50 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

No but the circle is responsible for a lot more.
Leandra hawk was murdered by an Maleficarum who worked with the first enchanter
Thrask a templar was murdered by a Maleficarum who had inflitrated the circle
Those templar recruits murdered by that cabal of circle mages who sought to turn some templars into abominations.
The templars from starkhaven whom were killed by their own mages
Thats just off the top of my head without going to the wiki/journal if i did there is more i'm sure.

Ser Thrask is in danger from fellow templar Ser Kerras (who rapes Alim if he's not killed), there's the templar who discusses raping the female mage when we help Anders try to reach the Gallows from the underground tunnel, and there's the templars who try to murder the nobles because they want to see Knight-Commander Meredith removed from her position. Besides Karl begging to be killed so he wouldn't be a "templar puppet" anymore, there's also the tranquil mage telling her beloved that she doesn't remember him and that she gets her orders from Knight-Captain Cullen (she's in the Gallows), so I don't think the issue is as one-sided as you seem to imply it is. Both sides have their faults.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I only sided with the mages to keep Anders happy because he was my healer and love interest. Really though I had no reason otherwise to side with them. Aside from Bethany and a few others the whole game made it pretty clear that the mages were there to make your life a living hell. You couldn't even trust those in your own party. Anders used your kindness from the start and when you questioned his judgment he emotionally blackmails you. Merrill is too naive to use the power she possesses. Really, I should have welcomed the annulment with open arms.

[Pileyourbodies]

Sigh you were implying that cullen was having a creepy sexual thing. Theres no evidence of this other than that shes his attache. Yes theres a few bad apples but the Templars have a lot more and a lot worse.

[darkmage84]

I can't side with the Templars. Push people into a corner, and they'll push back however they can. And if the people you push into a corner can shoot lightning out of their finger tips and fireballs out of their ***, then you should've picked someone else to push. If you look at our own history, we onced practiced slavery and there were times where the slaves pushed back. Of course it was never as successfull as in dragon age (lack of magic ), but it would be considered inhumane to suggest killing all the slaves in said town, because a large number revolted.

Not trying to turn this into a conversation about race, but realistically you can only push people so far and if you believe that circle was too far gone to be saved, you have to ask why? Is it because of their leaders? Possibly, we do find out he's a blood mage, but I believe he was a symptom of the problem, which is actually Meredith, who suprisingly gets a pass for having that idol. If a mage was caught with it, they would call him a malificarum for having such an object and imo that equals the first enchanter being a blood mage.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sigh you were implying that cullen was having a creepy sexual thing. Theres no evidence of this other than that shes his attache. Yes theres a few bad apples but the Templars have a lot more and a lot worse.

No, I'm addressing that the tranquil have no agency of their own. This is why Anders' friend Karl says he would rather die than be a "templar puppet."

[Pileyourbodies]

So if this happened in tevinter you'd side with the templars to put down the mages?

That was to the guy above you lobsel.

The way you put it makes it seem like you're implying. Guess i'm reading too much into it but still looks that way.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 18 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Sarkus]

The codex stuff about the secret of Kirkwall seems to imply that the city has a blood magic problem based on the existence of significant Tevinter artifacts and texts in the hidden caverns beneath the city. While Meredith has her problems (and her acquisition of the idol makes her much worse), it's hard to support the mages with all the blood mage stuff happening. Even Merril's personal story outcome makes it sound like blood magic has no good end. My Hawke didn't want to kill the innocent mages, but since the game doesn't directly give you a middle option (though I'd like to think that with Meredith gone and my Hawke and Cullen in charge, the Templars would have been more moderate) but in the end it seems like the Templars are the best choice. At least some mages can be saved if you make that choice along the way by standing up to Meredith in that cutscene.

Modifié par Sarkus, 18 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[darkmage84]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

So if this happened in tevinter you'd side with the templars to put down the mages?

That was to the guy above you lobsel.

The way you put it makes it seem like you're implying. Guess i'm reading too much into it but still looks that way.

If the Elves/Slaves rebelled, yes, my character (not me, I suck with a sword and don't know magic ), would defend the Elves/Slaves.  I would not however side with Templars, if they did a forced march, because they aren't oppressed.  Not sure if Tevinter even has Templars.

Now would I kill every mage in Tevinter, no.  Tyrants and other mad men usually deal in absolutes, but I would kill any who stood against me. 

[Pileyourbodies]

Dealing with abosultes when you have laws just means you're following Zero tolerance. doesn't make you a madman or a tyrant. There are ways to fight the law, even in Thedas.

