1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Pileyourbodies]

Taleroth wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Put yourself in the average persons shoes if your next door neighbor could make you explode!!!! wouldn't you want him to have some super vision?

My next door neighbor can make me explode.  This is the reality most of us live in.  Life is fragile.

It does not mean that there should be a doctrine for murdering entire groups on mere suspicion.

But you have the same power to make him explode and we have Police in our world that stops us from killing each other. Serial killers don't kill 70 people usually. 

Meredith tells a story of her sister who was an apostate who killed her entire family and 70 other innocent people.

Stink i'm not saying all mages are evil. They have great capacity for good. However all blood mages are evil as are any that make pacts with demons.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 16 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[Darian Tylmare]

Sabariel wrote...

I think both sides are too bitter for a peaceful solution. It might have started that way, but would have ended violently no matter who did what.

Maybe, maybe not but now we will never know. I'm not so starey eyed as to say everything can resolve peacefully and this situation was really messed up from all sides. In the end everybody carries part of the blame.

[Kerilus]

Sabariel wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

It was not his fault alone but in the end he was the catalyst for the new war that Varric is talking about.
It wasn't solely his fault, but he destroyed every possibility of peaceful negotions along with the Kirkwall chantry.

I think both sides are too bitter for a peaceful solution. It might have started that way, but would have ended violently no matter who did what.

Not really, I for one had been working on a peaceful solution. And right before Anders detroyed the Chantry, Meredith did show some degree of empathy for the First Enchanter.

[Veronica Ward]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Without anders eventually the Grand cleric would step in. Might take more time but less people would have died.

No she wouldn't. She was a terrible leader, look at how much action she took when her subordinates were running around the city inciting a riot. Even if she did eventually step up how many people would have been killed before she took action? Certainly more than were in the chanty when it went boom. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darian Tylmare wrote...
Maybe the Tevinter mages are good rulers and people, but from everything we know until now they are just a bunch of mages, who are drunk with their own power and on a constant quest to get even more.

You have to remember that almost everything we know about the Tevinter imperium is either via the Chantry, or elves. Needless to say, both absolutely hate the Tevinter Imperium.
The only positive guy they mention is Hessarian.

What I've seen thus far is that the Tevinter Imperium despite many many flaws, was an impressive civilization. Its imperial highways are still in use. It even had a whole bridge that stretched over the Waking sea (see map). In Awakening, we see their magical towers, which is pretty impressive.

I doubt all this could have been accomplished if you didn't have magisters who were at the very least sane.
And power mongering is not dependent on blood magic or magic. But they will be more effective at it, I'll grant that. Hence why I believe in supervising mages. But we don't know anything about how the Tevinter Imperium educated and trained their mages. They could have been very strict. 

And we mustn't forget that the Wardens do have blood mages in their ranks as well. Those can count as "good" blood mages, why not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[Pileyourbodies]

She was taking the middle ground veronica. She did stop patrice and basically let the quanri execute her to keep the peace. To answer the second part the a helluvalot fewer would have died than what did happen.

[Taritu]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective

Grade A bull manure. Once you start killing innocent people, you're a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. No amount of perspective will change that.

Resistance against invading forces during WW2 - freedom fighting. Blowing up WTC - terrorism. There's no place here for shades of gray.

Oh please.  Grow up.  Was Dresden terrorism?  The fire bombing of Tokyo?  What about the half million Iraqi children who died from sanctions in the 90s.  Were they evil?

You've scuppered up propaganda.  With that definition of terrorism, virtually everything is terrorism.

Which, actually, might not be so bad, but somehow it doesn't get applied that way, does it?

As Thucydides said over 2500 years ago, "the powerful do what they will, the weak suffer what they must".  And the powerful call their enemies killing innocents terrorism, but when they do it it isn't terrorism.

If Anders is a terrorist, so is Meredith, with all the mages she's made tranquil, or pushed so hard they turned into abominations.  An innocent is an innocent, or it means nothing.

