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Bioware reaping what a decade of unchallenging games has sown?


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#26
Darpaek

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Skellimancer wrote...

You know Baldur's Gate 1 is not hard at all when you know where all the best items are and where to go and more importantly where not to go.


Lies!

Your dad dies.  You run off into the woods.  Your little sister shows up.  The two of you are attacked by 4 wolves on the way back to the road.  You make it to the road.  You decide to go check out dad's corpse.  You're attacked by 6 goblins (with bows!) on the way.  You come back to the road after checking the corpse.  You walk to the fork in the road.  There's an ogre.

And that's JUST the first 15 minutes of BG1.  Free choice was an illusion in BG.  If you didn't go to the Friendly Arm, you were going to die.  LOL

#27
Periodiko

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Haexpane wrote...

Well first of all, I don't agree that DAO Is "too hard" at all. But I also don't agree about this "easy games" myth out there.

Gran Turismo S license.. easy?
Demon's Souls - Easy?
Ninja Gaiden - Easy?
God of War - Easy?
Valkyrie Chronicles - Easy?

Not every game in the world is WoW w/ XP bonus. Don't support urban myths "games from the last decade are easy" just to troll.


Most of those games aren't even RPG's, and none of them are bioware games so what does this have to do with the topic?

It's basically true, no Bioware games since Baldur's Gate have been even remotely as difficult as Baldur's Gate, which has led to the bizarre expectation (literally stated by some people in this forum) that RPG's shouldn't provide a challenge and should only be "about the story". I've seen people using definitions of "RPG" here under which about 10-20 years of RPG's wouldn't qualify.

Modifié par Periodiko, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:08 .


#28
Periodiko

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Darpaek wrote...

And that's JUST the first 15 minutes of BG1.  Free choice was an illusion in BG.  If you didn't go to the Friendly Arm, you were going to die.  LOL


Alternately, if you went to the Friendly Arm Inn you were going to die because a mage is going to one-shot you with Magic Missile. And this fight is nearly unavoidable, happens in the first half-hour of the game, and before you can recruit any reasonable number of companions or even get stable access to a store to buy equipment.

#29
DaLabbes

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Darpaek wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You know Baldur's Gate 1 is not hard at all when you know where all the best items are and where to go and more importantly where not to go.


Lies!

Your dad dies.  You run off into the woods.  Your little sister shows up.  The two of you are attacked by 4 wolves on the way back to the road.  You make it to the road.  You decide to go check out dad's corpse.  You're attacked by 6 goblins (with bows!) on the way.  You come back to the road after checking the corpse.  You walk to the fork in the road.  There's an ogre.

And that's JUST the first 15 minutes of BG1.  Free choice was an illusion in BG.  If you didn't go to the Friendly Arm, you were going to die.  LOL


I can easily agree with that. I played BG2 several times before finally playing BG1, and even after getting the mage and the dwarf (forgot their names), I got my ass handed as soon as I strayed only a little from the main road.

#30
Darpaek

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Periodiko wrote...

Alternately, if you went to the Friendly Arm Inn you were going to die because a mage is going to one-shot you with Magic Missile. And this fight is nearly unavoidable, happens in the first half-hour of the game, and before you can recruit any reasonable number of companions or even get stable access to a store to buy equipment.



YUP!  Good times!!!

That's why you pick up Xzar and Monty on the way and hide around the corner when you send them in first.  The Friendly Arm has a conveniently located temple for all of your magic missile induced funerals.  =D

#31
Pareus65

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I've found as long as you treat it like a mmo and actually concentrate on killing mobs rather than constantly trying to "manage" a whole mass of em its pretty easy no matter what you do, even on nightmare

#32
Wolff Laarcen

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Pareus65 wrote...

I've found as long as you treat it like a mmo and actually concentrate on killing mobs rather than constantly trying to "manage" a whole mass of em its pretty easy no matter what you do, even on nightmare

This.

Focus fire is a pretty powerful tool, backed with good healing and creative use of the tactics feature.

