1411 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

Vilegrim wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

You claim what Anders does it right because he is convinced and firmly believes he is right...but the Chantry isn't allowed to have this same mind-set? their not allowed to think they are right? There ARE people in the Chantry who actually believe what they say and truly think they are right. Does that make them anymore right or wrong then Anders? who is basicly the same? I don't think so.

The Chantry: Brutally and savagly enslaving entire groups of people, obliterating non-human cultures, leading blood drenched inquisitions and purges against any dissent.  Anders: doing whats necessary to stop the slaughter.  Basically the chantry are as bad as the blight and need to be stopped.

From their mind-set it's not "slavery"...they don't force the Mages to serve them tea or burn Lyrium into their skin to please their peers. FENRIS was a slave...and his life was drasticly worse then that of the Mages. The Chantry hates Tevinter for their slavery...The Chantry is protecting mages from people as well as protecting people from Mages...because as this game shows...Mages will stop at nothing to get what they want. They will summon demons in the streets by the dozens to achive their goals and forget any innocent in the cross fire. Mages clearly don't give a damn about hurting innocent people as long as they get what they want. The Ferelden Circle was probably one the nicest places in the game...those Templars are anything but horrific slave masters they were simply doing their job of remaining vigilient, and Traquilized those suspected of Blood Magic...which is exactly what their suppose to do. The Templars are not souless heartless monsters who spit on mages and laugh gleefully, they are an organization that protects and serves for the greater good. Meredith and Alrik were really the only two Templars who were monsters and they were delt with. The rest of the Templars...even CULLEN of all people...know what they was doing is wrong...and defy Merediths orders to ensure the innocent mages are not destroyed because they protect as well as guard.

"Obliterating none human cultures". The Qunari? A group of fanatics who conqer and destroy all in their path in the name of their way of life who destroy anyone who does not submit to their ways? The Elves? We know absolutly nothing about that situation...for all we know The Elves brought it upon themselves since in their eyes absolutly NOTHING is their own damn fault and everyone else is responsible for their problems. I'm personaly sick of the elves and their "poor us we lost everything when we didn't do anything" crap. How do we know they are innocent and complately free of blame for the Exaulted Marches of The Dales? We do not...we know nothing about why that happend and to cast the Chantry in the light of monsters for it is ill-placed until we know WHY that happend.

Anders does whats nessasary to stop slaughter? His actions have created more slaughter then there as ever been since the the system of the Circle has exsisted. Aside from that...Mages were not always locked away in those towers...they once were indeed free to roam the world. They chose to lock themselves away in the Grand Cathedral in protest because they didn't like their situation and because they wanted to be left alone from the critisisim of the masses. So the system of the Circle was created to protect the mages so they would learn magic safely away from the distrustful masses and to protect the masses from the dangerous powers of magic. The situation in Kirkwall is the exception in regards to Templars treatment...not the rule. To me your entire post just reeks of biased opinion filled with wrong information in a feeble attempt to demonize an organization who in reality isn't that evil.

[Pileyourbodies]

Kyle that was a wonderful explanation. You should have pointed out that first enchanter orsino, the highest ranked mage in kirkwall is an Elf.

[AlexXIV]

So I have just finished a playthrough and sided with the mages and Anders. I don't support what he did, it was sort of an act of terrorism. But I think this is now my canon playthrough. For once my Hawke is not a mage so siding with mages does have more meaning. That mages side with mages is sort of to be expected.

But there are also other reasons.

The Grand Cleric was the most powerful and at the same time most useless person of the whole game. She neither supported Meredith nor did she stop her. She could probably have prevented alot of bad things if she did anything other than waiting for eternity.

Kirkwall is a mage prison. The templars are the ones in power, for decades. The mages have always been the victims. If you side with the templars you support the 'old ways' and change nothing. Even the title 'Viscount' is kinda meanless in a city that is ruled by templars. And the Hawkes are traditionally a family of apostates.

Anders/justice acted the way he did not because out of greed or any low motivations. He knew a sacrifice was necessary to give an example and send a message to all Circles. Which worked. Innocents died, but the Grand Cleric herself said it, even in the Exalted Marches innocents die. And probably also in Andrastae's war against the Tevinters.

Meredith was the main reason why everything went so bad. The bloodmages may have had their part, but many mages only turned to bloodmagic as an act of desperation. It was foolish, but understandable. If the templars or Cullen had stood up against Meredith sooner, maybe with the help of the Grand Cleric, everything could have been prevented. Maybe even mom Hawke's death. I know a bloodmage did it, and the first enchanter covered it. But the templars were the ones who started everything. Their pressure on the mages led to desperate actions of the mages. Would they have had a glimpse of honor, like in the end, nothing of it would have had to happen.

