157 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

A little from column a, a little from column b.


What makes Anders interesting to me is that he's not a traditional abomination. He didn't make a pact with a demon, and whether Vengeance is a 'sin' or not- like the other demons we see- tends to be up to personal interpretation. Vengeance and Revenge are often interchangable words that we choose depending on our opinion and context, and our opinion and context vary wildly depending on who we are, which is then dependent on our upbringing, civilisation, etc.

It can be argued that Anders is just another abomination, and it can be argued that Justice isn't a true demon in the sense that we've been shown demons in the first part of the DA series. He was corrupted internally- something we've not encountered in the series- and he has an aversion to others of his 'kind'- making him, for the time being, unique amoung denziens of the Fade.

Of course, he's labeled as a demon- but as they go, he's different from the rest. He's on a journey to right a wrong- Justice is more the dark side of war, the wading in the intestines of your enemy and your fellow soldier mixed together, the fear, the shades of grey morality, instead of the pure, shining light of wanting to do what is Right as we see in Awakenings.

Modifié par Valentia X, 17 mars 2011 - 04:47 .

[EscherEnigma]

I'm confused why people say the war didn't need to happen. I think the end of the game makes it pretty clear that Meridith wouldn't stop until she had the Kirkwall circle annulled, she was just looking for an excuse. Heck, when Anders blew up the chantry right in front of her, takes full blame/credit, and makes it clear that he acted alone, what does she do?

"Well Anders, might fine job there. I'm gonna go kill all the people that had nothing to do with it."

Sorry, but she simply wasn't going to stop. And the Grand Cleric wasn't going to stop her either. She might have been hoping for a peaceful resolution, but just like with the Qunari she was letting her optimism that things would work out get in the way of actually doing something.

So yes. The war needed to happen. Because no one was going to stop Meridith, not even the Grand Cleric as her "compromise" was always just to try and delay things a little longer, not ever to solve anything.

[InvaderErl]

There was absolutely no need to blow that Chantry up murdering innocent people just so that there would be no compromise. Anders certainly sees himself as a martyr but he's a terrorist plain and simple. Anders is the kind of person that keeps the cycle of violence going, he's just Meredith's counterpart.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[Raiil]

I think that the war didn't have to happen- in the sense that had Anders had not gone and pew pewed the Chantry, the Rite of Annullment could have been put off- even Meredith had to find a reason. Thedas didn't need, in a sense, for mages to be free- some people prefer security over freedom, as it were, particularly since it's their security, and not their freedom, at stake. :/


The war needing to happen is more of a moral or philosophical view to take.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

He became kind of Spartacus for mages. People like that move history, and can't be absolutely true devided in good or evil camps.

Still, I always thought that a high intelligence and mental concentration should actually lead circle-slaves to inventing of more peaceful and smart solution. If you are smart, you clearely must understand slow, thoughtful way of breaking the opression, like First Enchanter Irving did.

[Pileyourbodies]

Actually anders isn't even mentioned by varric. The Champion becomes the rally for mages.

[Lianaar]

The war was not avoidable, but not because of Anders.

Orlais and the Divine already decided to march against this Circle. It didn't matter what Anders did in the grand scale. The Chantry isn't dead at all. The Chantry already took a chance (not Kirkwall Chantry, but Orlais: center of the Chantry).

Kirkwall is but a small town (compared eg to the whole Ferelden or Free Marches or or or) and while many eyes rest on Kirkwall during this little fiasco, blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwal will not decide the fate of Thedas.

I do agree, that Anders was the worst possible thing to happen to the mages Because even people who felt sympathetic with the mages now feel distanced and will side with the Templars because of Anders. If it was the Orlais forces that came and found Meredith, then maybe they would have removed her as an abomination.

