1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Pathyan]

The thing is...I think Anders knew it was wrong but felt that all the posturing back and forth was getting nowhere, and in the mean time mages would suffer while the powers that be keep going in circles. In his mind, it's better to force a confrontation and have people die fighting then have them slowly exterminated while heads try to find a peacefull resolution that’s nowhere in sight.

Now I don't necessarily agree with his actions but I can see where he’s coming from. Innocents were already dieing, just on a smaller scale over a longer period of time. Definitely a hard choice to make and not one I’m sure I would make if I was in his shoes.

Modifié par Pathyan, 16 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Darian Tylmare]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


It's easy to destroy and cry freedom while doing so. It's harder to actually build and establish a system with that coveted freedom. Like a child, Anders opted for the easy route, while being oblivious to the harder task. Expecting someone else to do it for him.

This is right. Anders created a "now or never" situation without thinking about the consequences or the aftermath.
Once the dust would have settled, there would be no new established system, just a whole lot of dead people and a power vacuum after the Chantries downfall.
He never actually talks about a plan for what he will do once this is all over.

[Pileyourbodies]

Sabariel made a very good suggestion to me in our chat. Insted of locking them all up treat mages like they are on probation. quite a reasonable suggestion considering the dangers of mages but still allows them freedom

[Zambling]

I'm curious when the marker plays another part in DA series other than in origins with curing Arl Eamon (well Andraste). Everything was going fine in Kirkwall until Meredith became power hungry because of the Idol she constantly kept at her side.

In the end she probably would have wrongfully accused many citizens for blood magic and cause more death than what happened in the chantry, I believe this is the correct ending to tie into the third installment and very excited to get to know more about the seeker and Leliena's talk about Warden and champion after Varric's Tale.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel made a very good suggestion to me in our chat. Insted of locking them all up treat mages like they are on probation. quite a reasonable suggestion considering the dangers of mages but still allows them freedom

Well, not really. But.. close enough I guess ;;;;

Darian Tylmare wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


It's
easy to destroy and cry freedom while doing so. It's harder to actually
build and establish a system with that coveted freedom. Like a child,
Anders opted for the easy route, while being oblivious to the harder
task. Expecting someone else to do it for him.

This is right. Anders created a "now or never" situation without thinking about the consequences or the aftermath.
Once
the dust would have settled, there would be no new established system,
just a whole lot of dead people and a power vacuum after the Chantries
downfall.
He never actually talks about a plan for what he will do once this is all over.

They're saving that for DA3 [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Pathyan]

I'm playing devils advocate here, but how long do you wait for a peaceful resolution while your people are dying (and being tranquil is pretty much death) ?  I mean do you wait till half  of your population is gone? 3/4? When is enough, enough?

I don't think he took the easy road. Sitting on the fence waiting for something to happen is taking the easy road. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and the consequence that would result.

Modifié par Pathyan, 16 mars 2011 - 05:30 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Except not many actually died. More died in his act than would have died in a few years. Bethany was an apostate mage whom they captured and she was able to become orsinos right hand man so clearly the circle isn't as harsh as some people make it out to be.

[Darian Tylmare]

Sabariel wrote...

They're saving that for DA3 [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Probably. I'm looking forward at how this can be resolved. Will be interesting to see which solution becomes the new permanent one.

[Shadow Wing]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

The one thing I wanted to do all through DA:O and Anders does it for me. I was a little upset that I couldn't blow it up myself... but oh well, Anders and Me are best buddies! Admittely though I don't care about the plight of mages... I just hate the chantry and their damn choir boy sebastian.

I was very suprised when Cullen sided with me though. That came out of nowhere.

Hmmmm...very interesting, so you would kill a whole bunch of people irregardless if they had done wrong or not including the one person who was keeping peace in the city because you don't like their principles or you because they lie to you?

[Zambling]

I have a belief that the disappearance of the Hero of Fereldin and Champion of Kirkwall (The Seeker, Leliena's, and Varric's discussion at end of game) both tie into Morrigan and Flemoth. They both encounter them and last we know about the Warden is that he/she goes into the mirror with Morrigan.  We do know that there is a war going on or will happen in the future.

Im having a feeling that Hawke also encounters something along these lines in later DLC possibly with Merril and the mirror (my game glitched out so I couldn't see if she broke it, it just disappeared) Maybe go back into time to the Tevinter Imperium haha i have no clue but we will find out in later DLC.

