1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Since the specializations don't do anything for story purposes you can't count them. Especially since my Hawke/warden can be extremely evil blood thirsty blood mages.

Jowan was evil. He posioned an Arl who is one of the most decent people in the game.

Jowan was manipulated into doing what he did by either Loghain or Howe. Whoever it was said: "poison this tratior or be sent to the Circle and die". He thought he was doing something good for his country because of someone else's lies.

If someone told you to poison a dictator and you did it then, oops, found out that you'd been lied to and that dictator was actually a priest with spotlessly clean morals that wouldn't make you evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anders certainly contributes more at the relevant time to the relevant situation than any other individual, and the costs of his little war are almost certainly going to be far greater for everyone involved than what was already happening, with little to no likelihood of establishing anything better in exchange.

Not, mind you, that freedom is Anders goal in the first place. Death meets his goals just as well, as he'll admit.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pileyourbodies wrote...
Name a good blood mage.

It is yet to be established if the blood mages and Magister Lords of  Ancient Tevinter were all as horrific as Chantry propaganda would have us believe.

But there is at least one who might be "good" even by Chantry admission. And that's Archon Hessarian (I assume he is a magister lord and thus practises blood magic).

We don't know if the Magister Lords of Ancient Tevinter were all maniacs that were controlled by demons. That sounds like such an unfeasible way to create and maintain such an Empire.
They delt with demons, but at worst, they were allies. At best, weapons and tools to be used and controlled.

And that's what I am waiting for personally. To have a deeper insight and exploration of Ancient Tevinter. Without Chantry propaganda.

[Sabariel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anders certainly contributes more at the relevant time to the relevant situation than any other individual, and the costs of his little war are almost certainly going to be far greater for everyone involved than what was already happening, with little to no likelihood of establishing anything better in exchange.

Oh, bull. If it hadn't been Anders it would have been someone else.

[Pileyourbodies]

Innocent mages who could have become demons. It is against what the united states stands for in that we can't fault people before they commit a crime but Thedas isn't here and they have a history of mage problems. look at the impirium where millions have died because of the mages wanting more power.

[Darian Tylmare]

Sabariel wrote...

And the Chantry/Templars oppressed mages for ages just for being mages and lobotomized thousands, maybe millions, of innocent mages for being, in their opinion, "too weak" or "too powerful". Is it only okay if innocent mages die? Everyone contributed to the final result, including Anders.

This making mages tranquill was only in Kirkwall this excessive. Before, only the weak in spirit were made tranquill, otherwise the mage warden wouldn't have a soul eather.
And the circle was founded after an idea from mages. They weren't oppressed from the beginning. They purposefully locked themselfes away so they wouldn't be bothered by normal people and could be among themselfes.
The oppression they feel is mostly a product of their view of the circle. Most mages see the circle as a cage instead of a habitat as which it was envisioned before.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anders certainly contributes more at the relevant time to the relevant situation than any other individual, and the costs of his little war are almost certainly going to be far greater for everyone involved than what was already happening, with little to no likelihood of establishing anything better in exchange.

Oh, bull. If it hadn't been Anders it would have been someone else.

In which case that other person would have been primarily responsible for that relevant situation.

Simply because something will likely happen doesn't mean you are excused for going out of your way to do it. Everybody dies, but that doesn't make it alright to kill them.Governments fall, but that doesn't inherently justify over throwing them.

Anders took a crisis which he believed could have been mitigated by compromise, and deliberately destroyed any chance of just that. He deserves the responsibility of the consequences of his actions, whether or not a war was likely in the long run anyway.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...
Name a good blood mage.

It is yet to be established if the blood mages and Magister Lords of  Ancient Tevinter were all as horrific as Chantry propaganda would have us believe.

But there is at least one who might be "good" even by Chantry admission. And that's Archon Hessarian (I assume he is a magister lord and thus practises blood magic).

We don't know if the Magister Lords of Ancient Tevinter were all maniacs that were controlled by demons. That sounds like such an unfeasible way to create and maintain such an Empire.
They delt with demons, but at worst, they were allies. At best, weapons and tools to be used and controlled.