I really do not understand why Kirkwall Circle was this important. It was just one of many and in most circles life has been way better then here. Even when abominations took over a circle, Templards were able to be convinced not to kill everyone on sight, which is a huge achievement. It is easy to say I side with the mages, no slavery should be allowed, from sitting in your safe chair. However if you just saw half the circle become bloodmages and abominations and your kids happen to live there? Would you really risk the life of your children for a: oh, that mage appears to be innocent? Especially knowing of Desire demons?

Let's face it, becoming an abomination for mages is an occupational hazzard. You might live through your life without ever facing it, but the risk comes with the job. Tough luck, you didn't chose this job.

Modifié par Lianaar, 17 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Spatchmo]

I saw on the first page that I wasn't the only one to get X-Men vibes from the Anders plotline. As I stated in another thread, I don't think Anders or Justice are fully to blame. Justice, like the Phoenix Force in X-Men, was a benevolant spiritual entity exposed to human emotions, which is something that I don't think should have happened. Anders' error occured when he allowed Justice to share his body.

By the climax, he's aware of what he's doing, he knows it's terrible (in random party banter with Isabella about justice, Isabella asks, "Suppose you free the Circle, but in doing so, it costs hundreds of lives... Do those hundreds of lives not deserve justice?", Anders responds with a simple, "Yes.") but he also doesn't seem to be able to stop himself.

I'm interested to see where the Anders' storyline goes and hope that DA2 isn't the end of it, despite that many people have killed him after the Chantry fiasco.

[Darkrider296]

I'm one of those weird people who think Anders was justified. Every time I went in the Chantry I didn't get any sense of them "helping people". I saw Mothers making rude jokes and gossiping. I saw a woman who just wanted to sweep zealots under the rug. Now I went to the Gallows. The stuff I saw and heard there is repulsive on so many levels. Yet the Chantry just prays and desires the status quo. It even looked like Meredith was going to destroy the circle anyways judging from the conversation she was having before Anders appeared. So you know what Anders is a freedom fighter in my eyes. A undoubtedly flawed one but what person isn't? I still see him as the true hero in the game. The other characters failed to see that by upholding the status quo more tension and harm is coming from that than anything else. There needs to be resolution between Templar and Mage conflict whatever the outcome. No more false peace. I guess my position comes from how I view the Chantry as an inherently evil organization. I tried to see Anders as an evil dude but the more I listened to his argument the more solid it appeared. Hes taking on the institution that has stilted any real progressive progress in Thedas. Now don't get me wrong I abhor Tevinter just as much. Same with the Qunari.I hate all tyrnaticall institutions. I think Anders makes the most sense when you see him before the final battle. You don't see any fanaticism just an honest sincerity for a better world. Same when you fight him. "All I wanted was a home not a hiding place or cell". Such powerful words. Call me morally weak if you want but I see more good than evil in the man.

Modifié par Darkrider296, 23 mars 2012 - 03:35 .

[Darkrider296]

People often like to view his ideas as "fantasy" which saddens me. I can see a world where Mages can be properly educated but still positively contribute to society. I can imagine an all inclusive government for all races with a secular police force made up of people of all backgrounds that fights evil where ever it may be. I actually really respect the Dalish they confront wayward Mages collectively. They understand the risk and respect the rights of their mages because they have the courage to take group responsibly if worse comes to worse.

[Darkrider296]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

He became kind of Spartacus for mages. People like that move history, and can't be absolutely true devided in good or evil camps.

Still, I always thought that a high intelligence and mental concentration should actually lead circle-slaves to inventing of more peaceful and smart solution. If you are smart, you clearely must understand slow, thoughtful way of breaking the opression, like First Enchanter Irving did.

People like Irving are part of the problem. They sit back and allow abuses because they are ruled by fear. No more wishy washy maker or tranqulaity crap. Their needs to be a balanced solution that allows freedom but also regulates mage activity to a certain extent. People like Irving are what the Templars want. Bootlickers who follow the status quo and don't ask for positive change. No more tranquils, and no more self hating Mages. Have Mage pride backbone but also recongize its dangers to. Also don't let your power delude you. You have limitations like any mortal. I'm just asking for a tolerant and well regulated world where mages can live like people. I feel like I should be writing Anders manifesto

[Darkrider296]

InvaderErl wrote...