Modifié par Zambling, 16 mars 2011 - 05:43 .

[Shadow Wing]

Pathyan wrote...

I'm playing devils advocate here, but how long do you wait for a peaceful resolution while your people are dying (and being tranquil is pretty much death) ?  I mean do you wait till half  of your population is gone? 3/4? When is enough, enough?

I don't think he took the easy road. Sitting on the fence waiting for something to happen is taking the easy road. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and the consequence that would result.

I understand his anger against the chantry and even his passion for killing templars but obviously he didn't know what he was doing. How would killing a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with what they are arguing about plus killing the only person who was keeping peace in the city be any good? I understand attacking a templar barrack even of i dont agree with it or trying to assassinate the templar commander but killing off people who didn't even want to be in the argument is just stupid. You alienate the only people who would probably been sympathetic to your cause and start a war, which I guess is what he is trying to do but he didn't think it through, what does he think is gonna happen, either they wiped out all the mages or the mages end up ruling the world. You end up in the exact same situation, mages are still feared and thanks to anders, also hated.

[Shadow Wing]

Pathyan wrote...

The thing is...I think Anders knew it was wrong but felt that all the posturing back and forth was getting nowhere, and in the mean time mages would suffer while the powers that be keep going in circles. In his mind, it's better to force a confrontation and have people die fighting then have them slowly exterminated while heads try to find a peacefull resolution that’s nowhere in sight.

Now I don't necessarily agree with his actions but I can see where he’s coming from. Innocents were already dieing, just on a smaller scale over a longer period of time. Definitely a hard choice to make and not one I’m sure I would make if I was in his shoes.

I know I won't make that decision, even if what he thinks is true that innocents are being killed just over a longer period, how does killing a lot more innocents over a shorter period actually helpful?

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Pathyan wrote...

I'm playing devils advocate here, but how long do you wait for a peaceful resolution while your people are dying (and being tranquil is pretty much death) ?  I mean do you wait till half  of your population is gone? 3/4? When is enough, enough?

I don't think he took the easy road. Sitting on the fence waiting for something to happen is taking the easy road. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and the consequence that would result.

I understand his anger against the chantry and even his passion for killing templars but obviously he didn't know what he was doing. How would killing a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with what they are arguing about plus killing the only person who was keeping peace in the city be any good? I understand attacking a templar barrack even of i dont agree with it or trying to assassinate the templar commander but killing off people who didn't even want to be in the argument is just stupid. You alienate the only people who would probably been sympathetic to your cause and start a war, which I guess is what he is trying to do but he didn't think it through, what does he think is gonna happen, either they wiped out all the mages or the mages end up ruling the world. You end up in the exact same situation, mages are still feared and thanks to anders, also hated.

Mages were feared and hated looooooooong before Anders came on the scene. Just saying... :innocent:

[Shadow Wing]

Veronica Ward wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Without anders eventually the Grand cleric would step in. Might take more time but less people would have died.

No she wouldn't. She was a terrible leader, look at how much action she took when her subordinates were running around the city inciting a riot. Even if she did eventually step up how many people would have been killed before she took action? Certainly more than were in the chanty when it went boom. 

But probably not more than the ensuing war that happen afterwards. The plan not only included the explosion but also the bloodbath the happen after.

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

Irving went his entire life without becoming an Abomination. Gee, how did that happen?

Darian Tylmare wrote...

What, you want me to say I pity them? Yes, I do!
But I will never say that even though I can unerstand their reasoning I will take the same actions.
Why, doing the wrong things for the right cause doesn'T make your actions (e.g. Anders) right.

I didn't say he was right. I just think it's silly to yell  "IT'S ALL ANDERS' FAULT!" Because, it's not. It's the Chantry, Circle,  templars, mages, and Anders' fault.

Its also silly to yell "Hail Anders!"

[Zambling]

Shadow Wing wrote...

