1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Yeah exactly, so how did anders actually change anything except that he killed a whole bunch of other people who really didn't want anything to do with the situation plus the ensuing battle that pretty much destroyed the city.

I'm going to quote another poster as my answer:

Maria Caliban wrote...

Indeed.

Merrill became
obsessed with a mirror. It probably would have been better if she'd
never thought about it, never talked to the demon, and never learned
blood magic.

Maybe.

I don't think the Dalish will
survive on the path they're taking. Humans and qunari will continue to
expand and take up more land. Their armies and nations will get bigger
and stronger while the Dalish dwindle and there are fewer places for
them to hide.

If they stand and fight, they die. If they continue to wander, they die.

I
don't blame Merrill for delving into the elven past. The future sucks
and she's probably wise enough to realize it. I think she's looking for a
miracle. Something that can help the Dalish survive and prosper instead
of plodding onto oblivion.

It's easy to see how horribly things turn out and say she was stupid for even trying.

However, we haven't seen the end.

It
reminds me of the Anvil of the Void. Branka was a horrible person, but
the result of her actions might be the salvation of the dwarves.

What
Anders did was wrong. It was pretty horrible. But what if the war
between the mages, templars, and chantry actually turns out to be a good
thing?

What Merrill did was wrong. But it meant she met the
Champion of Kirkwall. It gave her the type of power and experience most
Firsts never get. What if in the coming chaos, she's able to find that
miracle/opportunity and help her people?

In the long run, it's possible these horrible events lead to good things.

We haven't finished the story.

[Shadow Wing]

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Not really, well at least not according to the explanation Anders gave about the merge between justice and anders. Anders repeatedly said that justice does not control him, they are one or something to that extent meaning they have a commitee meeting of some sort before they do something, the way i see it, its all anders ideas and emotions but justice amplifies everything to an extreme.

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Not really, well at least not according to the explanation Anders gave about the merge between justice and anders. Anders repeatedly said that justice does not control him, they are one or something to that extent meaning they have a commitee meeting of some sort before they do something, the way i see it, its all anders ideas and emotions but justice amplifies everything to an extreme.

He seemed pretty hard-pressed to control "Justice" during his personal quest "Dissent". He only got a hold of himself because my Hawke threatened to slap him upside the head.

I think Anders is a bit in denial about how much control he has.

Modifié par Sabariel, 16 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

Yeah exactly, so how did anders actually change anything except that he killed a whole bunch of other people who really didn't want anything to do with the situation plus the ensuing battle that pretty much destroyed the city.

I'm going to quote another poster as my answer:

Maria Caliban wrote...

Indeed.

Merrill became
obsessed with a mirror. It probably would have been better if she'd
never thought about it, never talked to the demon, and never learned
blood magic.

Maybe.

I don't think the Dalish will
survive on the path they're taking. Humans and qunari will continue to
expand and take up more land. Their armies and nations will get bigger
and stronger while the Dalish dwindle and there are fewer places for
them to hide.

If they stand and fight, they die. If they continue to wander, they die.

I
don't blame Merrill for delving into the elven past. The future sucks
and she's probably wise enough to realize it. I think she's looking for a
miracle. Something that can help the Dalish survive and prosper instead
of plodding onto oblivion.

It's easy to see how horribly things turn out and say she was stupid for even trying.

However, we haven't seen the end.

It
reminds me of the Anvil of the Void. Branka was a horrible person, but
the result of her actions might be the salvation of the dwarves.

What
Anders did was wrong. It was pretty horrible. But what if the war
between the mages, templars, and chantry actually turns out to be a good
thing?

What Merrill did was wrong. But it meant she met the
Champion of Kirkwall. It gave her the type of power and experience most
Firsts never get. What if in the coming chaos, she's able to find that
miracle/opportunity and help her people?

In the long run, it's possible these horrible events lead to good things.

We haven't finished the story.

Yeah, its funny but you pretty much chose all the examples of characters I really dislike in DA so far:)
I never like branka, killed her everything single time. And you have to bring up Merril<_<. I actually forgot about her but yeah, thats another one, she was ok in the first game but boy how she changed. Heres the thing, all three of them had the same problem, they think they know better than others. They think they could control/overcome the obstacles that had prevented the usage of that method before. By the way, I can't believe you say that the massacre of the clan could be potentially beneficial because she ended up meeting the champion. I personally think whatever good comes from that would be kinda hollow considering she essentially killed off her family. Though I am interested now to see the reaction of my dalish hero of fereldan character when he finds out that merril pretty much cause the death of the clan.
Anyway, you're right, the story hasn't finished yet but if indeed somehow the story turns out that some good came from these rather selfish actions then I personally think that would be pretty hard to swallow. Cause essentially, you are saying that misguided horrible acts that cause so much death could be good and right. That would be pretty horrible.