And that's what I am waiting for personally. To have a deeper insight and exploration of Ancient Tevinter. Without Chantry propaganda.

Well, we also have Fenris' observations on Tevinter and its magisters.

While I admit he's not exactly an objective witness, having been a slave, his stories and views do match Chantry "propganda".

And yes, I do believe the Chantry exagerates for effect.  However, I also question whether a nation where a person's power is determined solely by their actual "power", and where displays of that power are expected and even routinely necessary, is the best way to run things.

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

And the Chantry/Templars oppressed mages for ages just for being mages and lobotomized thousands, maybe millions, of innocent mages for being, in their opinion, "too weak" or "too powerful". Is it only okay if innocent mages die? Everyone contributed to the final result, including Anders.

This making mages tranquill was only in Kirkwall this excessive. Before, only the weak in spirit were made tranquill, otherwise the mage warden wouldn't have a soul eather.
And the circle was founded after an idea from mages. They weren't oppressed from the beginning. They purposefully locked themselfes away so they wouldn't be bothered by normal people and could be among themselfes.
The oppression they feel is mostly a product of their view of the circle. Most mages see the circle as a cage instead of a habitat as which it was envisioned before.

Over all the years the Circles have existed, even if one innocent mage was Tranquilized per Circle, that would add up to a lot. Both mages who are "too weak" and "too powerful" are forced into Tranquility. They are forced to live in the Circle. That's not the least bit oppressive?

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 03:33 .

[Kerilus]

The Grand Cleric was a good woman.

[Pileyourbodies]

Even if one blood mage existed that would be a lot more innocents killed. Look at how many thralls each bloodmage rager has.

[Darian Tylmare]

When in the game is it stated besides Meredith's overreaction that powerful mages are made tranquill?
And even so, as I stated earlier: "It's better to ensure the wellbeing of the many over the wellbeing of the few."
This is not a wildcard to oppress or abuse them, but if it is necessary, those people are the ones who should "take one for the team" in order for the majority to keep going on.

[Pileyourbodies]

Also bethany actually seemed to like the circle other than Arlik and she had been free for her whole life.

[Kerilus]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Also bethany actually seemed to like the circle other than Arlik and she had been free for her whole life.

Sh said that so you wouldn't worry about her ,man. Whenyou talk to her before the final battles, she told you she thought running all her life couldn't be better than in the Circle, but in fact she only learnt how free she was after she was brought to the Circle.

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

When in the game is it stated besides Meredith's overreaction that powerful mages are made tranquill?
And even so, as I stated earlier: "It's better to ensure the wellbeing of the many over the wellbeing of the few."
This is not a wildcard to oppress or abuse them, but if it is necessary, those people are the ones who should "take one for the team" in order for the majority to keep going on.

I'm not talking about DA2. In DAO it's stated that mages who are "too weak" or "too powerful" are forced to become Tranquil. I doubt it would be any different in Kirkwall, especially with good ol' Meredith at the helm.

Would you "take one for the team"? Would you live in a tower, apart from your family? Would you abstain from love, marriage, and a family of your own? Would you allow your brain to be turned to mush?

[Darian Tylmare]

I had a talk about this with my girlfriend lately.
No this goes OT but in my oppinion the world is overpopulated. Now if there would be cards given out with "you life" and "you die" that would be randomly given to every person on this planet, including head of states and so on I would sacrifice myself because in the long run I know that my life will probably not make that much of an impact for the whole humanity.
Yes, in order to help the whole race of mankind I would gladly "take one for the team."

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Well, we also have Fenris' observations on Tevinter and its magisters.

While I admit he's not exactly an objective witness, having been a slave, his stories and views do match Chantry "propganda".

And yes, I do believe the Chantry exagerates for effect.  However, I also question whether a nation where a person's power is determined solely by their actual "power", and where displays of that power are expected and even routinely necessary, is the best way to run things.