I understand his anger against the chantry and even his passion for killing templars but obviously he didn't know what he was doing. How would killing a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with what they are arguing about plus killing the only person who was keeping peace in the city be any good? I understand attacking a templar barrack even of i dont agree with it or trying to assassinate the templar commander but killing off people who didn't even want to be in the argument is just stupid. You alienate the only people who would probably been sympathetic to your cause and start a war, which I guess is what he is trying to do but he didn't think it through, what does he think is gonna happen, either they wiped out all the mages or the mages end up ruling the world. You end up in the exact same situation, mages are still feared and thanks to anders, also hated.

well he did think it through because he wanted to be the one to cause something dramatic to show the circles in Thedas that mages can stand up to the Templars and not be submissed anymore by somewhat strict rules and tyrants (Meredith would become one over time and he knew that plus other circles in Thedas we dont know about) which clearly is showing at the end of Varric's tale of what is happening in all of Thedas between templars and mages. 

He is starting a revolution and my guess is that Hawke and Hero of Fereldin are going to be apart of.  I believe Flemoth and Morrigan being the cause of their disapearance.  I understand your argument but he was thinking for the future of Thedas and mages that are dabbling with blood magic in the circles because of Templars authority.  We'll have to see how it pans out but he was not a terrorist, he did it for the greater good of Thedas and future mages.  I wouldn't keep arguing about if it was right or not, its what is going to be present in the next game so you are not going to be able to change that with your views of Anders.  Think about the future, not the past.

Modifié par Zambling, 16 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[Shadow Wing]

lx_theo wrote...

It was needed. It was the only real way. No matter how horrible it is, its right, in a sense.

Funny thing is Templars could also argue that the "tranquil solution" is "the only real way. No matter how horrible it is, its right, in a sense."
The thing is as much as anders try to make himself as an enlightend martyr, he is exactly the same as the paranoid templars. Only on the other side.

[Magicman10893]

I found the situation really hard to judge. The Chantry and its Templars have the ability to declare the Right of Annulment and slaughter every Mage in a Circle, which is very wrong. The Chantry itself can call one of its Exalted Marches onto a place that doesn't agree with the Chantry's beliefs (remember the end of Origins when there was talk of an Exalted March on Orzammar because the Dwarf that believed in Andraste was killed?

The Circles are generally oppressive to Mages no matter where they are from. Kirkwall being the worst we have heard of, but the one in Fereldan is still pretty bad. I mean Anders spent how long just trying to escape from there? The fear of Mages is horrible and Chantry locking them away and taking them from their families and withholding them from society just makes everything worse.The Chantry is really corrupt in that sense, to me at least, and I feel that they need to be stopped somehow.

However, Anders approached the situation in a very horrible way. Blowing up the Chantry and killing many innocents and showing the entire world that the fears of Mages are justified. When people see that a Mage killed all the Chantry priests, they'll go nuts.

If there were a peaceful way to show the Chantry that Mages aren't that bad and that the Templars are one of the main reasons for abominations and malificarum with a reasonable argument and showing how Mages are a helpful part of society and how they are people too should have been the real course of action. Finding a peaceful way to prove that freedom of Mages won't turn out to be the next Tevinter Imperium. I mean, hell, we were on a fast path to proving that! In my game the Hero of Ferelden is a Mage and the Champion of Kirkwall is a Mage. That should be the first bit of proof that Mages aren't all bad and just need enough training to know how to resist demons.

If the Dragon Age series continued with a new region each game to save from dire events, then eventually every modern hero would be a Mage! As long as the events of the games are all close to each other there could potentially be a Mage as the ruler or hero of every country and province!

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

Irving went his entire life without becoming an Abomination. Gee, how did that happen?

Darian Tylmare wrote...

What, you want me to say I pity them? Yes, I do!
But I will never say that even though I can unerstand their reasoning I will take the same actions.
Why, doing the wrong things for the right cause doesn'T make your actions (e.g. Anders) right.

I didn't say he was right. I just think it's silly to yell  "IT'S ALL ANDERS' FAULT!" Because, it's not. It's the Chantry, Circle,  templars, mages, and Anders' fault.

Its also silly to yell "Hail Anders!"

Which you will never hear me yell. I killed Anders and sided with the Templars in my first play through. I plan to do the opposite in my current playthrough. Why? Because I don't think Anders' actions were right, but I understand why he did what he did and I don't think all the blame rests with him.

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

But those mages have been there since start of the game. They could be mages that failed their harrowing. From the first year you hear about the guy saying Orsino marks up the potions those mages are there from the start you don't hear about any more that are made. The mages that hate their lives there happen to be ones that were apostates! one of whom was always an evil bloodmage.