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Not really, well at least not according to the explanation Anders gave about the merge between justice and anders. Anders repeatedly said that justice does not control him, they are one or something to that extent meaning they have a commitee meeting of some sort before they do something, the way i see it, its all anders ideas and emotions but justice amplifies everything to an extreme.

He seemed pretty hard-pressed to control "Justice" during his personal quest "Dissent". He only got a hold of himself because my Hawke threatened to slap him upside the head.

I think Anders is a bit in denial about how much control he has.

As I said, i'm basing it of what ander said, but on the other hand, I remember Justice from Awakening, and he wasn't like that either. He was always so worried about harming an "innocent" so I don't know if its really justice who is doing all the controlling or decision making.

[DarthSliver]

I believe Anders deserved to die for his actions. I hate the chantry just as much as the next person, but I aint going to go burn it down or destroy it. I believe the Mages do need to be watched but not as brutal as shown and any mage dipping in Blood Magic in my opinion deserves to be punished. I am actually against Blood Magic use but I am a reasonable person, so if a Blood Mage would turn from Blood Magic I would give that Mage a second chance. I do think some Mages can actually control Blood Magic without it controlling them, example id say is Merrill, but most cant so thats why it must stay Forbidden.
As for the Harrowing its not a pleasant thing but its good to be there so that Mages can prove they can truly resist demon temptation.
But back to Anders action, it did deserve death. I believe there couldve been a peaceful solution, look at Merediths talks with Alistar. I believe she was scorning him for trusting Mages or something, cant remember exactly. But its clear Feralden doesnt have a tight grip around their Mages like Kirkwall in the Free Marches.

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Not really, well at least not according to the explanation Anders gave about the merge between justice and anders. Anders repeatedly said that justice does not control him, they are one or something to that extent meaning they have a commitee meeting of some sort before they do something, the way i see it, its all anders ideas and emotions but justice amplifies everything to an extreme.

He seemed pretty hard-pressed to control "Justice" during his personal quest "Dissent". He only got a hold of himself because my Hawke threatened to slap him upside the head.

I think Anders is a bit in denial about how much control he has.

As I said, i'm basing it of what ander said, but on the other hand, I remember Justice from Awakening, and he wasn't like that either. He was always so worried about harming an "innocent" so I don't know if its really justice who is doing all the controlling or decision making.

Well, yeah. But if you base your assumptions on what Anders says and Anders is in denial he's not a reliable source of info.

Personally, because of what I saw, I think Anders is in denial about just how much control he has. As for Justice, he's not the same being anymore. He's been corrupted.

[Ninja Mage]

What if Merrill had destroyed the chantry to restore the Eluvian? Would you have killed her too?

[Zambling]

I can't wait for Dragon age 3 to come out so this constant commotion between who sided the templars and who sided the mages and which is the "correct" route that decides the next game.

I think its pretty clear what is the correct ending just like how the achievement in origins is A Dark Promise (through a dark ritual with morrigan spared your own life) which then turns to the dlc Witch Hunt which shows you where the Hero of Fereldin went and his possible disapearance in the next game.  This is also the case for the secret achievement in DA2:Conqueror, defeat Meredith. Its pretty clear guys and I already gave you a hint on what is and will most likely going to be happening in the next DA and the series (im sure DLC will show where Hawke went when DA3 comes sooner). In the next game we will most likely see the results of Anders decision and ultimately see why and the good it brings to Thedas in the future of the series.

Modifié par Zambling, 16 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[Shadow Wing]

Ninja Mage wrote...

What if Merrill had destroyed the chantry to restore the Eluvian? Would you have killed her too?

Oh yeah, definitely. Number 1 restoring the Eluvian was bad idea from the start. But yeah, merril was another character who thought that she knows better than other. Funny thing about merril, for all her passion for finding elven lore (which is not a bad thing as long as done carefully) she disregards a lot of what the keeper says who probably knows quite a bit about elven lore.

[Shadow Wing]

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Shadow Wing wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Not really, well at least not according to the explanation Anders gave about the merge between justice and anders. Anders repeatedly said that justice does not control him, they are one or something to that extent meaning they have a commitee meeting of some sort before they do something, the way i see it, its all anders ideas and emotions but justice amplifies everything to an extreme.

