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[Darian Tylmare]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

But mages who everybody knows would fail the harrowing are made tranquill. Maybe, just maybe the good mages all turned to blood magic while the weaker once had no instructions or somebody who cared about them left and where made tranquill.

[Pileyourbodies]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

I thought some mages that fail the harrowing were made tranquil? My mistake then. Meredith was not nuts, the Mages in kirkwall are the ones that are mad. Every demon you encounter was helped by a mage and you meet a lot of demons here. Sure the mages can be unhappy and when they complain they're supposed to go to orsino who takes it to Meredith. Orsino failed in his duties to be a voice for the mages, he does nothing at all till the 3rd act up till then Thrask is the voice of reason and he is a templar. The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages.

[PantheraOnca]

I thought this thread would have an interesting OP. Instead, its just someone who is rebelling against mommy and daddy's belief structure and taking that notion to an extreme.

I'm not a fan of religion, but its not like everyone involved in the chantry is out there to oppress the masses, some of the religious hierarchy actually believes what they say.

[HarlequinKing]

Gabey5 wrote...

HarlequinKing wrote...

SpeakingInSilence wrote...

Ander's did not even target the Templars when he destroyed the Chantry. The Chantry like a church is filled with civilians. People go there to worship and to find peace with their god. Terrorism is when an individual or a group specifically target civilians to cause fear.

Indeed. Liar (wouldn't come clean about his plot), hypocrite (cites Chantry teaching only when it suits him), traitor to Hawke, deserter to the Warden, terrorist.... and coward. What a jerk.

how is he a traitor to hawke? He didn;t desert the warden... the warden left his post as commander to pursue morrigan etc , the blight was over, a terroist? He did what he had to do to free his people

It depends on your playthrough, of course. In mine, Anders betrayed Hawke by using him, or attempting to use him, for his own terrorist ends. He betrayed the Warden by deserting the Order. (This is true of the Warden himself if he walks through the Eluvian in Witch Hunt.) But otherwise, the Warden presumably returns to his duties after that quest. He got the tip on Morrigan's activities through his seneschal at Amaranthine.

And I still don't understand how blowing up the Chantry actually helps mages. It just condemns more of them to death, and probably creates a schism between mages themselves. No doubt many mages, like Wynne, are devout Andrastians themselves who would rather fight other mages than templars after what happened.

[Ninja Mage]

rma2110 wrote...

So basically Justice would see a mage like Bethany killed just because she's happy in the circle? Justice really is vengeance.

Correct. Justice and Vengeance are the same. Remember what Isabela said..

"Justice is good as an idea,  a thing to exist in a dream, but in the real world it can never work. If you killed a templar do they not demand justice?? It turns into a bar brawl where no one knows who started it but everyone is dead."

That's why anders is a tragic character. His lust for death stops him from seeing the vicious cycle

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

I thought some mages that fail the harrowing were made tranquil? My mistake then. Meredith was not nuts, the Mages in kirkwall are the ones that are mad. Every demon you encounter was helped by a mage and you meet a lot of demons here. Sure the mages can be unhappy and when they complain they're supposed to go to orsino who takes it to Meredith. Orsino failed in his duties to be a voice for the mages, he does nothing at all till the 3rd act up till then Thrask is the voice of reason and he is a templar. The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages.

If you fail the Harrowing you become an Abomination and die because the templars cut your head off. If you refuse to take the Harrowing you're made Tranquil. It's a lose-lose situation from the start IMO.

"The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages."

I'm sorry, but that is just silly. We see that there are "good" and "bad" people on both sides. Both sides added fuel to the fire. Both sides are to blame for what happened.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

I thought some mages that fail the harrowing were made tranquil? My mistake then. Meredith was not nuts, the Mages in kirkwall are the ones that are mad. Every demon you encounter was helped by a mage and you meet a lot of demons here. Sure the mages can be unhappy and when they complain they're supposed to go to orsino who takes it to Meredith. Orsino failed in his duties to be a voice for the mages, he does nothing at all till the 3rd act up till then Thrask is the voice of reason and he is a templar. The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages.