Finally Bioware seems to try too hard pushing the player in a pro-templar direction. Mages keep betraying, killing your family, etc. Probably aiming the player to lose objectivity. That's kind of low and I simply chose to not be influenced by one sided story telling in this way.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[TheRevanchist]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Kyle that was a wonderful explanation. You should have pointed out that first enchanter orsino, the highest ranked mage in kirkwall is an Elf.

Indeed but I feel the point was made and there was no need for it.

[TJPags]

kylecouch wrote...

From their mind-set it's not "slavery"...they don't force the Mages to serve them tea or burn Lyrium into their skin to please their peers. FENRIS was a slave...and his life was drasticly worse then that of the Mages. The Chantry hates Tevinter for their slavery...The Chantry is protecting mages from people as well as protecting people from Mages...because as this game shows...Mages will stop at nothing to get what they want. They will summon demons in the streets by the dozens to achive their goals and forget any innocent in the cross fire. Mages clearly don't give a damn about hurting innocent people as long as they get what they want. The Ferelden Circle was probably one the nicest places in the game...those Templars are anything but horrific slave masters they were simply doing their job of remaining vigilient, and Traquilized those suspected of Blood Magic...which is exactly what their suppose to do. The Templars are not souless heartless monsters who spit on mages and laugh gleefully, they are an organization that protects and serves for the greater good. Meredith and Alrik were really the only two Templars who were monsters and they were delt with. The rest of the Templars...even CULLEN of all people...know what they was doing is wrong...and defy Merediths orders to ensure the innocent mages are not destroyed because they protect as well as guard.

"Obliterating none human cultures". The Qunari? A group of fanatics who conqer and destroy all in their path in the name of their way of life who destroy anyone who does not submit to their ways? The Elves? We know absolutly nothing about that situation...for all we know The Elves brought it upon themselves since in their eyes absolutly NOTHING is their own damn fault and everyone else is responsible for their problems. I'm personaly sick of the elves and their "poor us we lost everything when we didn't do anything" crap. How do we know they are innocent and complately free of blame for the Exaulted Marches of The Dales? We do not...we know nothing about why that happend and to cast the Chantry in the light of monsters for it is ill-placed until we know WHY that happend.

Anders does whats nessasary to stop slaughter? His actions have created more slaughter then there as ever been since the the system of the Circle has exsisted. Aside from that...Mages were not always locked away in those towers...they once were indeed free to roam the world. They chose to lock themselves away in the Grand Cathedral in protest because they didn't like their situation and because they wanted to be left alone from the critisisim of the masses. So the system of the Circle was created to protect the mages so they would learn magic safely away from the distrustful masses and to protect the masses from the dangerous powers of magic. The situation in Kirkwall is the exception in regards to Templars treatment...not the rule. To me your entire post just reeks of biased opinion filled with wrong information in a feeble attempt to demonize an organization who in reality isn't that evil.

This is beauty right here.

So very well said.  Excellent.

[TheRevanchist]

AlexXIV wrote...

So I have just finished a playthrough and sided with the mages and Anders. I don't support what he did, it was sort of an act of terrorism. But I think this is now my canon playthrough. For once my Hawke is not a mage so siding with mages does have more meaning. That mages side with mages is sort of to be expected.

But there are also other reasons.

The Grand Cleric was the most powerful and at the same time most useless person of the whole game. She neither supported Meredith nor did she stop her. She could probably have prevented alot of bad things if she did anything other than waiting for eternity.

Kirkwall is a mage prison. The templars are the ones in power, for decades. The mages have always been the victims. If you side with the templars you support the 'old ways' and change nothing. Even the title 'Viscount' is kinda meanless in a city that is ruled by templars. And the Hawkes are traditionally a family of apostates.

Anders/justice acted the way he did not because out of greed or any low motivations. He knew a sacrifice was necessary to give an example and send a message to all Circles. Which worked. Innocents died, but the Grand Cleric herself said it, even in the Exalted Marches innocents die. And probably also in Andrastae's war against the Tevinters.

Meredith was the main reason why everything went so bad. The bloodmages may have had their part, but many mages only turned to bloodmagic as an act of desperation. It was foolish, but understandable. If the templars or Cullen had stood up against Meredith sooner, maybe with the help of the Grand Cleric, everything could have been prevented. Maybe even mom Hawke's death. I know a bloodmage did it, and the first enchanter covered it. But the templars were the ones who started everything. Their pressure on the mages lead to desperate actions of the mages. Would they have had a glimpse of honor, like in the end, nothing of it would have had to happen.