There was absolutely no need to blow that Chantry up murdering innocent people just so that there would be no compromise. Anders certainly sees himself as a martyr but he's a terrorist plain and simple. Anders is the kind of person that keeps the cycle of violence going, he's just Meredith's counterpart.

Your letting your fear of violence cloud the fact that evil needs to be confronted sometimes. The Chnatry is inherantly evil be it ntial or otherwise. There needs to be a resolution (global war) to this conflict or else the tension and false peace will continue.

[Davillo]

Mages should be able to live among people, they should be trained in circles to control magic but a circel should be just a place where they can train and master their talents. Every mages hould have to attend circle for a couple years. They should be able to visit family too. Templars should everywhere and be only used to chase down maleficars and mages who are criminals.

I also feel that Anders actions are justified, even though I think he should have instead storm the gallows and execute Meridith, and than magically destroy the gallows. For me that would of been better, of course the gallows would be blown up after the mages are freed. Now that I got this idea. A templar supporter would encounter ANders destroying the chantry a mage supporter would be storming the gallows to destroy them.

[Lazy Jer]

Darkrider296 wrote...

The Chnatry is inherantly evil be it ntial or otherwise. There needs to be a resolution (global war) to this conflict or else the tension and false peace will continue.

The Chantry is what now?  Inherently evil?  Where do you get the evidence for that statement? 

[Adanu]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Darkrider296 wrote...

The Chnatry is inherantly evil be it ntial or otherwise. There needs to be a resolution (global war) to this conflict or else the tension and false peace will continue.

The Chantry is what now?  Inherently evil?  Where do you get the evidence for that statement? 

Take a good, long look at their premise and what they've done, and you can see the flaws.

As it is, ANders is totally justified with what he does. The illusion of peace mighth ave lasted a bit longer possibly... but the tension between mages and templars... theres only so much kicking a dog can take before he bites back.

Idealists who think the chantry was not a valid 'military' target always make me laugh too.

[Darkrider296]

Thank you Adanu its always a pleasure to run across reasonable people such as yourself on these forums. People we have to understand that Thedas is festering !$%# hole in need of massive social change. Their needs to be tolerance for people of all races and backgrounds so that thuggish bullies like the Templars don't have respect and authority.

[Darkrider296]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Darkrider296 wrote...

The Chnatry is inherantly evil be it ntial or otherwise. There needs to be a resolution (global war) to this conflict or else the tension and false peace will continue.

The Chantry is what now?  Inherently evil?  Where do you get the evidence for that statement? 

What the Chantry did the Eleves is beyond evil and wrong

[Lazy Jer]

Darkrider296 wrote...

What the Chantry did the Eleves is beyond evil and wrong

What the Chantry did for the elves wasn't.  Lest we forget that Andraste was partially responsible for the elves being free from Tevinter.  What's more the Chantry offered shelter to the victims of the undead attack at Redcliffe castle and helped those who were turned away from their farms in Lothering.

[Lazy Jer]

Adanu wrote...

Take a good, long look at their premise and what they've done, and you can see the flaws.

As it is, ANders is totally justified with what he does. The illusion of peace mighth ave lasted a bit longer possibly... but the tension between mages and templars... theres only so much kicking a dog can take before he bites back.

Idealists who think the chantry was not a valid 'military' target always make me laugh too.

I'm not going to argue justification because...well I'm arguing that somewhere else already.  But what's been happening at the Circle doesn't prove inherent evil.  As I've said before the Chantry has helped people.  For something to be inherently evil it has to be evil at it's core.  The very idea of it needs to be evil.  "

Inherently evil = "I'm going to destroy Ferelden and murder all of it's citizens."

