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[Darc_Requiem]

I kill him on every playthrough. The murder knife was too good for him. I don't like hypocritical terrorists. He wants to improve the plight of mages? How'd that work out for Ella? Was blowing up The Chantry the best he could come up with?

I mean too bad he doesn't know any powerful figures that could aid the plight of mages. Maybe a Viscount candidate, Prince, and a King? Oh wait he does have access to those type people. He personally knows Hawke, Sebastian, and Alistair. Anders is the Thedas version of Osama Bin Laden mixed with the Unabomber. He commits the same acts he claims to revile and leaves manifestos around trying to explain his lunacy. I wish the Sten that The Arishok sent for Peatrice would have hit Anders up with the two shot special. Better yet, I wish Sebastian would come back and arrow snipe Anders if you spared him or let him go.

Modifié par Darc_Requiem, 19 mai 2011 - 02:22 .

[Anchor5]

I love how overzealous people are about killing zealots.

[Withidread]

I've played through several times and have yet to let him live.
First playthrough was a female mage that romanced him... and he still ended up with a murder knife in his back. Hell truly hath no fury.
(Although for some reason the epilogue said he never left Hawke's side.... that was creepy...)

[The Baconer]

Anchor5 wrote...

I love how overzealous people are about killing zealots.

It's not about zealotry. Look at the wonders Tevinter achieved. Almost every ancient marvel of engineering is a product of the Imperium. Look at how technological advancement in Chantry-governed Thedas (aside from the Dwarves) seems to have stagnated, or even regressed in many cases.

[Rifneno]

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I kill him on every playthrough. The murder knife was too good for him. I don't like hypocritical terrorists. He wants to improve the plight of mages? How'd that work out for Ella? Was blowing up The Chantry the best he could come up with?

I mean too bad he doesn't know any powerful figures that could aid the plight of mages. Maybe a Viscount candidate, Prince, and a King? Oh wait he does have access to those type people. He personally knows Hawke, Sebastian, and Alistair. Anders is the Thedas version of Osama Bin Laden mixed with the Unabomber. He commits the same acts he claims to revile and leaves manifestos around trying to explain his lunacy. I wish the Sten that The Arishok sent for Peatrice would have hit Anders up with the two shot special. Better yet, I wish Sebastian would come back and arrow snipe Anders if you spared him or let him go.

You clearly don't have any idea the political and military power the Chantry holds.

1. The last Viscount that stood up to the templars was executed by them.
2. Sebastian is a scumbag that supports the Chantry and their evil. It's unlikely he'd even be able to get his kingdom back, even if he did his forces would be spent just getting it, and even if he did have forces, he wouldn't use them against the Chantry.
3. I didn't think a theory could fail any harder than having him rely on Sebastian, but Alistair? WOW. A guy he's met twice, for all of about 5 minutes. Yeah, I'm quite sure if Anders asked Alistair that Alistair would send Ferelden's already Blight-weakened forces in a battle they couldn't possibly win against the Chantry so that they could be under Orlesian rule again all the quicker. Great plan! Bravo, bravo!

Anchor5 wrote...

I love how overzealous people are about killing zealots.

Zealots? No. Zealots who use "God said so" as an all-encompassing excuse for any and every atrocity they want for a thousand years? Hell yes.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders is just as bad zealot as any of the templars in the game, if not worse. But I guess if his cause is not a religious one it's OK or something.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders is just as bad zealot as any of the templars in the game, if not worse. But I guess if his cause is not a religious one it's OK or something.

Right.  I forgot, the Chantry is an innocent third party.  They're not the ones that are about to send an army to crush all of Kirkwall because the Circle is getting fed up with the Chantry's rapists and murderers or anything.  Heavens no!

[ToughMcLiam]

Anders is just......misunderstood. he deserves revenge such as some have said yet i think he is wrong in blowing up the chantry there are many other things he could have done.

[Silent X]

I was completely shocked and sickened. . . but I spared him. I'm certainly not about to say that he doesn't deserve to die, but in the end I let him live. My Hawke was pro-mage in general but definitely did not condone blowing up the Chantry. On the one hand, what he did deserves execution, and he knows that, but on the other hand. . .

a) It kind of seems like an easy way out for him. If he dies, he doesn't have to deal with the consequences of what he's done.
My Hawke believed that there was still good in him, and couldn't stand to kill him if she were correct about that. After fleeing Kirkwall, she'd make it a priority to see if she could dig up a way to separate Anders and Vengeance, and give them both a chance to do better.
c) After seeing everything go to hell in Act III, culminating in Anders/Vengeance blowing up the Chantry. . . she was just damned sick to death of Vengeance. The spirit and the concept generally. To kill Anders for what he did would be exacting vengeance. And she felt that the best way to give him a metaphorical slap in the face was to refuse to play his game. Vengeance, meet Mercy.