[darkmage84]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Dealing with abosultes when you have laws just means you're following Zero tolerance. doesn't make you a madman or a tyrant. There are ways to fight the law, even in Thedas.

If killing innocents is part of said law, just because they bear some association with the guilty, then yes it does.  Zero Tolerance is fine if you are being held accountable for your actions, but zero tolerance for one persone leads to death for all, shows that you are mad.

Even the Knight-Commander in Ferelden was very hesitent to invoke the right of anulment, when the tower was over run by abominations.

Can you immagine at age 7 you were taken from your parents because you were different.  And locked away in a prison for your entire life.  At what point do you say screw this I'm fighting back?  And keep in mind, I'm reffering only to Kirkwall, since they seemed to have more blood mages than normal.  And their Circle in an actual Prison.  Even before the final quest, the first enchanter says all the mages are confined to their cells, how long could you live like that?

Modifié par darkmage84, 18 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[Raiil]

I sided with the mages partially because my Hawke's a mage, partially because she's mentally not all there and is clinging to Anders, and because the templars aren't exactly shining paragons of virtue, either.


I hate Orsino, and I derive a certain satisfaction in knowing that the bastard died fat, smelly, and with his blood on my hands. What Orsino does is of no concern to my Hawke (aside from him dying ASAP) because in the same way Meredith is not all templars, Orsino is not all mages. He was one man pushed to the edge (there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he was engaged in Blood Magic beforehand personally, although he's still a douche canoe for helping that whacko out) and taking desperate measures to ensure that the mages that are trying to get out, get out. From my perspective, if one mage is not a blood mage, then mages are not blood mages- or rather, elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. Orsino is one mage. The Kirkwall mages are a handful of mages. There's a lot more out there.

[Pileyourbodies]

But orsino wasn't the only blood mage at least half the mages in the game are blood mages or abominations! This ratio applies even to your companions Merril is a blood mage and anders is an Abomination!

[Raiil]

Anders is a unique abomination, and I hate Merril, so she can die with the rest of them.


Again, elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. The assumption that one is doing something wicked simply because they have the ability to do so is absurd.

[Rabies]

I sided with the Mages. I had to protect my sister. I didn't know that I could spare her from the Rite of Annulment, but yeah....wish I'd known that. Anders definitely went too far. When he did that terrorist act against the chantry he completely nullified all his arguments. I remember thinking to myself "you idiot" as soon as he blew up the Grand Cleric.

There really was no easy choice here though. The Templars and the Mages were both at fault. Meredith had a corrupt regime, full of underlings who were doing very questionable things to the Circle. It was a vicious cycle. The Templars would see abuse of magic and then squeeze down on the mages. The Mages would feel oppressed and thus turn to abusing their magic in an attempt to break free from that oppression. In turn, the use of forbidden magic caused Meredith to crack down harder.

There was no diffusing this powder keg from going off.

[Pileyourbodies]

Valentia X wrote...

Anders is a unique abomination, and I hate Merril, so she can die with the rest of them.


Again, elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. The assumption that one is doing something wicked simply because they have the ability to do so is absurd.

He may be unique but he is still an abomination. Wynne was also an abomination and if i was a templar...

Also not all elephants are grey, White elephants.

[Raiil]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Anders is a unique abomination, and I hate Merril, so she can die with the rest of them.


Again, elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. The assumption that one is doing something wicked simply because they have the ability to do so is absurd.

He may be unique but he is still an abomination. Wynne was also an abomination and if i was a templar...

Also not all elephants are grey, White elephants.

Yes, I'm aware there are white elephants. I'm making a general statement, not an exact zoological/biological inquiry. Would this be better? Only women can have babies, not all women will have babies. 

Wynne is not considered an abomination except by extremists. She harbours a friendly spirit. The mages would have cut her down where she stood, not hold her in some respect if she was, in fact, one.

[darkmage84]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But orsino wasn't the only blood mage at least half the mages in the game are blood mages or abominations! This ratio applies even to your companions Merril is a blood mage and anders is an Abomination!

So there must be something in the water in Kirkwall to make them all turn to blood magic, right?  I think everyone is responsible for their own decisions and if you have to kill half the mages for using blood magic and consorting with demons, fine, they made their choice, but you do have to aks why?  Atleast the Ferelden circle seemed like a dorm, yeah the templars watching you sucked, but it wasn't as bad as living in an actual prison, with cells.  Having your friends turned tranquil for speaking out, ect.

[Augustei]

DKJaigen wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They broke the law by being born, you mean? Considering Meredith does nothing to Anders and decides to go after the Circle instead, who had nothing to do with what Anders did, I can't support her. She wants to kill people for being mages. That's the line of thinking I can't support.