He seemed pretty hard-pressed to control "Justice" during his personal quest "Dissent". He only got a hold of himself because my Hawke threatened to slap him upside the head.

I think Anders is a bit in denial about how much control he has.

As I said, i'm basing it of what ander said, but on the other hand, I remember Justice from Awakening, and he wasn't like that either. He was always so worried about harming an "innocent" so I don't know if its really justice who is doing all the controlling or decision making.

Well, yeah. But if you base your assumptions on what Anders says and Anders is in denial he's not a reliable source of info.

Personally, because of what I saw, I think Anders is in denial about just how much control he has. As for Justice, he's not the same being anymore. He's been corrupted.

Yeah, by Anders:P kidding...but hey that could be a possibility,

[Sabariel]

Shadow Wing wrote...
Yeah, by Anders:P kidding...but hey that could be a possibility,

Well... yeah. Anders' anger at the Circle corrupted Justice and now he is Vengeance. Now Anders' is being corrupted right back by Vengeance and his control is slipping. At least that's what I understood from both Anders' official bio and what I saw in the game.

[TheRevanchist]

You guys DO realize that killing off her whole clan can be avoided right? I manged to avoid it by taking responsibility...they let me take her away without any bloodshed at all. I personaly think she was a fool and was wrong...and I think Merethari was wrong to take that punishment for her...but I wasn't about to let the massacre of ANOTHER Dalish clan "sided with the wolves in the import" get massacred over it. They were right to fear her...she risked the safety of the clan for her own selfishness.

[Lithuasil]

Anders doing what he did was glorious in any case (and hey, he survived two of my three playthroughs)
It felt like he got off the hook a little easy though - I would've preferred to have to actively defend him against meredith, rather then everyone just being "Hey hawke, if you need us, we'll be at the gallows, having a party, there'll be lots of fireworks, might wanna check out yo"

[Shadow Wing]

Lithuasil wrote...

Anders doing what he did was glorious in any case (and hey, he survived two of my three playthroughs)
It felt like he got off the hook a little easy though - I would've preferred to have to actively defend him against meredith, rather then everyone just being "Hey hawke, if you need us, we'll be at the gallows, having a party, there'll be lots of fireworks, might wanna check out yo"

Not sure I understand, are you saying that anders blowing up the building and killing of a whole lot of people while insuring that war occurs is glorious?

[Lithuasil]

Shadow Wing wrote...




Not sure I understand, are you saying that anders blowing up the building and killing of a whole lot of people while insuring that war occurs is glorious?

Pretty much - it's this kind of morally gray in gray "everyone looses in the end" conflict, that creates the most dramatic, most human stories, hence why both the author and the roleplayer inside me were very much delighted about such a change of events.
Here's me hoping that DA3's enemies will be whatever people believe in the cause you didn't pick as yours, rather then some kind of boring all evil all the time Archdemon. Fighting pure evil in a can is always boring - fighting humans, who's causes and fates you might relate to, on an individual basis, that's fun.

[lost lupus]

as i said before he blew it up to start a war, not some idealistic view how this will send a message/make everybody be nice to mages.

it was simply done to ensure that a war against mages would start he forced the hand of the chantry and forced the hand of mages

was it wrong? absolutely! was it necessary? Anders thought so.

Modifié par lost lupus, 16 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[Babi]

 While I feel like Anders could have used such a wonderful beam of death in a more practical manner, I think that he's probably going to be of more use alive rather than dead. The "innocent" people in the chantry are dispensable, IMO. They're all the same kind of mindless oafs that preach selflessness and doing good for the reward of going to heaven. Killing Anders out of pity for the "innocent" people he killed isn't going to undo what he did. They're dead, and they're not coming back, (unless they're Flemmeth, of course...). Privately executing him isn't going to show the world, "Hey, here's the guy that is responsible, and he's getting punished!" Having him linger about to use him as a scapegoat or sacrificial lamb later... practical purpose. Seeing that Loghain became an asset once you find out a Warden needs to die to kill the Archdemon, it wouldn't be too far out there to assume Anders might be useful later. Killing him on the spot serves no purpose other than to entertain the idea that justice was served or to soothe your ever troubled emotions.
Regardless of what stance you take on the situation, think for a moment that you kill hundreds of people throughout the game. Probably many, many more than Anders killed with his death beam. The people you kill might attack you first, but think of them less as groups and more as individuals-- what if x mercenary was attacking you with the group because he/she had no other means of obtaining food or shelter. Desperate times, desperate measures, right? Would such a person be truly evil, and deserving of death? Hawke him or herself is forced into being a mercenary or smuggler for a year, like those very people you slaughter in countless numbers.

