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Who else killed Anders?


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#251
Rifneno

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Darc_Requiem wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

@Rifneno

If you follow the friendship path, He knowingly commits an act that will kill numerous innocent people. That's disregard for human life. Feeling "sorry" for it after the fact doesn't change that. If he truly felt bad about it, he wouldn't have done.

Now, If you were talking about Rivaled Anders, you'd have a point. He blacks out often and Justice takes over. Justice/Vengeance blew up the Chantry on the rivaled path. Friendship Anders and Justice reached consensus.

BTW Running a free clinic doesn't give him license to kill innocent people.


I notice you conveniently ignore the part about the fact he's doing it because he realizes it's a good chance to save countless times those lives in the future by ending a thousand year reign of oppression. Nice.


You know what you are right. Kirkwallers. I know several of you have lost your husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and children but Anders thinks it a good idea so it's okay <_<


Right. We shouldn't have bombed Germany or Japan in WWII either.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things have to happen in just wars. If that whole rainbows and bunnies solution works out for you guys, let us know.

#252
KendallX23

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i always kill ANders...since it seems no one will remember him anyway....except Sebastian....mages all over Thedas take Hawke as an example...not ANders....so the guy is no one important....

#253
Xilizhra

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As I said earlier in the thread, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things have to happen in just wars. If that whole rainbows and bunnies solution works out for you guys, let us know.

They live in the Mass Effect universe, mayhaps.

Of course, I'm always Paragon there because it works.

#254
EmperorSahlertz

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Xilizhra wrote...


As I said earlier in the thread, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things have to happen in just wars. If that whole rainbows and bunnies solution works out for you guys, let us know.

They live in the Mass Effect universe, mayhaps.

Of course, I'm always Paragon there because it works.

How did Arrival work out for you?Image IPB

#255
Xilizhra

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'Twasn't a Renegade decision.

#256
Darc_Requiem

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Rifneno wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

@Rifneno

If you follow the friendship path, He knowingly commits an act that will kill numerous innocent people. That's disregard for human life. Feeling "sorry" for it after the fact doesn't change that. If he truly felt bad about it, he wouldn't have done.

Now, If you were talking about Rivaled Anders, you'd have a point. He blacks out often and Justice takes over. Justice/Vengeance blew up the Chantry on the rivaled path. Friendship Anders and Justice reached consensus.

BTW Running a free clinic doesn't give him license to kill innocent people.


I notice you conveniently ignore the part about the fact he's doing it because he realizes it's a good chance to save countless times those lives in the future by ending a thousand year reign of oppression. Nice.


You know what you are right. Kirkwallers. I know several of you have lost your husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and children but Anders thinks it a good idea so it's okay <_<


Right. We shouldn't have bombed Germany or Japan in WWII either.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things have to happen in just wars. If that whole rainbows and bunnies solution works out for you guys, let us know.


The attacks on Germany and Japan happened between countries already embroiled in open war. Anders lone man act of terrorism doesn't equate in my view. You seem disagree. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

#257
Silfren

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually, Anders wanted to be killed so that the innocent lives he had just taken would be avenged. Just saying.


Which feeds into Rifneno's whole point.

He didn't blow himself up with the Chantry, and he did immediately take the blame for it, acknowledge his guilt, and offered himself for execution.  I think that goes a long way toward saying he didn't have no regard at all for innocent people.

#258
RussellKP

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Personaly, I had a problem with Anders from the start. I really did not like the changes made in him from way he was in Awakening. In Awakening, he was the fun sort that I kept in my group almost all the time. Now after the first run of DA 2. I really don’t want him in the party at all. If it were not for the healer side of him, I would not. Really hated the excuse that he became the way He was because of the melding with Justice. Another Character that I thought should have been left alone.

As for the conflict of the Templars and the Mages. I have no problem with that. It did make for a good story. But the destruction of the Chantry in my mind. Was the wrong way to go. Being a retired military person and having served in the Iraq war. It did not sit well with me. Yes it is very easy to fall in the line of thought of us verses them. Or to have feelings for the repressed. But never could I condone the killing of inocents. I recovered too many bodies in that conflict to accept a “terrorist” activity in a game to be fun. Therefore in all my games. Anders is put to death. So I feel that I have been forced to kill off one of my favorite characters.

What would have been a better story in my mind. Is as Hawk helps Anders find the materials. He learns of what Anders is up to. And then does his best to either convince Anders this is not the way to go. Or goes into the Chantry and stops the bombing. Perhaps even having to fight Anders to the death to stop it. I can see that event being as exciting and emotional as the closing missions for the story. And it would have been easier to accept Anders death.

#259
EmperorSahlertz

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Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually, Anders wanted to be killed so that the innocent lives he had just taken would be avenged. Just saying.


Which feeds into Rifneno's whole point.