Might not be the best way to run things (even though we have yet to see a power to rival the ancient Tevinter Imperium. Its vestiges are still in use in present Thedas). That doesn't mean that its Magister lords were all maniacs and abominations.  It would be pretty hard to build such an Empire if that was the case.
 
And Fenris' situation becomes more nuanced at the end, which by implication makes at least Danarius more nuanced.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

I had a talk about this with my girlfriend lately.
No this goes OT but in my oppinion the world is overpopulated. Now if there would be cards given out with "you life" and "you die" that would be randomly given to every person on this planet, including head of states and so on I would sacrifice myself because in the long run I know that my life will probably not make that much of an impact for the whole humanity.
Yes, in order to help the whole race of mankind I would gladly "take one for the team."

And yet that is not the mage's situation at all. Put yourself in their shoes, then answer my question.

[Zenstrive]

Ah. An Atheist. Tell me something: Have you taken your anti schizophrenic medicines?

[Darian Tylmare]

Dieing and not being able to feel anything ever again pretty seems like the same for me.
And life and love and such things seemed to exist in some Circles at least.
I think moving out is the same as going away from your family.
Yeah, so no problem with that. The trade of would be that I can than throw fireballs, this doesn't sound too bad.

[Ninja Mage]

I cannot kill him, he belongs by my side

/drama

[LoveAsThouWilt]

I agreed with him to a point. He saw things as black and white and his actions made it so no gray field could be seen at all. His action I condemned, but I understand his reasons behind it. While I did not agree, I could not completely blame him. Once again, the way mages were treated cumulated in dangerous apostates, not that there wouldn't ALWAYS be some. My dude Hawke romanced him so I couldn't not take his side either. I understood, even if I did blame him for it.

I think you see it in a waaaaay to dangerous a fashion. A zealot fashion that leads to dangerous things. To be honest I hate religion in general and it is all stupid fairy tales what we are told as we grow up and some cling to. Why? Because people seek answers where they can't find them. A purpose where they're might not be one. Given that though I do not fault peoples NEED to believe, or what they believe. I only fault the actions they choose to take in those beliefs and THAT is where "religion as a detriment" really can be argued as a fact, but that is another discussion altogether.

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

Dieing and not being able to feel anything ever again pretty seems like the same for me.
And life and love and such things seemed to exist in some Circles at least.
I think moving out is the same as going away from your family.
Yeah, so no problem with that. The trade of would be that I can than throw fireballs, this doesn't sound too bad.

You're taken from your family the minute you show magic (usually at a very young age). That's not the same as choosing to move out when you're an adult, is it?

If you have a child in the Circle, it is taken away from you and you never see it again. Not the same as choosing not to have children, isn't it?

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Well, we also have Fenris' observations on Tevinter and its magisters.

While I admit he's not exactly an objective witness, having been a slave, his stories and views do match Chantry "propganda".

And yes, I do believe the Chantry exagerates for effect.  However, I also question whether a nation where a person's power is determined solely by their actual "power", and where displays of that power are expected and even routinely necessary, is the best way to run things.

Might not be the best way to run things (even though we have yet to see a power to rival the ancient Tevinter Imperium. Its vestiges are still in use in present Thedas). That doesn't mean that its Magister lords were all maniacs and abominations.  It would be pretty hard to build such an Empire if that was the case.
 
And Fenris' situation becomes more nuanced at the end, which by implication makes at least Danarius more nuanced.

Oh, no doubt it can be a very powerful place (and was, apparently) and that power can certainly be used to do great things (thus, its vestiges we see).

And while I agree that not every magister could have been a maniac, clearly it wasn;t the best place to live if one was not powerful enough.

Fenris does become more nuanced, I agree . . . however, but the end game, I'd gotten a bit tired of his constant rageboy banter, and wasn't listening to him much . . . .

[Pileyourbodies]

See i can't put myself into the mages shoes but i could in the templars.

Put yourself in the average persons shoes if your next door neighbor could make you explode!!!! wouldn't you want him to have some super vision?