[Darian Tylmare]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You have to remember that almost everything we know about the Tevinter imperium is either via the Chantry, or elves. Needless to say, both absolutely hate the Tevinter Imperium.
The only positive guy they mention is Hessarian.

What I've seen thus far is that the Tevinter Imperium despite many many flaws, was an impressive civilization. Its imperial highways are still in use. It even had a whole bridge that stretched over the Waking sea (see map). In Awakening, we see their magical towers, which is pretty impressive.

I doubt all this could have been accomplished if you didn't have magisters who were at the very least sane.
And power mongering is not dependent on blood magic or magic. But they will be more effective at it, I'll grant that. Hence why I believe in supervising mages. But we don't know anything about how the Tevinter Imperium educated and trained their mages. They could have been very strict.

From what Fenris sister said I think the mages play a variant of the Orlesian "game". Everybody can become at least apprentice to an Archon and climb up the career laddder from there.
I don't doubt that not all of them are powerhungry lunatics, but since it's build after the byzantine empire, I assume that all of the impressive stuff could be build just to further the pride of a few men hunting for glory while using obscene amounts of slave labour.

[Shadow Wing]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

Its funny that you say "there are no innocents" then point fingers at the chantry for doing crimes and they should die for it. Based on your logic that "there are no innocents" and that people should die for their crimes, essentially everyone should just die since according to you "there are no innocents." 
It actually bothers me that you think lying is crime that deserves a death sentence but killing a lot of people is not crime but a righteus act. Seriously dude, if you actually believe what you just said then you better get your head checked, there is something seriously wrong with you. 
By the way, you know who had said an act is "righteous in every way" in the past thousand years? Insane religious leaders who had started wars and killed lots of people for it,,hmm,, looks like you have a lot in common with them.

[Pileyourbodies]

the bombing of dresden arguably was terrorism. The british resorted to terror bombing in after they were bombed but a state of war was in existance and with airplanes and bombs it can be expected for civilians to die. Tokyo was the same thing.

Meredith was doing her job, we don't know how many she made tranquil we know only of Arlik making a few tranquil. Anders was being a terrorist.

[bensmith91]

I always end up reading spoilers unintentionally, but I was glad I didn't know about this until it hit. It was quite the shock. I didn't like it, even though I was supporting the mages, but I kept Anders around because I needed a healer, and he was the guy I had specced for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darian Tylmare wrote...
From what Fenris sister said I think the mages play a variant of the Orlesian "game". Everybody can become at least apprentice to an Archon and climb up the career laddder from there.
I don't doubt that not all of them are powerhungry lunatics, but since it's build after the byzantine empire, I assume that all of the impressive stuff could be build just to further the pride of a few men hunting for glory while using obscene amounts of slave labour.

Even if that was the case, the Byzantine empire didn't have blood magic, did it. My point was, it's not the blood magic that made their system as it was. Any other system devoid of magic can have a similar system, or even worse.

That is not to dismiss the fact that a mage is potentially more dangerous than others. Or that a blood mage is potentially more dangerous than a mage. That I all agree with and I think supervision and training is necessary. But not Meredith style, she was pretty incompetent. 

[Sabariel]

Ninja Mage wrote...

Someone give Sabariel the right of Tranquility. She is a pride demon waiting to burst forth! She cannot be a risk for everyone here. An abomination in waiting so to speak

/Meredith

A pox on thee!

[sgriffin0810]

I agree with the notion that mages should be freed, and templars opposed violently if necessary, but believe that Anders actions are disastrous towards that cause. Despite having him as a LI I executed him after he destroyed the chantry. An injustice (or a series of them) does not justify the murder of innocents. Period.

[Darian Tylmare]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Even if that was the case, the Byzantine empire didn't have blood magic, did it. My point was, it's not the blood magic that made their system as it was. Any other system devoid of magic can have a similar system, or even worse.

That is not to dismiss the fact that a mage is potentially more dangerous than others. Or that a blood mage is potentially more dangerous than a mage. That I all agree with and I think supervision and training is necessary. But not Meredith style, she was pretty incompetent. 

