299 réponses à ce sujet

[The Dubious]

Drachasor wrote...

Killing him makes sense because he's shown he has a really warped sense of priorities. Elthina is incompetent and lazy but she's not evil and there's no justification for killing her. You can't trust him in the future to not kill other innocent people and the game doesn't give you the option to have him locked up (which might not work given Justice). Also, it sets Justice free and hopefully free of the warping by Anders.

Point 1.) That is justification, she is someone of high rank and with incredible amount of power and social status whether its documented/obvious or not she has the power and her input is obviously valuable/highly regarded. There is a time and place for everything, there is time where sure its fine to sit back and watch, but something like the Templar vs. Mage conflict which apparently threw almost all of Thedas in a rebellion- that's when action would have been taken... if she had intervened fine. I would have been glad to side with her/sympathized. 

Sentries, given certain circumstances are punished severely and or given even the death penalty for incompetent work such as falling asleep on the job- harsh no? they have a duty and so does she. 

Point 2.) Killing Anders if that is the case makes sense, but would that really kill Justice/Vengeance? Consider he is a Fade-Entity and assuming he has in-fact turned demon, if not- does that somehow purify a corrupt spirit by killing the host. It's apparent Justice/Vengeance cannot return to the Fade, so would it not simply look for another host as the demon Vengeance? Of course these are just my speculations which may have already been answered somewhere which I would hope so.

I assume you can't really kill a demon in the physical realm and are simply banishing it back to the Fade, that wouldn't necessarily work for Justice/Vengeance since he's apparently trapped in the physical realm by The Baroness so perhaps killing Anders would work as Justice/Vengeance would either be forced to take a new host (which Justice/Vengeance isn't willing to stoop to do such things as demons do- assuming he's not found probable cause to do so), or simply cease to exist. 

[Foolsfolly]

I assume you can't really kill a demon in the physical realm and are simply banishing it back to the Fade, that wouldn't necessarily work for Justice/Vengeance since he's apparently trapped in the physical realm by The Baroness so perhaps killing Anders would work as Justice/Vengeance would either be forced to take a new host (which Justice/Vengeance isn't willing to stoop to do such things as demons do- assuming he's not found probable cause to do so), or simply cease to exist.

I don't know if that assumption is true or not.

During the quest 'New Path' the Keeper allows the Pride Demon to enter her body. When she's telling this to the PC and Merrill she goes on to say something like about how it needed a body to be killed and not just sent back to the Fade where it'd be stronger.

Plus there's a legit way to save Connor's life by killing the Desire Demon. If it was merely a small set-back to demons and 'time doesn't matter in the Fade' then the Desire Demon's threat to Connor would still be there.

I think Demons die.

I have no idea how they are made/born/created.

[The Dubious]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I assume you can't really kill a demon in the physical realm and are simply banishing it back to the Fade, that wouldn't necessarily work for Justice/Vengeance since he's apparently trapped in the physical realm by The Baroness so perhaps killing Anders would work as Justice/Vengeance would either be forced to take a new host (which Justice/Vengeance isn't willing to stoop to do such things as demons do- assuming he's not found probable cause to do so), or simply cease to exist.

I don't know if that assumption is true or not.

During the quest 'New Path' the Keeper allows the Pride Demon to enter her body. When she's telling this to the PC and Merrill she goes on to say something like about how it needed a body to be killed and not just sent back to the Fade where it'd be stronger.

Plus there's a legit way to save Connor's life by killing the Desire Demon. If it was merely a small set-back to demons and 'time doesn't matter in the Fade' then the Desire Demon's threat to Connor would still be there.

I think Demons die.

I have no idea how they are made/born/created.

Ah yes! I forgot about that bit with the Keeper (thank you), but I still can't help to wonder if killing a demon in the physical/mortal world actually works? I would think killing it in the mortal/physical realm would be like exorcising an evil spirit, it just banishes them. Maybe it works much differently it is a fantasy type world after all, well I'm certainly no expert on Dragon Age demons (ha-ha). 

I can see why killing the desire demon in Fade would be... lasting, I mean the Fade to demon's and spirits is like the mortal/physical realm to the mortals. 

Yea, clueless as to 'how' demons are made, unless they are simply corrupt Spirits of the Fade like Justice is to Vengeance. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Neither Anders nor Justice seem to be sure 100% exactly what would happen to him if Justice's host is killed in DA 2 or even in Awakening. Anders suggests it's possible that killing him would free Justice from his rage and allow him to return to the fade.