The chantry isn't inherently evil

[ReshyShira]

I just try to pretend what happened in DA2 was non-canon because I felt the game wasn't really a dragon age game but a mass effect game trying to be a dragon age game.

[Darkrider296]

Its evil at its core that it requires all people to be followers of that said religion. Ok it helped the Eleves at first. Guess what though, they stabbed those same Evleves in the back years later.The Eleves understandably expelled the first Priests coming to convert them. So the Chantry then decides to declare war on them and their culture. Nice institution eh?

[Lazy Jer]

Darkrider296 wrote...

Its evil at its core that it requires all people to be followers of that said religion. Ok it helped the Eleves at first. Guess what though, they stabbed those same Evleves in the back years later.The Eleves understandably expelled the first Priests coming to convert them. So the Chantry then decides to declare war on them and their culture. Nice institution eh?

Centurys, Darkrider, not just years.  And it wasn't "The Chantry" it was Orais.  To say that the Chantry stabbed the elves in the back is a gross oversimplification of the issue.  Following the second blight there was increased tension between the Dales and Orlais.  As the Dales grew there were more border clashes between them and Orlais.  Eventually it escalated into a full-scale war between the two nations.

The Chantry did declare an exalted march on the dales but only after the war had been raging for years.  It wasn't this case of "Hey we got ours now let's double cross the Dalish."  You'd like to believe it was.  The Chantry is a religion.  It is a set of ideas.  I have read some of the verses in the chant of light and I'm comfortable saying that those ideas themselves are not evil.

Evil lies in people.  Both the people who use the Chant of Light as an excuse to murder, and those who claim that it's okay to murder someone because they believe in the chant of light.

[Always Alice]

He was a crazed abomination, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a point. The way he went about illustrating this point leaves a lot to be desired, however.

Darkrider296 wrote...

Its evil at its core that it requires all people to be followers of that said religion. Ok it helped the Eleves at first. Guess what though, they stabbed those same Evleves in the back years later.The Eleves understandably expelled the first Priests coming to convert them. So the Chantry then decides to declare war on them and their culture. Nice institution eh?

Wait, what? You can be a follower of a religion and disagree with how some leaders interpret certain doctrines. It happens all the time IRL. Hawke was clearly raised in an Andrastian household (though it's up to you if you want your Hawke to believe in the religion or not), yet we know they deviated from traditional doctrine interpretation. Nowhere in the Chant does it say "mages need to be locked up." It explicitly states that magic is a gift, actually.

And discussing the Exalted Marches as a reason to hate the modern-day Chantry seems like a moot point. It was something horrible to be sure, but since it happened HUNDREDS of years ago it's not like the current leaders had any say in the decision. Most institutions and nations have done something terrible in the past, but there comes a point where you have to focus on the current climate and move forward. It would be like blaming modern-day priests for the Crusades or modern-day Americans for the genocide of the Native Americans.

[Darkrider296]

The current Chantry supports the alienages and forces the Elfs to abandon their old culture to be obedient followers of Andraste. Its because of the Chantry that Elfs live in those disgusting Alienages in the first place. So yeah I have a massive bone to pick with the Chantry.

[Always Alice]

Darkrider296 wrote...

The current Chantry supports the alienages and forces the Elfs to abandon their old culture to be obedient followers of Andraste. Its because of the Chantry that Elfs live in those disgusting Alienages in the first place. 

  While the Chantry played a role in why the elves live in alienages, the nobility currently are the only ones with the power over them. Elves don't obey the Chantry; they obey whatever noble or monarch is in charge. The Chantry has no real influence in the alienages; it's been a while since I played the City Elf origin, but I distinctly recall a Mother trying to stop the nobles to no avail. Like I said before, at some point you have to stop looking at the past and see what can be done about the current situation.

Modifié par Always Alice, 25 mars 2012 - 04:09 .