Finally Bioware seems to try too hard pushing the player in a pro-templar direction. Mages keep betraying, killing your family, etc. Probably aiming the player to lose objectivity. That's kind of low and I simply chose to not be influenced by one sided story telling in this way.

I'm tierd of saying this...but "desperation" is not a good enough excuse...it is not a Get Out of Jail Free Card like you people want it to be. It is just ****** poor reasoning in an attempt to justify killing people. Aside from that when the Gran Claric told Meredith to calm down in the court-yard Meredith looked like she was going to impale her right there...whos to say she wouldn't have have murdered her had she sided against her, and since Elthina feels pity for the mages she obviously would not side with the Templars.

[Pileyourbodies]

Crimes of Passion and Crimes of Desperation are still crimes.

[AlexXIV]

kylecouch wrote...

I'm tierd of saying this...but "desperation" is not a good enough excuse...it is not a Get Out of Jail Free Card like you people want it to be. It is just ****** poor reasoning in an attempt to justify killing people. Aside from that when the Gran Claric told Meredith to calm down in the court-yard Meredith looked like she was going to impale her right there...whos to say she wouldn't have have murdered her had she sided against her, and since Elthina feels pity for the mages she obviously would not side with the Templars.

Desperation is not a good enough excuse to kill people. I guess that's why Spartacus is such a hated figure of history. Sorry but if people don't respect your right as a human being then you don't need to respect theirs. This may make you no better than them, but surely not worse. And if you're tired go to bed or something. This is a discussion and people will disagree. And they won't stop defending their beliefs just because you are getting tired.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 02:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Kyle.
I take an issue at you saying "mages do this, mages do that". It would be mroe accurate to say "some mages do this", or even "a lot of mages do this".

Might be nit-picking, but still. The difference should be remembered.

kylecouch wrote...
"Obliterating none human cultures". The Qunari? A group of fanatics who conqer and destroy all in their path in the name of their way of life who destroy anyone who does not submit to their ways?

And yet this is what DA2 had to say about the war:

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll on the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew"

Taken from The Exlated Marches: An Exmanination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar. 

The Qunari would rather withdraw, than witness the Chantry massacre people.

So let's not oversimplify.

I share your position, vis a vis opposing those who also simplify the Chantry and dismiss it as "evil" and whatever else. Taking the other extreme view though, imo, takes away the nuance and is just as simplistic.

[Veronica Ward]

kylecouch wrote...

From their mind-set it's not "slavery"...they don't force the Mages to serve them tea or burn Lyrium into their skin to please their peers. FENRIS was a slave...and his life was drasticly worse then that of the Mages. The Chantry hates Tevinter for their slavery...The Chantry is protecting mages from people as well as protecting people from Mages...because as this game shows...Mages will stop at nothing to get what they want. They will summon demons in the streets by the dozens to achive their goals and forget any innocent in the cross fire. Mages clearly don't give a damn about hurting innocent people as long as they get what they want. The Ferelden Circle was probably one the nicest places in the game...those Templars are anything but horrific slave masters they were simply doing their job of remaining vigilient, and Traquilized those suspected of Blood Magic...which is exactly what their suppose to do. The Templars are not souless heartless monsters who spit on mages and laugh gleefully, they are an organization that protects and serves for the greater good. Meredith and Alrik were really the only two Templars who were monsters and they were delt with. The rest of the Templars...even CULLEN of all people...know what they was doing is wrong...and defy Merediths orders to ensure the innocent mages are not destroyed because they protect as well as guard.

They take you when you are a child no mattee what your parents want. You either face a challenge that ends in your death or face having your "soul" killed baised on an executive decision by some one. So if you make the wrong person angry you become tranquil and hock trinkets for the Chantry. May not be "slavery" but it certainly is not freedom. Also, why the hell would I care what my oppressors define as "slavery"? Templars and the Chantry clearly don't give a damn about hurting innocent people as long as they get what they want.

"Obliterating none human cultures". The Qunari? A group of fanatics who conqer and destroy all in their path in the name of their way of life who destroy anyone who does not submit to their ways? The Elves? We know absolutly nothing about that situation...for all we know The Elves brought it upon themselves since in their eyes absolutly NOTHING is their own damn fault and everyone else is responsible for their problems. I'm personaly sick of the elves and their "poor us we lost everything when we didn't do anything" crap. How do we know they are innocent and complately free of blame for the Exaulted Marches of The Dales? We do not...we know nothing about why that happend and to cast the Chantry in the light of monsters for it is ill-placed until we know WHY that happend.