"The people will demand blood & I will give it to them" - Meredith
She wants to kill people to maintain order in the rest of the city

that's not excusable.

Sacrifice the few to save the many? Makes sense to me... If this concept were so easily ignored all of thedas would be dead right now because the grey wardens wouldn't exist... The fact that they are mages is irrelevant. Why Fight to save people who will die anyway? Why fight when it will cause mass chaos and death?

Im not saying the Mages were wrong, Im not saying they are evil and deserve to die.. Im just pointing out that siding with them will cause much more trouble than its worth

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 18 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[DrGulag]

Atleast the Ferelden circle seemed like a dorm, yeah the templars watching you sucked, but it wasn't as bad as living in an actual prison, with cells. Having your friends turned tranquil for speaking out, ect.

The mages didn't share that point of of view since they rebelled over there as well and set the "world on fire". If we believe what Varric said at the end of DA2. *never trust a beardless dwarf *

[Raiil]

XxDeonxX wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They broke the law by being born, you mean? Considering Meredith does nothing to Anders and decides to go after the Circle instead, who had nothing to do with what Anders did, I can't support her. She wants to kill people for being mages. That's the line of thinking I can't support.

"The people will demand blood & I will give it to them" - Meredith
She wants to kill people to maintain order in the rest of the city

that's not excusable.

Sacrifice the few to save the many? Makes sense to me... If this concept were so easily ignored all of thedas would be dead right now because the grey wardens wouldn't exist... The fact that they are mages is irrelevant. Why Fight to save people who will die anyway? Why fight when it will cause mass chaos and death?

The Grey Wardens at least have the illusion of choice. And when they're not killing darkspawn, they can marry whomever they want, live freely, not spend a lifetime in a tower and be told how someone who, eons ago, had the same power, those people were douchebuckets, and guess who's payinfg the price now?

People tend to get a little shirty when they're being treated like they have the plague when they don't actually have it.

[Raiil]

DrGulag wrote...

Atleast the Ferelden circle seemed like a dorm, yeah the templars watching you sucked, but it wasn't as bad as living in an actual prison, with cells. Having your friends turned tranquil for speaking out, ect.

The mages didn't share that point of of view since they rebelled over there as well and set the "world on fire". If we believe what Varric said at the end of DA2. *never trust a beardless dwarf *

LOL, to be honest, I have this mental image of Greagoir and Irving sitting down over tea, discussing events, decided to hell with it, and then told the mages and templars they were free. No one left the tower, they just finally gave people private bedrooms and the templars and mages who had been sneaking around together finally got open about it.


IDK, I just don't see the Ferelden overthrow being bloody like Kirkwalls.

[Pileyourbodies]

No the wardens lack choice. If a warden comes up and says he wants you for the grey wardens you become one or you die with their rite of conscription.

[darkmage84]

DrGulag wrote...

Atleast the Ferelden circle seemed like a dorm, yeah the templars watching you sucked, but it wasn't as bad as living in an actual prison, with cells. Having your friends turned tranquil for speaking out, ect.

The mages didn't share that point of of view since they rebelled over there as well and set the "world on fire". If we believe what Varric said at the end of DA2. *never trust a beardless dwarf *

 
jmo, but they wouldn't have revolted, unless the other circles were doing it.  Even Uldric's revolt had limited support from mages in the circle,  During your origin and during 'witch hunt' things seemed okay.

[darkmage84]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

No the wardens lack choice. If a warden comes up and says he wants you for the grey wardens you become one or you die with their rite of conscription.

I think your simplyfing it.  Not just any Warden can use the rite of conscription, and when they use it, the don't do so lightly

[InfinitePaths]

DrGulag wrote...

Templars every time.

The First Enchanter was partly responsible for the death of Hawke's mother and he showed his true colours at the end.

Pretty much the only responsible mage in my game was Bethany.

:wizard:Agreed,i first sided with the mages cuz meredith was crazy and i wanted freedom,but all mages in kirkwall are crazy,the first enchather,cricle mages,everywone i helped were evil and turn to blood magic(exept bethany,poor girl deaid in the deep roads),in origins cricle mages and apostates were good,morrigan,wynnne,irving they were so good chareters,blood magic and abomintaions were rare,the circle in ferelden was good,the mages had enogh freedom and all,and i liked mages in origins a lot more than DA2,i mean i saw only jowan as a blood mage there,so from now on i wil side with the templars(In DA2),shure they are a little mean and strict but they are not blood mages who turn your mother into frankenstain,and they not become fat monsters beacouse usig blood magic,so TEMPLARS all the way:D:D