined a spirit as one who was not interested in experiencing the mortal world and who did not experience the envy that demons did, which is why spirits are so rarely encountered, they are simply apathetic to Thedas. Now it seems Justice, or Vengeance as Anders calls him, is deeply concerned about remaining "alive" since he went so far as to possess a living being, something that he stated was not attractive to him while he was in his dead Warden body.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I'd forgotten that, but you're right.  For all his anti-Circle attitude in DAA, he was pretty insistent that revolutionaries could push things too far and make matters much worse.

I wonder if this apparent change is a result of poor writing, a character retcon, or a result of the Justice possession?

And if the last - what does this say about Justice, that he amplified certain feelings in Anders while eliminating (apparently) others?  Sounds like something a demon does, no?

If you read the codex, especially the one about Anders after Act 2, he was becoming more and more paranoid and was losing control more and more. At the end, he says that he and Justice are one. So either they become fully fused (which is not too dissimilar from an abomination), or they were both very confused (see Justice in the fade in DA2).

That said, Justice turned to Vengeance in large part because of  Anders hatred for Templars.

So in Awakening, it seems like Anders was keeping his resentment hidden and in check. And was thus wiser. Now, it changed and he starts losing more and more control as time goes on, with Justice more and mroe thinking that he is in fact Anders. Whether the fusion was real or not, I can't say for sure.
But I don't think Justice is the only thing to blame here. Anders also carries blame. And he said so himself at the end.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[LobselVith8]

SamFlagg wrote...

Something I find particularly troubling is Anders absolute insistence back in awakenings that the revolutionaries acting would be a great disaster for the mages (IE the reason you went out and fetched Ines the botanist, to bring some sense to the college of magi.)

That's because Wynne addresses that the Chantry would rather murder the mages than see them free. That's why she says they will "never be free."

[Taleroth]

TJPags wrote...

I wonder if this apparent change is a result of poor writing, a character retcon, or a result of the Justice possession?

Justice seems a pretty clear explanation.  That I'm surprised it's so hard for people to understand.

Justice was a vengeful jerk in Awakening.  Only held back by the Warden-Commander.