The Chantry poked the Quinari in Kirwall with a stick untill thw Quinari poked back. Grand Cleric turned a blind eye to her subordonate doing this poking for YEARS. Wonder why they attacked. I am not going to say they were faultless in this, because they were pretty douchey from the get-go.
The Exalted march on the elves happened because when they got thier freedom and their own homeland they went back to wqorshiping their own gods. So they weren't using their freedom in a way that the chantry approved of. . . and you just don't do that. If you do they kill you and stuff you into a ghetto where you are barely a person, let alone a citizen. The elves have every right to be mad, humanity has done nothing but feed them excrement while laughing at them for centuries it seems.

Anders does whats nessasary to stop slaughter? His actions have created more slaughter then there as ever been since the the system of the Circle has exsisted. Aside from that...Mages were not always locked away in those towers...they once were indeed free to roam the world. They chose to lock themselves away in the Grand Cathedral in protest because they didn't like their situation and because they wanted to be left alone from the critisisim of the masses. So the system of the Circle was created to protect the mages so they would learn magic safely away from the distrustful masses and to protect the masses from the dangerous powers of magic. The situation in Kirkwall is the exception in regards to Templars treatment...not the rule. To me your entire post just reeks of biased opinion filled with wrong information in a feeble attempt to demonize an organization who in reality isn't that evil.

He didn't want to stop slaughter. He wanted to force people to pick a side and to free his people from their bondage. They locked themselves away in the Chantry because not picking a side benefited them and they could spin it with what ever side came out on top. Anders kinda removed that option. Go Anders! The chantry is not completely evil, but most of the things they do seem to be evil to me.

[Ariella]

vigna wrote...


But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

If you take Oghren along for the Ashes quest, there's something he says that casts doubt on the whole "Maker blessed" angle, and for the record Eamon was dying from a nonmagical poison.

The problem is the Chantry in a lot of ways has been corrrupted by the world. It looks good on paper but human nature just doesn't work that way, and while the head of the chantry was a nice lady, she was the worst kind of fence sitter, she made Jimmy Carter look desicisive. She did nothing to lessen the plight of mages nor reign in Patrice or Meredith until it was to late (and we should remember that Meredith wasn't just taking her insanity out on mages by act three, but templars, and the commons too). She should have been recalled and replaced long before this.

By act three Meredith also should have been recalled in a logical world since her OWN people were turning against her. When subordinates help their commander shoot him/herself in the foot, that commander is less that useless.

Should Anders' have done what he did, no, but at the same time I can understand his doing. In fact, when he was in the Chantry my stomach dropped out because I KNEW he was doing something I wasn't going to like. Hell, sela petre (salt peter) should have been the first clue.

As for lying, my Hawke was in a romance with Anders, and I know why he lied. To protect Hawke, because if she didn't know not only could she not stop him, she could disavow him, and that would keep her safe. I also get the feeling that Anders thought Hawke could be the one to stop Meredith and lead the mages to freedom, add to the fact that they were trying for a Buffy-Angel-esque cursed romance angle, I say that it worked perfectly. Anders did remind me of Angel, though thankfully Justice not so much as Angelus.

I also wouldn't classify him as an abomination. Anders' personality is still in the forefront and Justice can be talked down. An abomination couldn't. Anders, for all the bombing and everything else still had humanity at the end of it all. He didn't like himself much or his solution if you listen to his banter in act three, but he believes it is the only way to break the stalemate.

It's another one of these things like was Loghain right in his betray of Calian? And, if I may point out, any game that can spark such passionate philisophical debate can't be considered non-cerebral or a "fail"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Veronica Ward wrote...
The Exalted march on the elves happened because when they got thier freedom and their own homeland they went back to wqorshiping their own gods. So they weren't using their freedom in a way that the chantry approved of. . . and you just don't do that. If you do they kill you and stuff you into a ghetto where you are barely a person, let alone a citizen. The elves have every right to be mad, humanity has done nothing but feed them excrement while laughing at them for centuries it seems.

This is not accurate.

During the 2nd blight, humans requested assistance from the elves, but they refused and just watched nearby human settlements die. That can be one of the source of resentment.

As for the 2nd Exalted March itself. The Chantry claims that the elves murdered missionaries and raided human villages. The elves claim that the Chantry sent missionaries and harassed them. the Chantry claims it was the elves who initiated the war. Both stories are not necessarily mutually exclusive and both rethoric were certainly embellished. But neither are flautless here.

If you look at the war itself however, it was initially an Orlesian - Dalish war, and it was clearly the elves who were on the offensive. They sacked Montsimmard. It was only after this destruction, that Orlais called for an Exalted March. Then the elves got clamped down.

My point is, let's not completely victimize the elves here and villanize the Chantry. The elves were not blameless at all, both in their conduct during the war and before. It's easy for losers to claim to be victims. What would they have done if they won? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 02:14 .