I agree to your statement. I only want to add that in my oppinion blood magic has a greater power to destabilize states, because of it's tempting nature. And since all important people in the Empire are mages...

[LoveAsThouWilt]

When it comes to the Templars/Mages it appears to me that their really is no RIGHT or WRONG side in the matter. For me, the right side it to side with the mages, but thats just me and my need to aid the oppressed group. But in reality both sides have good points and the sad thing is, is that it shows that not always can there be a good outcome in situations. Tends to be a theme with this game actually.

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 16 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[Pileyourbodies]

The mages should be given more freedoms but not freed. They need the supervision and the ability to remove people like Meredith whom while i support her she was a bit extreme. The templars just lack oversight other than that they're fine.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

The system needs changed is all, not abolished altogether. A "church" should not be the one in control of it though. Beliefs systems cloud judgements and lead to even more superstitions than already exist.

[Sabariel]

Kerilus wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

It was not his fault alone but in the end he was the catalyst for the new war that Varric is talking about.
It wasn't solely his fault, but he destroyed every possibility of peaceful negotions along with the Kirkwall chantry.

I think both sides are too bitter for a peaceful solution. It might have started that way, but would have ended violently no matter who did what.

Not really, I for one had been working on a peaceful solution. And right before Anders detroyed the Chantry, Meredith did show some degree of empathy for the First Enchanter.

Like I said, it would have started peaceful, but I doubt it would have ended peacefully no matter who did what or who didn't do what.

[Alynna_tp]

I wonder, hypothetically speaking, would we all be as enraged if the Chantry had been empty of innocent people? If it was merely used as a symbol to incite rebellion in all other mages? These types of debates are always fascinating to read.

I'm not condoning what Anders did. I think he only helped the cause against the freedom of mages through his actions. The templars share some blame as well, making mages tranquil simply for speaking their minds. I'm not sure where the "right" solution could be found. The Grand Cleric might have cooled tempers for a time, but eventually, things would have exploded (sorry bad pun) one way or another.

[Pileyourbodies]

Is the church in a realm where there is magic and a confirmed afterlife that bad as leadership?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alynna_tp wrote...

I wonder, hypothetically speaking, would we all be as enraged if the Chantry had been empty of innocent people? If it was merely used as a symbol to incite rebellion in all other mages? These types of debates are always fascinating to read.

I think that would be the more interesting question.

I personally am not enraged by him, whether the Chantry was empty or not. I would however still consider him a reckless fool if it was empty. If he had a plan, something to work with other than "boom", I wouldn't have considered him as big of a fool (but argue that there might have been better options). But as it stands, Anders has practically no vision, and even if he had, no idea and plan how to put it in place. No following, so he really only represents himself. And no qualifications and previous merit (in addition to being a half-abomination himself) to qualify him to make such a decision for all mages.

It's easy to destroy and cry freedom while doing so. It's harder to actually build and establish a system with that coveted freedom. Like a child, Anders opted for the easy route, while being oblivious to the harder task. Expecting someone else to do it for him.

But I agree. Even if it can be solidly argued that Anders takes most of the blame (debatable I think), he is not solely to blame. And I sympathise a bit.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[sgriffin0810]

Alynna_tp wrote...

I wonder, hypothetically speaking, would we all be as enraged if the Chantry had been empty of innocent people? If it was merely used as a symbol to incite rebellion in all other mages? These types of debates are always fascinating to read.

I'm not condoning what Anders did. I think he only helped the cause against the freedom of mages through his actions. The templars share some blame as well, making mages tranquil simply for speaking their minds. I'm not sure where the "right" solution could be found. The Grand Cleric might have cooled tempers for a time, but eventually, things would have exploded (sorry bad pun) one way or another.

No, I wouldn't have opposed Anders if the chantry had been empty of innocents. Quite the contrary, I would have supported it. That would have been symbolic rather than murder.

[Pileyourbodies]

Even if the chantry was empty that explosion set half the town on fire!