#33
Pocketgb

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I think the last time I was challenged by a Bioware game was the first few levels in Mass Effect on Insanity. I think that's about it, sadly.



DA:O was a bit rough to get into that's for sure, but once you get a decent party config going - and after switching to DW from 2H - things were dropping insanely quick.

#34
Skellimancer

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Darpaek wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You know Baldur's Gate 1 is not hard at all when you know where all the best items are and where to go and more importantly where not to go.


Lies!

Your dad dies.  You run off into the woods.  Your little sister shows up.  The two of you are attacked by 4 wolves on the way back to the road.  You make it to the road.  You decide to go check out dad's corpse.  You're attacked by 6 goblins (with bows!) on the way.  You come back to the road after checking the corpse.  You walk to the fork in the road.  There's an ogre.

And that's JUST the first 15 minutes of BG1.  Free choice was an illusion in BG.  If you didn't go to the Friendly Arm, you were going to die.  LOL


As soon as you are at Candlekeep Coastway head south twice where you will find a talking chicken. Take it north to the building to find his master who will reverse what is done using a skull form mobs in same zone, instant 2k xp.

Thats just one of the many things that makes the game so much easier than people think.

#35
Darpaek

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You still gotta make it past the Ogre! =D

#36
Inhuman one

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heh, many find nightmare difficulty too easy, and I am finding easy difficulty too hard.



I die all the time, as do my partymembers. Some battles took me four times before I got past it. Good thing I have Wynne with me who can revive party members, otherwise it would have been a lot more difficult even.



I dont play RPG's for the challenge however, I play them for the story. If its remotely turn based I stop caring about a challenge. Few games can really thrive me to really put effort into it and seek out challenges though. Sure dragon age has an alright combat system, but its no competition to the combat seen in Assasin's Creed or other more action oriented games with swords and such.



And thats why I really dont care about a challenge in RPG's.

#37
Skellimancer

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Darpaek wrote...

You still gotta make it past the Ogre! =D


The ogre is east of Candlekeep Coastway and can be easily avoided. if you have archers (and you should) just kite it to death.

#38
Periodiko

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Skellimancer wrote...

As soon as you are at Candlekeep Coastway head south twice where you will find a talking chicken. Take it north to the building to find his master who will reverse what is done using a skull form mobs in same zone, instant 2k xp.

Thats just one of the many things that makes the game so much easier than people think.


Is it really relevant that if you have psychic knowledge of where to go and what to do, the game becomes easier? Most people only play 40+ hour games once, and don't have total recall of quest locations for magic chickens and the wizards who love them.

Last I remember, Gorion tells you to go to the Friendly Arm Inn before he dies, not gamebanshee.com.

Inhuman one wrote...

Sure dragon age has an alright
combat system, but its no competition to the combat seen in Assasin's
Creed or other more action oriented games with swords and such.


Indeed, how can "arrange your party of 4-6 characters and use the dozens of abilities, potions, and equipment against dozens of different enemies all with unique abilities" compare to the incredible sophistication of Assassin's "mash the counter button over and over" Creed.

Modifié par Periodiko, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:44 .


#39
Ystalwyn

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Sidney wrote...

Challenging is obviously relative but there are clearly legitimate problems people have - and almost all of them are combat related.

(snip)

3. The game wants to be "tactical" and yet it abuses almost all known forms of tactics:
- You can't control choke points as foes run through your choke point.

(snip)


Very much this. I'm loving the game so far (all aspects--story and a play style that comes closest to the BG2 style I still enjoy) save for the choke point thing. I'd love to be able to hold a doorway or a bridge with one or two fighters while the mage and archer stand behind them. Even if it's possible for enemies to force their way past, it'd be more fun if it took some sort of skill to do so rather than just slipping by like a kid through a grocery store checkout line.

#40
addiction21

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SheffSteel wrote...

If whining is a problem, whining about whining isn't likely to fix it.