Say that y person has the resources necessary to save people from any sort of political suffering, but then refuses to do so to maintain an illusion of "neutrality". What then? Are they not as bad as those random mercenaries or thugs that attack you to survive, or whatever reason you can imagine? They stand idly for no real reason. It's not like they risk the ire of the templars. Meredith could have potentially been exposed as a nut-job sooner. 

Being grotesquely realistic, anybody could have murdered Leandra and cut her up into pieces. Re-animate her? Mage only, sure, but anyone with the strength and/or resources can gut someone and reassemble the pieces. Horrific murders happen all the time IRL and there is no such thing as "blood magic" to blame. 

In the end, no character in the game is truly good or truly evil. People do things because they think they will be rewarded in one way or another. Chantry people do good acts with the idea they are going to be rewarded by the Maker. Mercs and smugglers do what they do for more immediate rewards, such as gold or loot. It's all for personal gain, one way or another. If you say that the acts of the chantry help people, well, what if a merc is trying to feed his or her starving family? 

What is the real difference between what Anders did vs using an AoE on a group of "red targets" that have not definitely proven their villiany?

[hawat333]

He did indeed the right thing - but the price was the life of innocents. Considering this, it was an unforgivable sin. Not better, but even worse than the Templars doing, and I say it on my mage main character. Noble goals, groveling measures.
I know there's no black and white things, not in the real world, and not in this game.

It wasn't really right or wrong. It all depends on the viewpoint. Which is a great thing, I guess it will be a polarizing act.

[Windkun]

I FN love Anders in DA2, Loved him in awakenings being all innocent with Ser Pounce Alot.. but oh man, I dig the changes they made to make him an unstable bad-ass.

[JulianoV]

The Templars are needed, else Blood Mages become common ground and kill everyone on sight to nurture their hunger for power. However, as it is, the Order is completely dysfunctional and inhumane in its fundamentals.

They are important and indispensable, for they arethe only thing preventing another Imperium. What they should be , however, is an invesstigative/repressive police force. As it is, they are police, judge and enforcer. Closing your ears and saying they are all good and a necessary evil doesn't make it any less insulting to the notion of basic human rights and due process.

Since apparantely siding with the mages is criminal and moronic, siding with the templars is fascist and lombrosian. I'll keep both ending choices, since neither position appeases me, to be honest.

[LeoAlbus]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Way to rip out a small part of my argument and attacking it, without seeing it as a whole, and thus missing the point completely.

Well it wasn't exactly expressed as a minor or drive-by sentiment, but rather the contenta of your OP. As such, I replied to what you had expressed. Your further elaborations and rephrasements of your point were not contained therein.
Therefore you can hardly fault me for taking you on your words, which you made quite clear.

Do you deny that the state of the world is what it is, not based only on our actions but also our inaction? And that doing nothing sometimes is worse than doing something "bad"?

Do I deny that the state of the world is what it is? Odd question as so, since it hasn't been qualified of what "what is" would entail. There are many views about the state of "what is", it's not a "state of being" on its own.

Naturally action as well as inaction influences that which is, and rephraining from doing "something" isn't by default a negative or positive action.

[Makeshift Riot]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except every mage IS a super dangerous abomination waiting to happen. Bring merrill and Anders into the fade with you next game. They can both be tempted by the demons quite easily.

I've taken Anders in to the fade every single time I've played. He's the only one that hasn't turned on me. He's already possesed, like Wynn, they would have nothing to gain from a deal.

Modifié par Makeshift Riot, 16 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[Dangerfoot]

The Chantry, just like real world religions, is filled with people that want to help make the world a better place in whatever way they can. I'm not saying that religious people are morally superior, I'm an atheist myself, but they do serve a purpose to their communities. They function as social networks for villagers, charities for the underprivileged, and they set up a belief system that influences people to be good to others when they might not have cared otherwise.

To relegate all religion to some kind of a virus, taking over the world, is just absurd and paranoid.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, the potential and likely harm of one mage being a dangerous abomination tends to outweigh the potential and likely harm of one templar being an oppressive jackass.

"The Tranquil Solution" begs to differ.

Not really: the Tranquil Solution Templar was a case of an institution, and the strength of a number, being misused and taken advantage of. The Tranquil Solution wasn't the work of single, solitary Templars: it was (sadly) taking advantage of an institution to harm individuals.

Yes, institutions of non magicals run amuck can do harm approaching individual mages run amuck... but it requires the organization, and the breakdown of controls. When an equivalent number of magi are organized, they've proven able to do so much more damage that even that.