[TheRevanchist]

AlexXIV wrote...

Desperation is not a good enough excuse to kill people. I guess that's why Spartacus is such a hated figure of history. Sorry but if people don't respect your right as a human being then you don't need to respect theirs. This may make you no better than them, but surely not worse. And if you're tired go to bed or something. This is a discussion and people will disagree. And they won't stop defending their believes just because you are getting tired.

Spartacus actually WAS a slave...the Mages are not slaves they simply hate their situation...a situation they placed themselves into long ago because they hated being free and faced with endless suspistion from the masses. Sorry but the Mages reasons do not justify their course of action. Desperation does not magicly make it ok to use forbidden and evil magic. They kept screaming how the Templars were wrong and that not all Mages use blood magic. Yet they turn around and use blood magic because are "desperate" as you people put it, and accomplish nothing except proveing the Templars right. Hell if you side with the Mages you end up killing more Mages then Templars...CLEARLY you made the right choice. Then Orsino turns to blood magic simply because Meredith already assumes they all do...only proveing her right further. He then goes and attacks YOU...the one who SIDED WITH HIM. Lets not forget he allowed the Kirkwall Killer to do all those horrible things and kill innocents just because he found his reasearch interesting. 

Most Circles treat Mages fairly well...Kirkwall is the EXCEPTION...NOT THE RULE. The argument of "desperation" is the most ridiculus argument I've seen for this since the Mages brought themselves into that situation in the first place. The only argument more ridiculus then this is spareing Anders just becuase you romance him.    

[Pileyourbodies]

If rome still existed he would be hated. Also if slavery was still 'in' he'd be hatred.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Kyle.
I take an issue at you saying "mages do this, mages do that". It would be mroe accurate to say "some mages do this", or even "a lot of mages do this".

Might be nit-picking, but still. The difference should be remembered.

kylecouch wrote...
"Obliterating none human cultures". The Qunari? A group of fanatics who conqer and destroy all in their path in the name of their way of life who destroy anyone who does not submit to their ways?

And yet this is what DA2 had to say about the war:

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll on the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew"

Taken from The Exlated Marches: An Exmanination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar. 

The Qunari would rather withdraw, than witness the Chantry massacre people.

So let's not oversimplify.

I share your position, vis a vis opposing those who also simplify the Chantry and dismiss it as "evil" and whatever else. Taking the other extreme view though, imo, takes away the nuance and is just as simplistic.

Rivain converted to the Qun...they are Qunari as far as they are concerned so of course they care about their well being. They do not, however, care about the well being of innocents outside the Qun.

[Veronica Ward]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Veronica Ward wrote...
The Exalted march on the elves happened because when they got thier freedom and their own homeland they went back to wqorshiping their own gods. So they weren't using their freedom in a way that the chantry approved of. . . and you just don't do that. If you do they kill you and stuff you into a ghetto where you are barely a person, let alone a citizen. The elves have every right to be mad, humanity has done nothing but feed them excrement while laughing at them for centuries it seems.

This is not accurate.

During the 2nd blight, humans requested assistance from the elves, but they refused and just watched nearby human settlements die. That can be one of the source of resentment.

As for the 2nd Exalted March itself. The Chantry claims that the elves murdered missionaries and raided human villages. The elves claim that the Chantry sent missionaries and harassed them. the Chantry claims it was the elves who initiated the war. Both stories are not necessarily mutually exclusive and both rethoric were certainly embellished. But neither are flautless here.

If you look at the war itself however, it was initially an Orlesian - Dalish war, and it was clearly the elves who were on the offensive. They sacked Montsimmard. It was only after this destruction, that Orlais called for an Exalted March. Then the elves got clamped down.

My point is, let's not completely victimize the elves here and villanize the Chantry. The elves were not blameless at all, both in their conduct during the war and before. It's easy for losers to claim to be victims. What would they have done if they won? 

It's been a long time since I played DA:O. Woops

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
Rivain converted to the Qun...they are Qunari as far as they are concerned so of course they care about their well being. They do not, however, care about the well being of innocents outside the Qun.

And the Chantry does? They didn't mind massacring the people of Rivain, even though it served no military purpose, unless they were betting on terrorizing the Qunari. 
And we know that they were very active later to root out all the humans who converted to the Qun, which were a lot more numerous than they expected.

So let's not generalize.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Vandicus]

kylecouch wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Desperation is not a good enough excuse to kill people. I guess that's why Spartacus is such a hated figure of history. Sorry but if people don't respect your right as a human being then you don't need to respect theirs. This may make you no better than them, but surely not worse. And if you're tired go to bed or something. This is a discussion and people will disagree. And they won't stop defending their believes just because you are getting tired.