If you fail the Harrowing you become an Abomination and die because the templars cut your head off. If you refuse to take the Harrowing you're made Tranquil. It's a lose-lose situation from the start IMO.

"The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages."

I'm sorry, but that is just silly. We see that there are "good" and "bad" people on both sides. Both sides added fuel to the fire. Both sides are to blame for what happened.

We see one bad templar, Arlik. We see no good mages. 

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

But mages who everybody knows would fail the harrowing are made tranquill. Maybe, just maybe the good mages all turned to blood magic while the weaker once had no instructions or somebody who cared about them left and where made tranquill.

How would they "know"? Who decides? How do they decide? How are they qualified to decide?

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

We see one bad templar, Arlik. We see no good mages. 

The templars who want to unquestiongly slaughter the escaped Starkhaven mages (and their fellow templar to boot) were "good"? Bethany was a "bad" mage? It's not that black and white. It never is.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 03:04 .

[Darian Tylmare]

Well you can measure the power of mages. Some can cause huge explosions without much effort while others barely get to light a candle. Since the chantry, templersor other mages assume that they are too weak to keep around they are made tranquill.

[Pileyourbodies]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

We see one bad templar, Arlik. We see no good mages. 

The templars who want to unquestiongly slaughter the escaped Starkhaven mages (and their fellow templar to boot) were "good"? Bethany was a "bad" mage? It's not that black and white. It never is.

Considering EVERY single one of those mages in that cave are blood mages....Yes they're good. I should have excluded family members as Bethany is the good mage the one good mage. Merill is a blood mage and can lead to the slaughter of he whole clan and anders is a terrorist so not even party members are good mages.

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Well you can measure the power of mages. Some can cause huge explosions without much effort while others barely get to light a candle. Since the chantry, templersor other mages assume that they are too weak to keep around they are made tranquill.

And why exacctly is that okay? Resisting a demon is about your intelligence, your mental strength, how well you can resist temptation. The true test of the Harrowing in DAO was not fighting the Rage Demon, it was about resisitng the Pride Demon.

They also lobotomize mages they think are "too powerful". How is that okay?

[Pileyourbodies]

Sabariel wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Well you can measure the power of mages. Some can cause huge explosions without much effort while others barely get to light a candle. Since the chantry, templersor other mages assume that they are too weak to keep around they are made tranquill.

And why exacctly is that okay? Resisting a demon is about your intelligence, your mental strength, how well you can resist temptation. The true test of the Harrowing in DAO was not fighting the Rage Demon, it was about resisitng the Pride Demon.

They also lobotomize mages they think are "too powerful". How is that okay?

When they can posses you with their minds and summon a demon at the drop of a hat it seems like a good defense.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

We see one bad templar, Arlik. We see no good mages. 

The templars who want to unquestiongly slaughter the escaped Starkhaven mages (and their fellow templar to boot) were "good"? Bethany was a "bad" mage? It's not that black and white. It never is.

Considering EVERY single one of those mages in that cave are blood mages....Yes they're good. I should have excluded family members as Bethany is the good mage the one good mage. Merill is a blood mage and can lead to the slaughter of he whole clan and anders is a terrorist so not even party members are good mages.

Not every blood mage is "bad". Not to mention the fact that the templars didn't know about the blood magic. All they knew was the mages escaped and they wanted to kill them just for that. All you know is someone wants to be free of you. Killing them for that is "good"?

Anders also set up a free clinic and helped people, mage or not. You're condeming him for one act that was not entirely caused by him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Well you can measure the power of mages. Some can cause huge explosions without much effort while others barely get to light a candle. Since the chantry, templersor other mages assume that they are too weak to keep around they are made tranquill.