I felt that Merrill expressed what I was thinking: "He should come with us. Do what he can to put things right."

Does he deserve another chance? No, not really. But that's often what mercy's about. My Hawke was sick of bloodshed by that point and wasn't going to shed any more than she had to.

Sebastian's reaction saddened her, but it made total sense for his character. She'd seen him pursue revenge before, and the person who had done the most to steer him away from that path had just died horribly. She couldn't blame him for storming off, but I wish the dialogue had given me a better option to express my character's reasoning for sparing Anders (not that I think it would have changed Sebastian's mind. . . sometimes I just wish my characters could express themselves better). That said, I also wanted an option to spare Anders but still hit him hard several times. As in, backhand across the face. And with Gloves of the Champion on, that oughta hurt.

I realize none of these reasons are entirely rational (if at all). Killing him is probably the more rational choice, as it safely eliminates the possibility of him doing such a thing ever again. But I imagine my Hawke keeping a 24-hour watch on him henceforth. Hard to do, but she'd be very serious about taking responsibility for him.

In short: Goddamnit, Anders, you are going to atone for what you've done.

[be Realistic]

"people who stand for more have more people stand against them"

:::random qunari quote:::

[be Realistic]

Ander did what HE thought was right

no different from how the chantry conducts itself.

there is no morally right or wrong decision as everyone has different morals

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders is just as bad zealot as any of the templars in the game, if not worse. But I guess if his cause is not a religious one it's OK or something.

Right.  I forgot, the Chantry is an innocent third party.  They're not the ones that are about to send an army to crush all of Kirkwall because the Circle is getting fed up with the Chantry's rapists and murderers or anything.  Heavens no!

I wasn't even talking about just the Chantry. He just doesn't seem to care how many people die for his cause. But even if I was talking the Chantry, his destire to destroy the whole thing and kill all the templars still makes him a zealot. Doing so would result in the deaths of many people who were innocent of any crime against him or anyone else. You could try to say they are all guilty by association with the Chantry but you could justify just about any atrocity that way.

[Darc_Requiem]

Rifneno wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I kill him on every playthrough. The murder knife was too good for him. I don't like hypocritical terrorists. He wants to improve the plight of mages? How'd that work out for Ella? Was blowing up The Chantry the best he could come up with?

I mean too bad he doesn't know any powerful figures that could aid the plight of mages. Maybe a Viscount candidate, Prince, and a King? Oh wait he does have access to those type people. He personally knows Hawke, Sebastian, and Alistair. Anders is the Thedas version of Osama Bin Laden mixed with the Unabomber. He commits the same acts he claims to revile and leaves manifestos around trying to explain his lunacy. I wish the Sten that The Arishok sent for Peatrice would have hit Anders up with the two shot special. Better yet, I wish Sebastian would come back and arrow snipe Anders if you spared him or let him go.

You clearly don't have any idea the political and military power the Chantry holds.

1. The last Viscount that stood up to the templars was executed by them.
2. Sebastian is a scumbag that supports the Chantry and their evil. It's unlikely he'd even be able to get his kingdom back, even if he did his forces would be spent just getting it, and even if he did have forces, he wouldn't use them against the Chantry.
3. I didn't think a theory could fail any harder than having him rely on Sebastian, but Alistair? WOW. A guy he's met twice, for all of about 5 minutes. Yeah, I'm quite sure if Anders asked Alistair that Alistair would send Ferelden's already Blight-weakened forces in a battle they couldn't possibly win against the Chantry so that they could be under Orlesian rule again all the quicker. Great plan! Bravo, bravo!

Anchor5 wrote...

I love how overzealous people are about killing zealots.

Zealots? No. Zealots who use "God said so" as an all-encompassing excuse for any and every atrocity they want for a thousand years? Hell yes.

Gaining more rights for mages isn't something that would happen over night. It would takes years of hard work. Looking for instant solution is the foolish one. Justice's impatience does more harm than good. Look at the parallels in real life. How long did it take women and minorities to get equal rights under the law in the US. What would have happened if someone from the Women's Suffrage or Abolitionists movements decided to blow up the White House or the Capitol in frustration? Do you think that would have helped their plight or set them back several decades or worse?

[Xilizhra]

He wasn't looking for an instant solution, just a workable one. The Chantry isn't a democracy, and it would solidly and probably lethally oppose peaceful means of raising awareness about mage oppression in some kind of Thedaswide campaign. It would, in any case, never willingly give up its power over mages, which is why some kind of violent casting down is likely necessary,

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

My (good girl) Warrior!Friendship who sided with the mages spared him for the SOLE REASON she figured she'd need a healer to get to the Gallows and defend the mages against the templars. IC, she had Anders executed for his crimes after the end of the game, when they were fleeing Kirkwall. She had not romanced Anders.