Spartacus actually WAS a slave...the Mages are not slaves they simply hate their situation...a situation they placed themselves into long ago because they hated being free and faced with endless suspistion from the masses. Sorry but the Mages reasons do not justify their course of action. Desperation does not magicly make it ok to use forbidden and evil magic. They kept screaming how the Templars were wrong and that not all Mages use blood magic. Yet they turn around and use blood magic because are "desperate" as you people put it, and accomplish nothing except proveing the Templars right. Hell if you side with the Mages you end up killing more Mages then Templars...CLEARLY you made the right choice. Then Orsino turns to blood magic simply because Meredith already assumes they all do...only proveing her right further. He then goes and attacks YOU...the one who SIDED WITH HIM. Lets not forget he allowed the Kirkwall Killer to do all those horrible things and kill innocents just because he found his reasearch interesting. 

Most Circles treat Mages fairly well...Kirkwall is the EXCEPTION...NOT THE RULE. The argument of "desperation" is the most ridiculus argument I've seen for this since the Mages brought themselves into that situation in the first place. The only argument more ridiculus then this is spareing Anders just becuase you romance him.    

Correct. It is very annoying how many people call the mages slaves. The Tranquil can be arguably be called slaves, as whatever made them Tranquil is forcing them toobey every command, however, most Tranquil actually work for the Circle to fund experiments and such, not the Chantry or Templars. In order to be a slave, one must be in a position of involuntary servitude as another person's property. Mages do not serve the Chantry when they don't want to.

The best term would be imprisonment, although the imprisonment in most Circles isn't all that different from the US school system. Does one have to go to school/Circle? Yes. There are punishments for refusing to do either, and many times punishments in the Dragon Age universe are ignored entirely, such as with the kid in the Hanged Man bragging about being a blood mage. The Circle, which is run by mages with the oversight of Templars, is there as a functional education system to reduce the chances of a person being possessed by demons.

The best analogy is an asylum. People are not there by choice, but are a danger to society. They are let go when they take medication or therapy to solve the problem. The closest psychological disorder to being a mage( I do not wish to be offensive to any irl schizophreniks here) ia schizophrenia. Demons serve as a sort of auditory hallucination to take courses of actions that are harmful and dangerous. Even worse, they offer substantial incentives to do so. Even with the omnipresent danger of a mage possessed by a demon(remember even a small boy like Connor can devestate an arling unless there is a hero nearby), many mages who have passed their Harrowing are free to travel.

Significant examples include Finn, Wynne, and the botany lady from Awakening. In DA2, Bethany can visit her family, even though she is in what is considered a very oppressive Circle.

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Rivain converted to the Qun...they are Qunari as far as they are concerned so of course they care about their well being. They do not, however, care about the well being of innocents outside the Qun.

And the Chantry does? They didn't mind massacring the people of Rivain, even though it served no military purpose, unless they were betting on terrorizing the Qunari. 
And we know that they were very active later to root out all the humans who converted to the Qun, which were a lot more numerous than they expected.

So let's not generalize.

Feel bits of info I might add. The denizens of Rivain had their own religion before the Qun, and were not Andrasteians.
Also, I don't know that its fair to accuse them of massacreing the people of Rivain, since we don't know how those people died. As you said, it served no military purpose. Most collateral damage likely came from mages, siege weapons, and starvation from sieges and supply lines being cut. Qunari, being the practical people they are, would house their warriors in the most solid parts of the fortress and ensure that supplies reached them first. There is no reason to assume that the Chantry just up and decided to kill civilians en masse, or that the casualties were from anything but collatoral damage(which can get pretty high). Think of it like when the Germans bombed Britain in WWII or vice versa(barring when the Germans started seeking out civilian targets), there is a lot of collateral damage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
Feel bits of info I might add. The denizens of Rivain had their own religion before the Qun, and were not Andrasteians.
Also, I don't know that its fair to accuse them of massacreing the people of Rivain, since we don't know how those people died. As you said, it served no military purpose. Most collateral damage likely came from mages, siege weapons, and starvation from sieges and supply lines being cut. Qunari, being the practical people they are, would house their warriors in the most solid parts of the fortress and ensure that supplies reached them first. There is no reason to assume that the Chantry just up and decided to kill civilians en masse, or that the casualties were from anything but collatoral damage(which can get pretty high). Think of it like when the Germans bombed Britain in WWII or vice versa(barring when the Germans started seeking out civilian targets), there is a lot of collateral damage.