He didn't blow himself up with the Chantry, and he did immediately take the blame for it, acknowledge his guilt, and offered himself for execution.  I think that goes a long way toward saying he didn't have no regard at all for innocent people.

Indeed. That doesn't justify killing innocents anyway though. That he knew what he was doing was wrong, yet did it anyway, just makes it all worse.

#260
Rifneno

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RussellKP wrote...

Personaly, I had a problem with Anders from the start. I really did not like the changes made in him from way he was in Awakening. In Awakening, he was the fun sort that I kept in my group almost all the time. Now after the first run of DA 2. I really don’t want him in the party at all. If it were not for the healer side of him, I would not. Really hated the excuse that he became the way He was because of the melding with Justice. Another Character that I thought should have been left alone.

As for the conflict of the Templars and the Mages. I have no problem with that. It did make for a good story. But the destruction of the Chantry in my mind. Was the wrong way to go. Being a retired military person and having served in the Iraq war. It did not sit well with me. Yes it is very easy to fall in the line of thought of us verses them. Or to have feelings for the repressed. But never could I condone the killing of inocents. I recovered too many bodies in that conflict to accept a “terrorist” activity in a game to be fun. Therefore in all my games. Anders is put to death. So I feel that I have been forced to kill off one of my favorite characters.

What would have been a better story in my mind. Is as Hawk helps Anders find the materials. He learns of what Anders is up to. And then does his best to either convince Anders this is not the way to go. Or goes into the Chantry and stops the bombing. Perhaps even having to fight Anders to the death to stop it. I can see that event being as exciting and emotional as the closing missions for the story. And it would have been easier to accept Anders death.


We don't get to make meaningful decisions in DA2. =/ GD framed narrative locks it so the way everything turns out is set in stone. The Deep Roads expedition HAS to go a certain way to put later events into motion, the qunari HAVE to attack so Hawke gets a title for saving the city from an invasion, Anders HAS to blow up the Chantry so Meredith can invoke the RoA... *grumble* frickin' 40 hour prologue...

Modifié par Rifneno, 21 mai 2011 - 11:42 .


#261
EmperorSahlertz

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You mean, like how you HAVE to pick a king for Orzammar, and HAVE to resolve the issues in the Ferelden Circle, and HAVE to decide the fate of the Dalish, and HAVE to cure Eamon?

The only event you mentioned which didn't involve a choice was the Deep Roads expedition.

#262
CalJones

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I take your point on Eamon - personally I'd love to have put a pillow over that bastard's face - but at least you can choose who gets to be king of Orzammar, whether the templars annul the Circle or not, whether you end the werewolf curse, side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish or vice versa, whether Loghain gets a second chance or not, and whether Alistair, Anora or both end up ruling Fereldan. Ultimately we always end up ending the Blight but at least we can choose how we get there.

In DAII, the Deep Roads always goes down the same way, the Viscount and his son always die, the Arishok always goes ballistic, Grace will always become an abomination and kill Thrask, the Chantry always goes boom and no matter whether we side with templars or mages, both Orsino and Meredith go nuts and have to be put down, and Circles and templars both end up rebelling. The choices we are allowed to make are always much, much smaller and generally relate to Hawke's companions (and even then, if you decide not to do Anders' final quest, he'll go do it himself anyway).

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but it's on pretty well defined tracks for its entirity.

#263
Xilizhra

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But never could I condone the killing of inocents. I recovered too many bodies in that conflict to accept a “terrorist” activity in a game to be fun.

I assume you sided with the mages in the end, then?

#264
EmperorSahlertz

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CalJones wrote...

I take your point on Eamon - personally I'd love to have put a pillow over that bastard's face - but at least you can choose who gets to be king of Orzammar, whether the templars annul the Circle or not, whether you end the werewolf curse, side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish or vice versa, whether Loghain gets a second chance or not, and whether Alistair, Anora or both end up ruling Fereldan. Ultimately we always end up ending the Blight but at least we can choose how we get there.

In DAII, the Deep Roads always goes down the same way, the Viscount and his son always die, the Arishok always goes ballistic, Grace will always become an abomination and kill Thrask, the Chantry always goes boom and no matter whether we side with templars or mages, both Orsino and Meredith go nuts and have to be put down, and Circles and templars both end up rebelling. The choices we are allowed to make are always much, much smaller and generally relate to Hawke's companions (and even then, if you decide not to do Anders' final quest, he'll go do it himself anyway).

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but it's on pretty well defined tracks for its entirity.

DA2 have lots of choices, not all of them have an imediate impact however. While true that some events are always bound to happen, it would be hard to tell a story otherwise, you still have many choices within those events. For instance with the Qunari, you can choose to kill the Arishok and his retinue and keep the tome, you can give the Qunari their tome, yet still duel their Arishok, or you can give them the Tome and the thief and make them leave peacefully. In that major event of the game, you have three different outcomes, which doesn't have any immediate effect on the game, yet they are still present.
People on this forum have a habit of whinning about the slightest things, but the lack of choice whiners are the worst, since they are too deadset on being whiney to realize that there were many choices, and that DA:O were equally restricting.

