1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

See i can't put myself into the mages shoes but i could in the templars.

Put yourself in the average persons shoes if your next door neighbor could make you explode!!!! wouldn't you want him to have some super vision?

COULD, not will. Not every mage is a super-dangerous-abomination-waiting-to-happen... just as every templar is not an oppressive jackass.

[Darian Tylmare]

What, you want me to say I pity them? Yes, I do!
But I will never say that even though I can unerstand their reasoning I will take the same actions.
Why, doing the wrong things for the right cause doesn'T make your actions (e.g. Anders) right.

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course, the potential and likely harm of one mage being a dangerous abomination tends to outweigh the potential and likely harm of one templar being an oppressive jackass.

[Pileyourbodies]

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

[Ninja Mage]

Someone give Sabariel the right of Tranquility. She is a pride demon waiting to burst forth! She cannot be a risk for everyone here. An abomination in waiting so to speak

/Meredith

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
And while I agree that not every magister could have been a maniac, clearly it wasn;t the best place to live if one was not powerful enough.

Other than the slaves (and there were many), I'd think most people were just left alone (and even slavery is nuanced).
Non-mages might not have as much opportunity as mages (just like now, mages don't have as much opportunity as non-mages). But I don't think that non-mages were harassed and repressed on a scale that goes way beyond what is shared by practically most oligarchies (if not most systems in general). For one, I doubt that non-mages were all rounded up in quaranty and seperated from their parents...etc.  Because of logistical difficulties primarly, I'd think.

But the merits and problems of the Tevinter political system was not really my point. The point was that if blood magic inevitably leads to abominations, insanity and madness, it would have been very hard for the Tevinter Imperium to be built and maintainned for such a long time. So I think there can be "good" , or at least productive and sane blood mages.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Meredith wouldn't do that unless good Sabariel left the circle. Odds are s/he'd just be locked up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, the potential and likely harm of one mage being a dangerous abomination tends to outweigh the potential and likely harm of one templar being an oppressive jackass.

Except if an idol made of pure Lyrium is involved

[Sabariel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, the potential and likely harm of one mage being a dangerous abomination tends to outweigh the potential and likely harm of one templar being an oppressive jackass.

"The Tranquil Solution" begs to differ.

[Pileyourbodies]

Even with the idol she failed to actually kill anyone in the end there.

[Darian Tylmare]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And while I agree that not every magister could have been a maniac, clearly it wasn;t the best place to live if one was not powerful enough.

Other than the slaves (and there were many), I'd think most people were just left alone (and even slavery is nuanced).
Non-mages might not have as much opportunity as mages (just like now, mages don't have as much opportunity as non-mages). But I don't think that non-mages were harassed and repressed on a scale that goes way beyond what is shared by practically most oligarchies (if not most systems in general). For one, I doubt that non-mages were all rounded up in quaranty and seperated from their parents...etc.  Because of logistical difficulties primarly, I'd think.

But the merits and problems of the Tevinter political system was not really my point. The point was that if blood magic inevitably leads to abominations, insanity and madness, it would have been very hard for the Tevinter Imperium to be built and maintain for such a long time. So I think there can be "good" , or at least productive and sane blood mages.

Well, blood mages encountered so far didn't have slaves as a bargain for their own life and souls, so maybe that's why Tevinter magisters are so powerful. It is somewhere said that demons try to get as many dreamers as they can and maybe the magisters use their slaves as substitutes for themselfes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Even with the idol she failed to actually kill anyone in the end there.

Just like Orsino failed to kill anyone. Because Hawke was there.

And she did kill many mages, who were not responsable for what Anders did.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

Irving went his entire life without becoming an Abomination. Gee, how did that happen?

Darian Tylmare wrote...

What, you want me to say I pity them? Yes, I do!
But I will never say that even though I can unerstand their reasoning I will take the same actions.
Why, doing the wrong things for the right cause doesn'T make your actions (e.g. Anders) right.