[Silent X]

On a related note. . . I noticed when I imported my DAO save into DA2, one of the world state conditions noted was, "Connor was saved from the demon." But I don't recall that fact being alluded to at all in DA2. Was there a reference to it that I missed? I'm kind of wondering (this is likely wishful thinking) if it's going to be relevant later on. Could Connor's exorcism offer any hope for separating Anders and Justice? As far as I can recall, if you ask Irving to bring some mages to Redcliffe to save Connor from possession, Irving has a great sense of urgency about it but seems fairly confident that Connor can be exorcised. Yet I can't think of another instance in either game of an abomination being undone. It's always: see it, kill it.

I know there was the case of Fiona in The Calling, which as I recall was solved in generally the same way--by killing the demon in the Fade. But none of the characters involved in that expedition are currently kicking around. People who witnessed Connor's possession and/or helped end it are. I'd like to think this might somehow offer a ray of hope for Anders and Justice, but it's admittedly a leap. I'm no expert on the finer points of the Fade and spirits.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it sound plausible? Or can you point out something I've overlooked that proves I'm being stupid? I do miss/forget things sometimes. . .

And yeah, the hope of separating and redeeming the two of them was a big part of why I didn't kill Anders.

[Giggles_Manically]

@Silent X:
There were cut lines posted on youtube that had Teagan and Conner in them.
They talked about what happened during the events of Redcliffe.

Got cut though.

[SilentK]

Hmmm.... If my Hawke romances Anders he stays alive. "Love you but damn you make life pretty difficult sometimes". Have no idea how their life will turn out after the end, hope that they are good. Unromanced Anders also stays alive, I just don't want to give him the opportunity to become a martyr. "You wanted this chaos, then you get to try to help making it better". There has only been one Hawke that killed Anders, and that was because she romanced Sebastian. The things the cute pixels makes me do *sigh*

It will be interesting to see what happens with vengeance if Anders is killed. I had completely forgotten about that. Thanks for bringing that up guys, something new to ponder =)

[Emperor Mars]

 Even on my most recent playthrough were I was playing as a robin hood esq chaotic good character...hell even when I played as a jackass..I could not justify letting him live.

I have actually really started to dislike the character..which wasnt the case the first time around.


If he had just blown up the chantry..I would have let him live..hell if he had killed anyone but the grand cleric..I would have likely let him live..but his reasons for blowing it up are A. Selfish and B. Stupid.

I think he says something like "I would rather die fighting.."...guess what ******, your not everyone...*cue stabbing*

Modifié par Emperor Mars, 22 mai 2011 - 03:51 .

[Rifneno]

Silent X wrote...

On a related note. . . I noticed when I imported my DAO save into DA2, one of the world state conditions noted was, "Connor was saved from the demon." But I don't recall that fact being alluded to at all in DA2. Was there a reference to it that I missed?

I saw a video on youtube (well, audio with a still picture) of some cut dialogue that someone found in the game files.  Apparently there was going to be a scene with Connor and Teagan in Kirkwall at some point.  And Connor tells every stranger he meets the darkest secrets of his possession for some reason.  Whether we'll see it in a DLC is anybody's guess.

There was also a hilarious dialogue of Cassandra chastizing Varric for exaggerating the amount of blood mages.

[Silfren]

silverhammer08 wrote...

Also, what good did blowing up the chantry do ?
I didn't change anything for the better, and the only other circle we know of, the circle in Ferelden, wasn't that bad (at least not before Uldred went bonkers).

We don't know anything for certain yet, but we DO know that all the Circles throughout Thedas rose up in open rebellion.  I do think that was a good thing, and it certainly can change things for the better.

The Circle of Ferelden not being as egregiously bad as the one in Kirkwall doesn't equate to it being a good setup.

[Silfren]

Drachasor wrote...

Killing him makes sense because he's shown he has a really warped sense of priorities. Elthina is incompetent and lazy but she's not evil and there's no justification for killing her. You can't trust him in the future to not kill other innocent people and the game doesn't give you the option to have him locked up (which might not work given Justice). Also, it sets Justice free and hopefully free of the warping by Anders.

Do people not remember that Justice possessed a corpse in Awakening because he was trapped in it, outside of the Fade?

This notion that killing Anders would set Justice free...there's no basis for it.  The established info we do have indicates that Justice would simply be trapped in Anders corpse.  I don't call that free.

Also, I rather think that it's Justice that warped Anders, rather than the other way around.  After all, it does seem to have been Justice's idea to merge in the first place.