Alternatively, not every post on this forum is actually whining.



Too true but even the good ones invariably get the same three fools ranting about how their opnions are fact and berating anyone who thinks any differently then they do.

#41
The Hausmet

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I thought all the whining was just all the wow players...

#42
Skellimancer

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Periodiko wrote...

Is it really relevant that if you have psychic knowledge of where to go and what to do, the game becomes easier? Most people only play 40+ hour games once, and don't have total recall of quest locations for magic chickens and the wizards who love them.

Last I remember, Gorion tells you to go to the Friendly Arm Inn before he dies, not gamebanshee.com.


My point was the only reason Baldur's Gate was challenging is because it was filled with "beginners traps".

Sorry for having a good memory. :lol:

#43
hydroxyde

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 Let's hope Bio sticks to its guns and helps encourage a new back-to-challenge generation of player expectation.

Could they at least make the easy mode easy for the Not Hardcore player then?
No, I'm not someone who has played every easy BioWare game and thoguht this would be easy, but if the game is handing me my ass on easy mode in The Final Battle, the difficulty is wrong.
It wasn't this difficult up to this point, my guys shouldn't suddenly start dying all over the place.

Replies of "You're bad" will be met with "Well, yes. That's why I'm on easy."

meh, back to trying to get into Fort Drakon.

Modifié par hydroxyde, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:13 .


#44
schnaucl

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I'm with you, Inhuman one. I don't play RPGs for the combat, I do it for the story/characterization.



I don't want the battles to be a cakewalk, but I don't want to have to fight every battle repeatedly, either. That's not fun for me, that's frustrating. I don't think that makes me a bad person/loser/whiny player, it just means that my focus is on something else. The combat is what you have to do to get to the story. I'm sure for other people, the story is what you have to do to get to the combat.



I like my combat just challenging enough to be interesting.



I will say I was doing absolutely terribly at this game when I first bought it and couldn't figure out why until a friend of mine watched me play and explained the concept of tactics. After that it was much easier. But at first I didn't know enough to know what I was getting wrong. It probably helps if you've played an MMO or Balder's Gate, but I hadn't.








#45
TuringPoint

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I agree with the OP. This game has the most fun, intricate, and interesting combat of any Bioware game I've yet played, which is all of them. They really outdid themselves, and it's unfortunate so many whine about it being too easy or too hard. I would say it's the most fun game combat I've played, but I don't think that makes sense - it's unlike anything else, so why compare it as such?

The combat is interesting, unlike the more recent games Bioware has come out with, and unlike most games out there.

Modifié par Alocormin, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:39 .


#46
Raxxman

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Here's the issue.



The AI is bad, not just bad but terribad, It's honestly some of the most basic scripted toss I've ever seen, and I doubt it's actually better than BG1s AI. It has no tactical awareness, sense of preservation or ability to adapt to less than favorable circumstances.



For example, the AI will fireball your dragonbone fire pot chugged 2hander and do almost exactly 0 damage and no knockdown to you, but devestating it's allies, however the second it has the cooldown removed it will sling another fireball.



Archers have a very crude manner of attempting to stay at range, if you charge them they'll run a bit, but if you go stand round a corner they'll b-line straight towards you effectively running into melee range and awaiting death.



These are but a couple of examples of severe deficiency in the tactical aspect of the game. Essentially on equal footing, with half a brain you will never loose to the AI, it's too predictable and basic. Here in we come to the conundrum for Bioware. essentially in order to create a challenge the game has to have pre-positioned ambushes, with most of the brain work done without the game trying anything. This falls downs heavily however, if you don't enter the ambush the way the designer expects you too. Bioware attempt to solve this issue 2 ways, firstly they position your characters for you, removing any chance to counter the ambush regardless of how cliche it actually is, putting you in areas where scattshots will hit your entire party for high damage, melee surround you and ranged is in a good position above you out of easy access for counter melee (you're also often surrounded by traps that have no effect on the enemy). The other thing that happens is they do nothing, which makes supposedly difficult encounters a walk in the park as you sit in a defendable position shooting targets at range watching them come at you piecemeal as if you're playing an MMO.