Since the codex said they didn't even chip the Qunari occupying force, and that they had all but completely massacred the population of Kont-aar, then dismissing it as "collateral damage" is meh. This is written by a Chantry Scholar and even she did not embellish it like you are doing. They had all but massacred the entire population. Collateral damage does not constitute almost wiping out an entire city of its inhabitants. That's like saying that the sack of Carthage by the Romans was collateral damage.  It can only be the result of a deliberate decision, or of losing control and the soldiers going bezerk. Neither constitutes collateral damage.

And if you want an actual WW2 example. It will be like the fire bombing of Dresden. It served no military purpose at all. And it was NOT collatoral damage. It was an act of terror, that was rightfully criticized almost immediately after it happened.

You are posting as if humans in our history never massacred without any military purpose at stake. It happened a lot. And the Chantry did this here and proceeded to wipe out all Qunari converts, via Inquisition type policies.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[TheRevanchist]

Veronica Ward wrote...


They take you when you are a child no mattee what your parents want. You either face a challenge that ends in your death or face having your "soul" killed baised on an executive decision by some one. So if you make the wrong person angry you become tranquil and hock trinkets for the Chantry. May not be "slavery" but it certainly is not freedom. Also, why the hell would I care what my oppressors define as "slavery"? Templars and the Chantry clearly don't give a damn about hurting innocent people as long as they get what they want.

Because mages need to prove they can resist the temptations of The Fade. "Faceing a Challenge that end in your death"? that only happens if you fail...in which case its not your death but the death of a demon that already ate your soul. If you refuse to prove you can resist the temptations of Demons or you are practiceing Blood Mage then Tranqiluty is the safest course of action. You cannot leave untested Mages walking around because you will never know if they can resist the allureing call of demons, and if they can't they become powerful abomanations and kill everything in their path. The Chantry clearly does not despise them...if they did they wouldn't even bother taking them they would simply kill them at birth. Again...MOST Circles don't Tranqulize mages who speak out...Kirkwall is the exception. And the Chantry and Templars don't really hurt innocent people as long as they get what they want. Mages ARE allowed to leave the Towers now and then...they just have to come back eventually. Familys who hide apostate family members deliberatly put themselves at risk for their actions so I would hardly call them "innocent" in the same sense as your mother...whos brutally murdered by a mage simply her face looked like his wife.  

The Chantry poked the Quinari in Kirwall with a stick untill thw Quinari poked back. Grand Cleric turned a blind eye to her subordonate doing this poking for YEARS. Wonder why they attacked. I am not going to say they were faultless in this, because they were pretty douchey from the get-go.
The Exalted march on the elves happened because when they got thier freedom and their own homeland they went back to wqorshiping their own gods. So they weren't using their freedom in a way that the chantry approved of. . . and you just don't do that. If you do they kill you and stuff you into a ghetto where you are barely a person, let alone a citizen. The elves have every right to be mad, humanity has done nothing but feed them excrement while laughing at them for centuries it seems.

Really? the Grand Claric knew nothing about it until Hawke exposed Mother Petrice for her actions, then allowed the Qunari to take justice for her wrong doings. From where I sit she did nothing wrong. KoP already explained the Elves so I wont bother.  

He didn't want to stop slaughter. He wanted to force people to pick a side and to free his people from their bondage. They locked themselves away in the Chantry because not picking a side benefited them and they could spin it with what ever side came out on top. Anders kinda removed that option. Go Anders! The chantry is not completely evil, but most of the things they do seem to be evil to me.

Except not all mages considered it "bondage". There was a great deal of Mages who liked the system as is. Kirkwall again is the exception as most of the Mages in the city are bat s*** crazy. NO ONE was on Anders side...it was not his place to remove that choice.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Vandicus wrote....
The best analogy is an asylum. People are not there by choice, but are a danger to society. They are let go when they take medication or therapy to solve the problem. The closest psychological disorder to being a mage( I do not wish to be offensive to any irl schizophreniks here) ia schizophrenia. Demons serve as a sort of auditory hallucination to take courses of actions that are harmful and dangerous. Even worse, they offer substantial incentives to do so. Even with the omnipresent danger of a mage possessed by a demon(remember even a small boy like Connor can devestate an arling unless there is a hero nearby), many mages who have passed their Harrowing are free to travel..

Not to nitpick at your analogy, but it doesn't work quite cogently for this argument.  There are varying degrees of schizophrenia and other psychological neurosis.  Some can function in a normal social environment with medication and therapy, others must be committed.  Individual treatment plans differ and therefore should be treated as such. 

What Anders did was deplorable.  I tend to side in favor of moderation.  The circle has its faults but oversight seems like something that can be done responsibly without impinging on the rights of others. 