[Silfren]

RussellKP wrote...

Silfren: I am going on the assumption that you have not played Awakening or remember what went on with the wrap-up endings for the Companions. It has said that Justice had left the body he was in and was thought to have returned to the fade. Anders stayed on as a Warden and the one visit to the Circle. Made him come back to the Wardens to stay. Also in the game when Wynne talked about a group of Mages wanting to seperate and go their own way. Anders was very against that. Justice was very much like Sebastion is like in DA2. And it was mentioned in a converstation with Justice, that he could not and would not inhabit a living body.

Now, with that in mind. I can see a story were Anders leaves and then experiences something that really changes his mind. And he becomes the kind of guy we see in DA2. What I have a real problem with is what was done to Justice to make Anders the way he was. Having Justice meld with Anders and then become Vengance. Is like having Sebastion become a Demon possesd Cleric or a Blood Mage. Justice was a very caring and careful Spirit. I can't see him take that kind of risk. Or for that matter, Anders taking the risk to become Demon possesed or an Abomination. Personaly I would have liked to see Justice return as he had been in Awakening and help the DA2 people, at the side of Anders. So in my mind the designers went and took 2 characters that I liked, and changed them in a way I don't like. As far as I am concerned. They ruined Anders for me. The only reason I keep him in the party. Is because of his Healer abilities. Otherwise I would dismiss him right away in the game.

I have played Awakenings.  The epilogues are pretty much irrelevant for both Anders and Justice, for reasons that rather speak for themselves.  Now, as for party banter, I don't recall any such conversation with Justice that he absolutely wouldn't possess a living body.  I do recall a party banter between Justice and Nathaniel wherein Justice starts out by saying he wouldn't, but by the end of that conversation, Nathaniel has planted the idea in Justice's head and he's thinking about it.  I don't ever see Justice as caring or careful, but extremely singular minded in a way that illustrates what Isabela herself says about Justice as an idea not being able to properly exist in a world of people. 

[Silfren]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Silent X:
There were cut lines posted on youtube that had Teagan and Conner in them.
They talked about what happened during the events of Redcliffe.

Got cut though.

Cut, or blocked due to a bug?

[_Aine_]

romanced him - took off with him

romanced him - killed him

no romance - no death (didn't want a martyr)

I usually don't kill him, simply because of circumstance. Sometimes, in my RP head, I imagine I will have him dealt with after the fact. Quickly and without ceremony, so it stays off the radar. There is less satisfaction in that for him I think, and when my character wants him dead, she doesn't want to give him that satisfaction.

I do like the fugitive ending though for a romanced Anders. If that plays out in the future, I would love to see how. (probably won't though.)

[CalJones]

Shame they took that Cassandra blood mage line out - the number of blood mages in game is ridiculous.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Hmmm idk, there's something... relaxing... about blowing up the chantry.
And also romancing anders makes it harder to kill him off, tho on one of the other gameplays im gonna rivalry him... tho idk about romancing... i heard it was glitched.

[Silver]

Silfren wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Also, what good did blowing up the chantry do ?
I didn't change anything for the better, and the only other circle we know of, the circle in Ferelden, wasn't that bad (at least not before Uldred went bonkers).

We don't know anything for certain yet, but we DO know that all the Circles throughout Thedas rose up in open rebellion.  I do think that was a good thing, and it certainly can change things for the better.

The Circle of Ferelden not being as egregiously bad as the one in Kirkwall doesn't equate to it being a good setup.

Maybe not a good setup, but certainly a better setup than the one in Kirkwall, don't you agree ?
While the rebellion may make things better for mages in the future, blowing up the chantry in Kirkwall has seriously hardened the templars there and probably everywhere else as well.
There's going to be a helluva lot of fighting and dying before any side will resort to talking, taking into account the "heated up" tempers on both sides.

So, Anders made it worse for a lot of people that had nothing to do with the immediate conflict, namely the general population at whose expense wars are always fought, both in this world and in Thedas.
That is among the key reasons why I shiv'd him...

Modifié par silverhammer08, 23 mai 2011 - 12:42 .

[Chris Readman]

I killed Anders the first time, even though I was romancing him. I did it because I was still reeling from the shock of his illogical actions, which allowed me to be strong-armed by Sebastian.

And then I realised how much I disliked Sebastian's character, so I reloaded the file and let Anders live just to spite him. Seriously, asking me what I would have done if you were in the Chantry when I couldn't care less about you, and forcing me to kill my comrade and love interest? And now that I think about it, letting Anders live will possibly allow me to murder Sebastian in the future, win-win-win!