Heck, a prepubescent boy who could barely cast a cantrip took over one of the most influential centers of power in Ferelden and nearly massacred it's home city.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Well you can measure the power of mages. Some can cause huge explosions without much effort while others barely get to light a candle. Since the chantry, templersor other mages assume that they are too weak to keep around they are made tranquill.

And why exacctly is that okay? Resisting a demon is about your intelligence, your mental strength, how well you can resist temptation. The true test of the Harrowing in DAO was not fighting the Rage Demon, it was about resisitng the Pride Demon.

They also lobotomize mages they think are "too powerful". How is that okay?

When they can posses you with their minds and summon a demon at the drop of a hat it seems like a good defense.

"Because there's a chance you might potientially be dangerous...maybe" is not a good reason to kill or lobotomize someone. Everyone should have a right to the Harrowing if they're going to insist that it be done.

[Darian Tylmare]

Did I ever say it's okay? Maybe the weak ones want to ursurp power? There was a codex entry in DA:O about a mage in Tevinter who did light the candles for the Archon and one day tried to kill him and the others. Maybe the weak ones are easier to tempt with the promise of power?
And most mages whos powers go through the roof are blood mages.
And besides, you have to admit that most mages you meet in this game are douchebags trying to kill you. There was something seriously wrong in that circle even before Meredith started putting pressure on them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabariel wrote...
And why exacctly is that okay? Resisting a demon is about your intelligence, your mental strength, how well you can resist temptation. The true test of the Harrowing in DAO was not fighting the Rage Demon, it was about resisitng the Pride Demon.

Just a small aside and it's a bit off-topic. But I was under the impression that mages during the Harrowing confront the demon that they would "naturally" be the most vulnerable to.

In Origins, the mage Warden confronts a pride demon because he's essentially the rising superstar of the Circle and everyone thinks he'll be awesome. Which makes him vulnerable to pride. I don't think a Pride demon is going to waste his time with an apathetic mage with an inferiority complex (that's more a sloth demon's domain).

But off-topic. Carry on

[Pileyourbodies]

I'm going to stop the quote train we have going here

Yes i can condemn him for one act when that act is such a heinous act of terrorism.

Name a good blood mage. Merrill did it for a selfish reason and went to a pride demon for help. Do we know they didn't know about the blood magic?

Dean makes a good point in the defense of templar practices of the risk of mages.

[NKKKK]

There was a good post in another thread on how you can justify Ander's actions because of the no compromise...can't find it though.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

I'm going to stop the quote train we have going here

Yes i can condemn him for one act when that act is such a heinous act of terrorism.

Name
a good blood mage. Merrill did it for a selfish reason and went to a
pride demon for help. Do we know they didn't know about the blood magic?


Dean makes a good point in the defense of templar practices of the risk of mages.

My Hawke and my Warden were both good blood mages [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Jowan, while misguided, was not evil either. He was also a blood mage.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Except there is always compromise. Nothing can ever justify terrorism. Had he attacked the gallows i wouldn't call him a terrorist but he attacked a church with civilians in it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jowan being evil is more or less whether you decide it by acts or intentions.

In terms of acts, Jowan was pretty much doomed to be evil, no matter what he did. Not least because he wouldn't stop digging deeper graves for himself.

[Pileyourbodies]

Since the specializations don't do anything for story purposes you can't count them. Especially since my Hawke/warden can be extremely evil blood thirsty blood mages.

Jowan was evil. He posioned an Arl who is one of the most decent people in the game.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except there is always compromise. Nothing can ever justify terrorism. Had he attacked the gallows i wouldn't call him a terrorist but he attacked a church with civilians in it.

And the Chantry/Templars oppressed mages for ages just for being mages and lobotomized thousands, maybe millions, of innocent mages for being, in their opinion, "too weak" or "too powerful". Is it only okay if innocent mages die? Everyone contributed to the final result, including Anders.