For me the irony of the game lies in the codex that mentions how the Vael's came to power.  Essentially, they used passive resistance as a means to freedom.  If mages wanted to prove that they could police themselves (which I think they could if sensible people organized them), then why not go this route?  Anders's act of violence completely tarnishes the whole situation.

[Vandicus]

Village Idiot wrote...

Vandicus wrote....
The best analogy is an asylum. People are not there by choice, but are a danger to society. They are let go when they take medication or therapy to solve the problem. The closest psychological disorder to being a mage( I do not wish to be offensive to any irl schizophreniks here) ia schizophrenia. Demons serve as a sort of auditory hallucination to take courses of actions that are harmful and dangerous. Even worse, they offer substantial incentives to do so. Even with the omnipresent danger of a mage possessed by a demon(remember even a small boy like Connor can devestate an arling unless there is a hero nearby), many mages who have passed their Harrowing are free to travel..

Not to nitpick at your analogy, but it doesn't work quite cogently for this argument.  There are varying degrees of schizophrenia and other psychological neurosis.  Some can function in a normal social environment with medication and therapy, others must be committed.  Individual treatment plans differ and therefore should be treated as such. 

What Anders did was deplorable.  I tend to side in favor of moderation.  The circle has its faults but oversight seems like something that can be done responsibly without impinging on the rights of others. 

For me the irony of the game lies in the codex that mentions how the Vael's came to power.  Essentially, they used passive resistance as a means to freedom.  If mages wanted to prove that they could police themselves (which I think they could if sensible people organized them), then why not go this route?  Anders's act of violence completely tarnishes the whole situation.

It is true that an asylum is not a perfect analogy. As the game is in a fantasy realm, making a close real world analogy is nigh impossible. I am fully aware that there are varying degrees of severity, but the most significant two similarities is that mages experience constant badgering by demons to do horrible things, much like the auditory hallucinations that comprise the most common symptom of schizophrenia and that both mages and schizophreniks can(again, not trying to be offensive to anyone suffering from a psychological disorder) be dangerous to other people due to this. The mages do have the advantage of being aware that the demons are evil and out to harm them, that is, if they are raised in a Circle.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Feel bits of info I might add. The denizens of Rivain had their own religion before the Qun, and were not Andrasteians.
Also, I don't know that its fair to accuse them of massacreing the people of Rivain, since we don't know how those people died. As you said, it served no military purpose. Most collateral damage likely came from mages, siege weapons, and starvation from sieges and supply lines being cut. Qunari, being the practical people they are, would house their warriors in the most solid parts of the fortress and ensure that supplies reached them first. There is no reason to assume that the Chantry just up and decided to kill civilians en masse, or that the casualties were from anything but collatoral damage(which can get pretty high). Think of it like when the Germans bombed Britain in WWII or vice versa(barring when the Germans started seeking out civilian targets), there is a lot of collateral damage.

Since the codex said they didn't even chip the Qunari occupying force, and that they had all but completely massacred the population of Kont-aar, then dismissing it as "collateral damage" is meh. This is written by a Chantry Scholar and even she did not embellish it like you are doing. They had all but massacred the entire population. Collateral damage does not constitute almost wiping out an entire city of its inhabitants. That's like saying that the sack of Carthage by the Romans was collateral damage.  It can only be the result of a deliberate decision, or of losing control and the soldiers going bezerk. Neither constitutes collateral damage.

And if you want an actual WW2 example. It will be like the fire bombing of Dresden. It served no military purpose at all. And it was NOT collatoral damage. It was an act of terror, that was rightfully criticized almost immediately after it happened.

You are posting as if humans in our history never massacred without any military purpose at stake. It happened a lot. And the Chantry did this here and proceeded to wipe out all Qunari converts, via Inquisition type policies.

Ok I can't particularly argue the massacre of Kont-aar. Because we don't know all the details...to me however it just seems the Chantry was fighting the Qunari with their own methods since the Qunari did the same thing to Andrasdian cities before they were driven back to Rivain. Does this justify it? not really no...but they seemed to be following the "eye for an eye" mind-set in this situation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
Ok I can't particularly argue the massacre of Kont-aar. Because we don't know all the details...to me however it just seems the Chantry was fighting the Qunari with their own methods since the Qunari did the same thing to Andrasdian cities before they were driven back to Rivain. Does this justify it? not really no...but they seemed to be following the "eye for an eye" mind-set in this situation.

Even if that was the case (source? Maybe many humans just converted and large scale massacres like this never happened. Indeed, the Chantry found out that many had converted and many resisted going back), my point was, let's not villanize the Qunari in order to sanctify the Chantry, which is what you were doing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 02:57 .