My (angry apostage) Mage!Rival who sided with the templars had slept with Anders post-Fenris but kicked him out when he tried to move in. She spared Anders because he had saved Carver's life, but told him to leave. She was forced to kill him when he reappeared at the Gallows. She also committed suicide after the game.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I wasn't even talking about just the Chantry. He just doesn't seem to care how many people die for his cause. But even if I was talking the Chantry, his destire to destroy the whole thing and kill all the templars still makes him a zealot. Doing so would result in the deaths of many people who were innocent of any crime against him or anyone else. You could try to say they are all guilty by association with the Chantry but you could justify just about any atrocity that way.

Remind me which world-dominating evil empire was beaten by the good guys going and killing only the troops known for a fact to be criminal (I guess we have to give each of them a trial?) and with no innocent civilians ever getting killed in collateral damage.

Yeah, I couldn't think of any either.  If you need me, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things happen in war and armed soldiers aren't considered innocent bystanders.

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Gaining more rights for mages isn't something that would happen over night. It would takes years of hard work. Looking for instant solution is the foolish one. Justice's impatience does more harm than good. Look at the parallels in real life. How long did it take women and minorities to get equal rights under the law in the US. What would have happened if someone from the Women's Suffrage or Abolitionists movements decided to blow up the White House or the Capitol in frustration? Do you think that would have helped their plight or set them back several decades or worse?

Looking for a peaceful solution is the foolish one. I find it odd you'd mention abolitionists. The slaves were freed by a brutal war, not by diplomacy. And that's the only decent parallel in our country's history. Women's rights is not comparable. Not being allowed to vote is a pretty far cry from being imprisoned for life as a child (not to mention the many other rights denied them).

Justice's impatience? He sat around for the better part of a decade watching Elthina refuse to stop Meredith from running roughshod. This oppression has been going on for a thousand years. Four times as long as the US has existed. So how is it comparable to anything in our history with a "wait and see" approach?

Lastly, the Chantry was preparing for an exalted march, a prettied up way of saying they were building an army to come crush Kirkwall. They were going to do far more damage than Anders did to them, just because their prisoners were getting tired of being raped, killed, or tranquilled (which many consider worse than death!). I have sympathy for a guy on the street that got killed by exploding debris. The clergy? Don't care. The templars? I'm just sorry they didn't suffer.

[Xilizhra]

Women's rights is not comparable. Not being allowed to vote is a pretty far cry from being imprisoned for life as a child (not to mention the many other rights denied them).

Plus, women (and homosexuals) were already integrated into the societies oppressing them. Slaves and many ethnic/national minorities in our world, and mages in DA, were not.

[Darc_Requiem]

Rifneno wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I wasn't even talking about just the Chantry. He just doesn't seem to care how many people die for his cause. But even if I was talking the Chantry, his destire to destroy the whole thing and kill all the templars still makes him a zealot. Doing so would result in the deaths of many people who were innocent of any crime against him or anyone else. You could try to say they are all guilty by association with the Chantry but you could justify just about any atrocity that way.

Remind me which world-dominating evil empire was beaten by the good guys going and killing only the troops known for a fact to be criminal (I guess we have to give each of them a trial?) and with no innocent civilians ever getting killed in collateral damage.

Yeah, I couldn't think of any either.  If you need me, I'll be over here in the real world where terrible things happen in war and armed soldiers aren't considered innocent bystanders.

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Gaining more rights for mages isn't something that would happen over night. It would takes years of hard work. Looking for instant solution is the foolish one. Justice's impatience does more harm than good. Look at the parallels in real life. How long did it take women and minorities to get equal rights under the law in the US. What would have happened if someone from the Women's Suffrage or Abolitionists movements decided to blow up the White House or the Capitol in frustration? Do you think that would have helped their plight or set them back several decades or worse?

Looking for a peaceful solution is the foolish one. I find it odd you'd mention abolitionists. The slaves were freed by a brutal war, not by diplomacy. And that's the only decent parallel in our country's history. Women's rights is not comparable. Not being allowed to vote is a pretty far cry from being imprisoned for life as a child (not to mention the many other rights denied them).

Justice's impatience? He sat around for the better part of a decade watching Elthina refuse to stop Meredith from running roughshod. This oppression has been going on for a thousand years. Four times as long as the US has existed. So how is it comparable to anything in our history with a "wait and see" approach?