After letting him live, I found out that he had most painfully bitter-sweet line if you continued with the romance. And that just made me want to let him live in every single playthrough from then on.

[rak72]

I hate Anders, killing him is the highlight of the game for me.

[Plaintiff]

silverhammer08 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

silverhammer08 wrote...

Also, what good did blowing up the chantry do ?
I didn't change anything for the better, and the only other circle we know of, the circle in Ferelden, wasn't that bad (at least not before Uldred went bonkers).

We don't know anything for certain yet, but we DO know that all the Circles throughout Thedas rose up in open rebellion.  I do think that was a good thing, and it certainly can change things for the better.

The Circle of Ferelden not being as egregiously bad as the one in Kirkwall doesn't equate to it being a good setup.

Maybe not a good setup, but certainly a better setup than the one in Kirkwall, don't you agree ?
While the rebellion may make things better for mages in the future, blowing up the chantry in Kirkwall has seriously hardened the templars there and probably everywhere else as well.
There's going to be a helluva lot of fighting and dying before any side will resort to talking, taking into account the "heated up" tempers on both sides.

So, Anders made it worse for a lot of people that had nothing to do with the immediate conflict, namely the general population at whose expense wars are always fought, both in this world and in Thedas.
That is among the key reasons why I shiv'd him...

War is sometimes necessary to effect change, and it was necessary in this case. However long it lasts, and however many lives are lost, nothing will compare to the one thousand years of systematic oppression enforced by the Chantry.

Anders is not solely responsible, either. Laying the blame at his feet ignores the fact that dozens of other people had the power to prevent war and chose not to.

[Silfren]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Hmmm idk, there's something... relaxing... about blowing up the chantry.
And also romancing anders makes it harder to kill him off, tho on one of the other gameplays im gonna rivalry him... tho idk about romancing... i heard it was glitched.

I think his entire rivalry ending is bugged, romance or no.  But that's slated to be fixed in the next patch, which should be coming down the pipe soon, as it was put out for certification last week.

[Silfren]

silverhammer08 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

We don't know anything for certain yet, but we DO know that all the Circles throughout Thedas rose up in open rebellion.  I do think that was a good thing, and it certainly can change things for the better.

The Circle of Ferelden not being as egregiously bad as the one in Kirkwall doesn't equate to it being a good setup.

Maybe not a good setup, but certainly a better setup than the one in Kirkwall, don't you agree ?
While the rebellion may make things better for mages in the future, blowing up the chantry in Kirkwall has seriously hardened the templars there and probably everywhere else as well.
There's going to be a helluva lot of fighting and dying before any side will resort to talking, taking into account the "heated up" tempers on both sides.

I think that's more or less what I already said, given the very statement of mine that you quoted.  But better doesn't mean good, and that's a very important distinction.  The Ferelden Circle not being as bad as the one in Kirkwall does NOT mean that the Ferelden Circle is a good setup.  But I already said that, so why are you asking me to repeat myself?

You asserted that nothing good could come of what Anders did.  I disagree.  It's not set in stone either way, so it's not guaranteed that it could lead to a good, overall positive outcome.  But I strongly take issue with the idea that extreme measures, whether you term them "bad" or whatever, can never lead to anything good, because the implication is always that only sweetness and light can ever bring about good, positive change, and that's a very naive and gullible view of the world that history has not borne out.  Nice doesn't always cut it.  In fact, "nice" usually just perpetuates the status quo.

[Silent X]

@ Giggles_Manically and Rifneno: Thanks! I found the clip on YouTube. Good stuff; I wonder why it got cut? Time limitations? It is funny how Connor just blurts out his personal history.

I'm still hoping some way to separate Anders and Justice might surface down the line. I don't know how likely it is, but damn. . . talk about an unhealthy relationship (between the two of them, I mean).

[Phoenix_Loftian]

I loved Anders for what he did. The Chantry was the most useless organization in this game. They either helped instigate war or didn't do anything about rising tensions. The Grand Cleric also couldn't keep her people in check during Act II so quite frankly, there is almost as much blood on her hands as there is Anders except Anders had a purpose and the Grand Cleric was a coward who always closed her eyes to all the violence and pent-up resentment.

[KotorEffect3]

I killed him in one playthrough just to satisfy my curiosity of having sebastion in the final battle and what he would say but overall I don't kill Anders, I don't agree with him blowing up the Chantry but I support his cause.