This puts you in a difficult position as a player as you're forced to 'dumb down' your own brain and play into their traps. however this limits your combat options and dumbs down the game significantly, no longer can you use scenery to your advantage so the game essentially distills down to a DPS race, whoever can do the most damage fastest wins. This type of encounter is alright for the casual player as the tactic is essentially how they play, no offense meant.



The second technique is to just mob you with masses of troops, strength in numbers (or do both, put you in a dodgy situation and mob you). Here's the point whereby the casual player starts to suffer. A DPS race doesn't cut it by pure weight of arms, you can get wiped quickly and it seems daunting.



The issue is, even the mob warfare suffers at the hands of even a semi-competent RTS player, mobs can be walked into AoE disables interrupts which they eagerly and willingly charge idiotically into, the mob can be whittled down into nothingness as once in the killing field it has little ambition to preserve its life.



So to summaries, Bioware have essentially reaped what they've sown, but not how you think they are. Bioware are suffering from not advancing their combat AI. They've not made a hard game for those strategically minded but for those who enjoy RPGs but not RTSs they've made it at times nut twistingly difficult by essentially lazy game design. This isn't even bringing in crippling class balance issues, to which a RTS style player will use his companions strategically, while a RPG stylised player will choose his companions based on another set of criteria.





TL:DR = The AI or lack of it combined with class imbalance is the issue with the game difficulty, but the game is not challenging for anyone who's played RTSs.

#47
Wolff Laarcen

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Raxxman wrote...
TL:DR = The AI or lack of it combined with class imbalance is the issue with the game difficulty, but the game is not challenging for anyone who's played RTSs.

informative post and great breakdown.   I had actually forgotten about RTS games - I've been playing them for so freaking long that it didn't occur to me they had any bearing here at all.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:26 .


#48
lazorexplosion

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Best party based RPG combat ever. Some people will just cry about everything, and they tend to be unfortunately and obnoxiously vocal and prone to wild exaggeration about their pet topics for whining.

#49
Periodiko

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I mostly agree, but in fairness, it isn't an RTS, it's an RPG. It's pretty reasonable for the game designers to limit the degree to which their AI challenges the player strategically, since that isn't the purpose of the game (or the AI).

Given the tools available to the player, I think it's unreasonable to expect (for example) for monsters to not walk into traps, because giving the AI the ability to evaluate traps is a huge and complicated thing. The "ambush" model you suggested is much stronger because it essentially accepts it's own limitations and attempts to challenge the player asymmetrically - "okay, you beat some goblins straight up, now try it with a fireball trap in your midst, now try it with a bunch of archers on a cliff."

I really think that's a perfectly sustainable model and easier to do right than develop super-competent AI (and maybe even more realistic, just how smart do you expect a pack of subhuman goblin creatures, walking corpses, or animal-monsters to be?). For the strategy game player, I think the solution is just to propose harder strategic puzzles, and remove some of the really stupid exploits like kiting or crowd control abuse.

The first thing I want to do with the toolset is make a really challenging Icewind Dale style dungeon crawl module that also deals with some of the more unbalanced player tactics.

Modifié par Periodiko, 18 novembre 2009 - 01:05 .


#50
ITSSEXYTIME

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Basically the difficulty comes down to this: The game is hard until you start learning some tactics, specifically crowd control but also stun abilities and spell combos.



Overall, DA:O has a great tactical combat system. For people who don't use good tactics it's very challenging and for people who do use good tactics it's fairly easy. If it was any other way it'd be horribly difficult or incredibly easy.



You can argue the AI is a bit basic, but in case you didn't know the AI in pretty much every game is exploitable and basic.



Also, all the elitist crap is annoying. Great, the game is easy for you! Congratulations. If you want it to be harder go download some mod that makes a bunch of stupid changes like removing health poultices.