Lastly, the Chantry was preparing for an exalted march, a prettied up way of saying they were building an army to come crush Kirkwall. They were going to do far more damage than Anders did to them, just because their prisoners were getting tired of being raped, killed, or tranquilled (which many consider worse than death!). I have sympathy for a guy on the street that got killed by exploding debris. The clergy? Don't care. The templars? I'm just sorry they didn't suffer.

Some times violence is necessary, that doesn't mean you go with as the first option. You don't want to do some foolish terror attack that causes people that were on your side to go over to opposition. The situation with Thrask shows that were Templars and Mages willing to work together for Mage rights. How many Templars with a similar view point will change their minds because of Ander's flat out stupid plan. I mean if he would have blown up Meredith, he would had the full support of the mages and half the Templars.

[LobselVith8]

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Some times violence is necessary, that doesn't mean you go with as the first option.

It wasn't Anders' first option. He was part of the underground, helping mages escape Meredith's grasp, and when he found out the Grand Cleric said no to the "Tranquil Solution," he advocated to Hawke that they should turn to her (as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in the southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River) and Meredith's superior (according to her own codex entry). However, Elthina doesn't do anything to resolve the dichotomy between the templars and the mages for seven years.

Darc_Requiem wrote...

You don't want to do some foolish terror attack that causes people that were on your side to go over to opposition. The situation with Thrask shows that were Templars and Mages willing to work together for Mage rights.

If Ser Thrask was alive, that would be a viable option, but the renegade movement of templars and mages working to remove Meredith as dictator of Kirkwall was destroyed by Hawke.

Darc_Requiem wrote...

How many Templars with a similar view point will change their minds because of Ander's flat out stupid plan.

I'm guessing Hawke killed most of them on his way to Ser Thrask. Keran, for instance, actually quits being a templar because he can't tolerate Meredith as the acting Knight-Commander.

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I mean if he would have blown up Meredith, he would had the full support of the mages and half the Templars.

None of the templars turn against Meredith when she invokes the Right of Annulment against the Circle for the actions of one apostate, and even Cullen doesn't until she threatens Hawke specifically - even if the Champion has been killing his way through a horde of templars (which makes little sense if Hawke is a mage since Cullen has said that mages can't be treated like people and are weapons).

[Beerfish]

He was an insane possessed apostate. Insane from his own hatred of templars and his corruption of a spirit of justice. A good lawyer could have probably got him off.

His biggest sin was assuming that he could speak and act for ALL mages rather than just the disgruntled minority that are very radical. He was smart enough to know that his acts probably will result in the deaths and torment of more mages than otherwise and yet he still did it....you know for their own good.

[Beerfish]

"Some times violence is necessary, that doesn't mean you go with as the first option. You don't want to do some foolish terror attack that causes people that were on your side to go over to opposition. The situation with Thrask shows that were Templars and Mages willing to work together for Mage rights. How many Templars with a similar view point will change their minds because of Ander's flat out stupid plan. I mean if he would have blown up Meredith, he would had the full support of the mages and half the Templars."

Yeah, too bad an apostate blood mage from Starkhaven that had been spared only by the efforts of Thrask killed poor old moderate Thrask. The epitome of showing that apostate mages on the loose are a true and real threat and the lame excuse that 'They are forced to do terrible things because of the mean templars!" does not hold water at all.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

"Some times violence is necessary, that doesn't mean you go with as the first option. You don't want to do some foolish terror attack that causes people that were on your side to go over to opposition. The situation with Thrask shows that were Templars and Mages willing to work together for Mage rights. How many Templars with a similar view point will change their minds because of Ander's flat out stupid plan. I mean if he would have blown up Meredith, he would had the full support of the mages and half the Templars."

Yeah, too bad an apostate blood mage from Starkhaven that had been spared only by the efforts of Thrask killed poor old moderate Thrask. The epitome of showing that apostate mages on the loose are a true and real threat and the lame excuse that 'They are forced to do terrible things because of the mean templars!" does not hold water at all.

This ignores that some mages are being mistreated. Alain references in Act II that a templar comes into his room late at night and threatens him with tranquility if he tells anyone anything. Alain eludes to this in Act III as the reason that he joined Ser Thrask's initiative of renegade templars and mages. We also know that Anders' first love Karl was illegally made tranquil by the order of Ser Alrik, so it's not like people are imagining that there are abuses being committed against mages in the storyline.

[Porenferser]

Everyone who has a REAL sense of Justice.

Modifié par Porenferser, 19 mai 2011 - 04:40 .

[KLGChaos]

I killed Anders. It was a tough choice, but I had 3 options-- have him join us, let him go or kill him. He murdered a bunch of innocents, some of them potentially children. If he wanted to strike a military post, fine, but he killed civilians who couldn't defend themselves. So, playing a good guy, I couldn't let him join. And I couldn't let him go in fear that he'd do the same to others. So I had only one choice left.