Furthermore, the fact taht some events are bound to happen is just a more realistic depiction of life. We aren't in control of everything around us, and sometimes **** happens, and there is nothig we can do to prevent it. Perhaps people would have been happy if it weren't always Petrice who murdered Saemus or if it weren't the Qunari who started the violence, but the fact remains, Saemus must die, and the Qunari must hold the nobles hostage for the story to evolve.
Sometimes I wonder if people whine as much about the story developments in a book as much as they do on this forum.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 mai 2011 - 01:31 .


#265
Xilizhra

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People don't read books with the expectation that they can change the story.
Though otherwise I agree with you.

#266
Silfren

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RussellKP wrote...

Personaly, I had a problem with Anders from the start. I really did not like the changes made in him from way he was in Awakening. In Awakening, he was the fun sort that I kept in my group almost all the time. Now after the first run of DA 2. I really don’t want him in the party at all. If it were not for the healer side of him, I would not. Really hated the excuse that he became the way He was because of the melding with Justice. Another Character that I thought should have been left alone.


See, I don't understand that.  I can appreciate that some people loved him in Awakening and hate him in DA2, as far as his personality goes, just as some felt the very opposite.  But it's not like they just up and wanted to change his personality and using Justice was just an excuse.

It only makes sense that his personality would undergo a drastic changed.  Anders was a reckless, selfish person more focused on himself and living in the moment.  Justice was far more serious and single-minded.  It would be bizarre if we didn't see a major shift in Anders' personality as a result of his possession.  Their merging isn't a random, lame excuse for the change in Anders, nor does he seem to have been changed just for change's sake.  It fits perfectly into his entire story.

#267
Silfren

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Rifneno wrote...

We don't get to make meaningful decisions in DA2. =/ GD framed narrative locks it so the way everything turns out is set in stone. The Deep Roads expedition HAS to go a certain way to put later events into motion, the qunari HAVE to attack so Hawke gets a title for saving the city from an invasion, Anders HAS to blow up the Chantry so Meredith can invoke the RoA... *grumble* frickin' 40 hour prologue...


Meh.  I don't think the framed narrative constricted things all that much.  The way it was told, with Varric intro-ing each section, his unfolding tale could very easily have accomodated major plot changes based on PC decision. 

I'm not nearly as upset by the railroading plot, although there are several major decisions that I think could have provided actual, plot-altering choices while still setting the end-stage up the way Bioware needed it.  Mostly because I'm perfectly happy with the scenario we've been provided that apparently will be the setting of DA3.  Of course, I'm hinging my hope on DA3 taking at least another year and not being shoved out at us in six months.

#268
Silfren

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You mean, like how you HAVE to pick a king for Orzammar, and HAVE to resolve the issues in the Ferelden Circle, and HAVE to decide the fate of the Dalish, and HAVE to cure Eamon?

The only event you mentioned which didn't involve a choice was the Deep Roads expedition.


Completely ignoring that you can choose which King Orzammar will have, choose whether to save the Circle or Annul it, choose whether to save the werewolves or the Dalish, choose whether to kill or save Connor, and even choose whether to save Redcliffe, can have a major impact on some of your companions, and evolve your character to be one that is either pragmatic, idealistic, or self-serving...even decide on who rules Ferelden at the end, and what role your Warden plays for the nation after the end of the Blight, even decide whether someone lives or dies in the slaying of the archdemon.  Of course you have to decide on AN OUTCOME for each major part of the overall quest, and of course the only solution to the final quest is the archdemon's death.  But none of that changes the fact that Origins is filled with choice points that actually do have an impact on the world.

Really, the fact that you ignore the fact that every leg of the Origins main quest line involves two or three decisions that each significantly affect the game just proves that you're not interested in actual discussion, but contradicting people just because.

#269
Silver

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I never played Awakening, so I don't know what Anders was like in that campaign, but in DA2 he was complaining a little too much... also, the spirit of Justice (in my opinion) seriously warped his view of the world, even though he was right about the mistreatment of mages through Meredith's cronies.
From the first moment he told me that he merged with some spirit, I knew he would be trouble, and I was right.
I shived him, just because he betrayed the trust I put in him to keep himself and Justice under control, he deserved it.

Also, what good did blowing up the chantry do ?
I didn't change anything for the better, and the only other circle we know of, the circle in Ferelden, wasn't that bad (at least not before Uldred went bonkers).

Modifié par silverhammer08, 21 mai 2011 - 05:39 .


#270
Hurbster

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Anders just has a habit of running away from stuff he doesn't like.