I didn't say he was right. I just think it's silly to yell  "IT'S ALL ANDERS' FAULT!" Because, it's not. It's the Chantry, Circle,  templars, mages, and Anders' fault.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Sabariel]

Sort-of double post. Meant to edit. Ended up posting again instead :happy:

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Darian Tylmare]

It was not his fault alone but in the end he was the catalyst for the new war that Varric is talking about.
It wasn't solely his fault, but he destroyed every possibility of peaceful negotions along with the Kirkwall chantry.

[Pileyourbodies]

Irving got lucky and he isn't dead yet he can still turn to demons although unlikely. Even after death his body can still become a vessel for a demon so untill he is dead and cremated you cannot say he isn't a demon waiting to happen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darian Tylmare wrote...
Well, blood mages encountered so far didn't have slaves as a bargain for their own life and souls, so maybe that's why Tevinter magisters are so powerful. It is somewhere said that demons try to get as many dreamers as they can and maybe the magisters use their slaves as substitutes for themselfes.

Or maybe they actually controlled demons. Avernus attempted to use them, not with the promise of slaves. It failed, he couldn't control them (I remember it was because he summoned too many). doesn't mean it's impossible.

And I am not convinced that a maleficar has to sell his soul (or any other) to anyone or anything. He powers magic via his own lifeforce. If anything, that's less risky than relying on Lyrium and the Fade to draw magic. I think a non-blood mage is just as suscepitble of being controlled by a demon.   

Now what the Tevinters did is sometimes amass a lot of slaves and essentially use them as batteries to empower their spells. Not a nice hting to do, but not too dissimilar from cannon fodder. And I don't think we know that they did this for their amusement and not for emergency situations. 

[Pileyourbodies]

Have you seen the bonepit? read the codex descriptions for what Tevinters will do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabariel wrote...

I didn't say he was right. I just think it's silly to yell  "IT'S ALL ANDERS' FAULT!" Because, it's not. It's the Chantry, Circle,  templars, mages, and Anders' fault.

Or as what the Arishok would say. All these are symptoms of a disease. Of a dysfunctional system in a dysfunctional society with a dysfunctional past.
For me personally, trying to pin blame ends up being a futile excercize.

But unlike the Arishok, I would not claim to know the ultimate cure to all diseases or if there is even one. And really, I don't think I want a permanent cure. Life would be so boring.

[Pileyourbodies]

Without anders eventually the Grand cleric would step in. Might take more time but less people would have died.

[lx_theo]

It was needed. It was the only real way. No matter how horrible it is, its right, in a sense.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Have you seen the bonepit? read the codex descriptions for what Tevinters will do.

Which any non-blood mage could have done. Or anyone who isn't a mage could have done.
This has nothing to do with blood magic.

[Taleroth]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Put yourself in the average persons shoes if your next door neighbor could make you explode!!!! wouldn't you want him to have some super vision?

My next door neighbor can make me explode.  This is the reality most of us live in.  Life is fragile.

It does not mean that there should be a doctrine for murdering entire groups on mere suspicion.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Darian Tylmare]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Or maybe they actually controlled demons. Avernus attempted to use them, not with the promise of slaves. It failed, he couldn't control them (I remember it was because he summoned too many). doesn't mean it's impossible.

And I am not convinced that a maleficar has to sell his soul (or any other) to anyone or anything. He powers magic via his own lifeforce. If anything, that's less risky than relying on Lyrium and the Fade to draw magic. I think a non-blood mage is just as suscepitble of being controlled by a demon.   

Now what the Tevinters did is sometimes amass a lot of slaves and essentially use them as batteries to empower their spells. Not a nice hting to do, but not too dissimilar from cannon fodder. And I don't think we know that they did this for their amusement and not for emergency situations. 

I thought the demons actually tricked Avernus in opneing a teir in the veil so they could go through.
And to what other end are demons trying to negotiate with mages as to ursurping their souls to get into the mages body.
Maybe the Tevinter mages are good rulers and people, but from everything we know until now they are just a bunch of mages, who are drunk with their own power and on a constant quest to get even more.

[Sabariel]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

It was not his fault alone but in the end he was the catalyst for the new war that Varric is talking about.
It wasn't solely his fault, but he destroyed every possibility of peaceful negotions along with the Kirkwall chantry.

I think both sides are too bitter for a peaceful solution. It might have started that way, but would have ended violently no matter who did what.