Mages who fail the Harrowing are killed, as in dead. They wouldn't be hanging around the Gallows. There are unhappy mages, not just apostates, from day one all over the game. Meredith was nuts before the idol. The idol just made her... nutsier.

I thought some mages that fail the harrowing were made tranquil? My mistake then. Meredith was not nuts, the Mages in kirkwall are the ones that are mad. Every demon you encounter was helped by a mage and you meet a lot of demons here. Sure the mages can be unhappy and when they complain they're supposed to go to orsino who takes it to Meredith. Orsino failed in his duties to be a voice for the mages, he does nothing at all till the 3rd act up till then Thrask is the voice of reason and he is a templar. The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages.

If you fail the Harrowing you become an Abomination and die because the templars cut your head off. If you refuse to take the Harrowing you're made Tranquil. It's a lose-lose situation from the start IMO.

"The templars are in the right here and are good people not the mages."

I'm sorry, but that is just silly. We see that there are "good" and "bad" people on both sides. Both sides added fuel to the fire. Both sides are to blame for what happened.

True, I agree, unfortunately its was Anders who had the power kill so many people at once.

[Ninja Mage]

But Anders did say it was " Worse than he thought it was going to be"

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

Irving went his entire life without becoming an Abomination. Gee, how did that happen?

Darian Tylmare wrote...

What, you want me to say I pity them? Yes, I do!
But I will never say that even though I can unerstand their reasoning I will take the same actions.
Why, doing the wrong things for the right cause doesn'T make your actions (e.g. Anders) right.

I didn't say he was right. I just think it's silly to yell  "IT'S ALL ANDERS' FAULT!" Because, it's not. It's the Chantry, Circle,  templars, mages, and Anders' fault.

Its also silly to yell "Hail Anders!"

Which you will never hear me yell. I killed Anders and sided with the Templars in my first play through. I plan to do the opposite in my current playthrough. Why? Because I don't think Anders' actions were right, but I understand why he did what he did and I don't think all the blame rests with him.

Not all blame should rest with him with the whole templar and mage dynamic, that is true, it is definitely not his fault. But the blame should be put on him for the blowing up the building. He had the ability to make a decision and unfortunately he chose the wrong one.

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

Pathyan wrote...

I'm playing devils advocate here, but how long do you wait for a peaceful resolution while your people are dying (and being tranquil is pretty much death) ?  I mean do you wait till half  of your population is gone? 3/4? When is enough, enough?

I don't think he took the easy road. Sitting on the fence waiting for something to happen is taking the easy road. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and the consequence that would result.

I understand his anger against the chantry and even his passion for killing templars but obviously he didn't know what he was doing. How would killing a whole bunch of people who had nothing to do with what they are arguing about plus killing the only person who was keeping peace in the city be any good? I understand attacking a templar barrack even of i dont agree with it or trying to assassinate the templar commander but killing off people who didn't even want to be in the argument is just stupid. You alienate the only people who would probably been sympathetic to your cause and start a war, which I guess is what he is trying to do but he didn't think it through, what does he think is gonna happen, either they wiped out all the mages or the mages end up ruling the world. You end up in the exact same situation, mages are still feared and thanks to anders, also hated.

Mages were feared and hated looooooooong before Anders came on the scene. Just saying... :innocent:

Yeah exactly, so how did anders actually change anything except that he killed a whole bunch of other people who really didn't want anything to do with the situation plus the ensuing battle that pretty much destroyed the city.

[Rocambole4]

That's what I like about the DA universe, it's not black and white. It was not absurd, and yet it was not RIGHT by any means.

[Zambling]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Not all blame should rest with him with the whole templar and mage dynamic, that is true, it is definitely not his fault. But the blame should be put on him for the blowing up the building. He had the ability to make a decision and unfortunately he chose the wrong one.

He actually chose the right one im not to sure what ending you chose or if you killed him.  He knew he was going to start a revolution when doing this act to show the Chantries of Thedas that they do not have their mages on leashes like they think they do with Templars authorities. 

He may contributed to an unofficial war that was happening since even before Origins between both parties and gave mages the determination and strength to unbind themselves from templars authority and rise up which is going to happen in the next dragon age.  Pay attention to the ending with Varric and the seeker and Leliena, they all want to find the warden or champion of kirkwall so they can control or stop the war that is happening right now but its too bad that they disapeared (hint hint Flemoth and Morrigan, hint...)