#271
Drachasor

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silverhammer08 wrote...

I never played Awakening, so I don't know what Anders was like in that campaign, but in DA2 he was complaining a little too much... also, the spirit of Justice (in my opinion) seriously warped his view of the world, even though he was right about the mistreatment of mages through Meredith's cronies.
From the first moment he told me that he merged with some spirit, I knew he would be trouble, and I was right.
I shived him, just because he betrayed the trust I put in him to keep himself and Justice under control, he deserved it.

Also, what good did blowing up the chantry do ?
I didn't change anything for the better, and the only other circle we know of, the circle in Ferelden, wasn't that bad (at least not before Uldred went bonkers).


In my experience, in Awakening Anders constantly tried to annoy the other party members as much as possible.  He also liked cats.  He was also kind of an idiot, and that didn't change.

#272
The Dubious

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Never killed Anders... I find it hard to do so.

I condone what Anders did or rather what he tried to accomplish... I do not however support the fact that there might have been/were innocence, Elthina being the exception as she was the over all target I believe and not the Chantry itself. I mean blowing up the building, yea that's big... but blowing up the grand cleric a sort of conduit to the Marker that has more impact.

First off, killing him to avenge the innocent, why? It treads along the path of vengeance all to closely and it reminds me of the banter he and Isabela exchange sometime in Act III. I found it pointless to kill him for the sake of the innocent lives taken. It does them no good, it doesn't bring them back... I mean if it did then yes, I'd be opt to kill him but that's not the case. What's done is done, he would just be another body to add to the count and it's not like Justice is really killable.

Secondly, he's a good guy generally speaking, he was a healer up until this point and afterwards he seemed willing to help (if you supported mages of course)- he would do more good alive than dead.

Thirdly, if you opt to side with Templars and kill Anders he would be considered more or less a martyr among the mages.

I can see killing out of mercy simply because Vengeance is obviously starting to really affect his better Judgment, but to me he was still coherent enough to have along and help. Bah- personally thought Hawke should have been given the option to do the deed- like steal his notes and what not, heck I would have blown the Chantry up myself (with only Elthina inside, no one else- unrealistic, but let me dream), may sound harsh, but I despised the Chantry and really didn't like Elthina.

#273
Drachasor

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Killing him makes sense because he's shown he has a really warped sense of priorities. Elthina is incompetent and lazy but she's not evil and there's no justification for killing her. You can't trust him in the future to not kill other innocent people and the game doesn't give you the option to have him locked up (which might not work given Justice). Also, it sets Justice free and hopefully free of the warping by Anders.

#274
RussellKP

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To Xilizhra: The only times I sided with the Templars was to unlock the Achivements, Mage Hunter and Viscount of Kirkwall. Otherwise I go with the mages because they are the oppressed ones and need to have fair treatment. In fact, my Mage hero of DAO, asked Alistair to free the Circle. My family history goes as far back as the Reveloution in terms of serving the cournty and protecting the people.

Silfren: I am going on the assumption that you have not played Awakening or remember what went on with the wrap-up endings for the Companions. It has said that Justice had left the body he was in and was thought to have returned to the fade. Anders stayed on as a Warden and the one visit to the Circle. Made him come back to the Wardens to stay. Also in the game when Wynne talked about a group of Mages wanting to seperate and go their own way. Anders was very against that. Justice was very much like Sebastion is like in DA2. And it was mentioned in a converstation with Justice, that he could not and would not inhabit a living body.

Now, with that in mind. I can see a story were Anders leaves and then experiences something that really changes his mind. And he becomes the kind of guy we see in DA2. What I have a real problem with is what was done to Justice to make Anders the way he was. Having Justice meld with Anders and then become Vengance. Is like having Sebastion become a Demon possesd Cleric or a Blood Mage. Justice was a very caring and careful Spirit. I can't see him take that kind of risk. Or for that matter, Anders taking the risk to become Demon possesed or an Abomination. Personaly I would have liked to see Justice return as he had been in Awakening and help the DA2 people, at the side of Anders. So in my mind the designers went and took 2 characters that I liked, and changed them in a way I don't like. As far as I am concerned. They ruined Anders for me. The only reason I keep him in the party. Is because of his Healer abilities. Otherwise I would dismiss him right away in the game.

#275
Anchor5

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RussellKP wrote...

Personaly, I had a problem with Anders from the start. I really did not like the changes made in him from way he was in Awakening. In Awakening, he was the fun sort that I kept in my group almost all the time. Now after the first run of DA 2. I really don’t want him in the party at all. If it were not for the healer side of him, I would not. Really hated the excuse that he became the way He was because of the melding with Justice. Another Character that I thought should have been left alone. 


Wouldn't it be nice if all our favourite stories happened exactly the way we wanted them to. But then I guess we wouldn't really need to see the end, since we'd already know everything that's about to happen.