1411 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus, why is it annoying to address the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery when the story and Hawke can do the same?

[MaximusPhoenix]

While I did not read every codex in the game, the general impression I got was that the Circle/Chantry pretty much did what they wanted, when they wanted, and took people that showed signs of magic away from their families just because they "may" turn out into bad mages...that's not excuse to label everyone guilty and take away freedoms.

Those that say the Circle "let them be and come and go at their own will" is not enough to be free...There seemed to be 2 levels of "slavery" or whatever you want to call it when it came to mages. There was the lobotomizing tranquil, which took away every part of a persons personality and freedom, and then there is the Circle, who let the mages be "free", but under all these rules. That just does not seem right or fair.

I know the situation in the game is much different than RL, at least in our generation; but what happened with the mages and templars is similar to other past events in history.
Thankfully, we have laws and "words" to sort out problems, and more understanding of issues these days. Was it always this way though a few centuries ago? I doubt it.
Maybe we would not have what we have today if some drastic measures were never taken.

Terrorism is not acceptable I agree, but the time and circumstances in DA2, ya, I think it was necessary.

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Ok I can't particularly argue the massacre of Kont-aar. Because we don't know all the details...to me however it just seems the Chantry was fighting the Qunari with their own methods since the Qunari did the same thing to Andrasdian cities before they were driven back to Rivain. Does this justify it? not really no...but they seemed to be following the "eye for an eye" mind-set in this situation.

Even if that was the case (source? Maybe many humans just converted and large scale massacres like this never happened. Indeed, the Chantry found out that many had converted and many resisted going back), my point was, let's not villanize the Qunari in order to sanctify the Chantry, which is what you were doing.

I can't deny that the Chantry targeted those who had converted to the Qun after taking or recieving Rivain back, nor did I intend to, but I still question whether the casualties were massacres. It makes sense to me that tens of thousands of civilians can die in a siege, I mean, both the soldiers and civilians are in the same place in this era right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
I can't deny that the Chantry targeted those who had converted to the Qun after taking or recieving Rivain back, nor did I intend to, but I still question whether the casualties were massacres. It makes sense to me that tens of thousands of civilians can die in a siege, I mean, both the soldiers and civilians are in the same place in this era right?

Except, again they didn't even chip the Qunari forces.

So either there was no Qunari army in the city. Or the Chantry armies are just that idiotic.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus, why is it annoying to address the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery when the story and Hawke can do the same?

Because its incorrect referencing. It annoys me as much as saying Anders is not a terrorist. Its a blatant mistatement. Those words have a specific meaning. Calling it slavery is a nice way to emotionalize it, but it is still not the proper word for it. Calm and rational debates cannot be had unless both sides are honest with themselves and each other, and that includes referring to things by their proper titles, not emotionally trumped up statements. Serfdom is slavery. Putting a man in prison is not, even without crime or reason, is not. That is what makes the Tranquil slaves(In a sort of roundabout way since the magic obliges them to obey, similar to a blood magic slave), and regular mages not.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus, your comment that the Circle is run by templars and mages isn't accurate. Do you remember the relationship between Knight-Commander Meredith and First Enchanter Orsino? As Gaider himself said, the Chantry controls the Circles, which is how they turned down the Magi boon. Mages are imprisoned, and even the the player as Hawke can call out the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. Considering that the Circles defected from Chantry control in the end, I doubt it was the school system or asylum you seem to suggest they were.

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
I can't deny that the Chantry targeted those who had converted to the Qun after taking or recieving Rivain back, nor did I intend to, but I still question whether the casualties were massacres. It makes sense to me that tens of thousands of civilians can die in a siege, I mean, both the soldiers and civilians are in the same place in this era right?

Except, again they didn't even chip the Qunari forces.

So either there was no Qunari army in the city. Or the Chantry armies are just that idiotic.

I'd say the Chantry armies are just that idiotic. Qunari warriors are good, but they're hardly gods of combat and they were severely outnumbered. The Qunari have cannons and gunpowder, but the Exalted Marchers had magic. If the Qunari were hardly hurt, that says to me that the officers leading that Exalted March were terrible at strategy. Hardly suprising, think of the templars from DA:O who asked for blessed charms for protection. Many of the leaders likely though divine guidance would ensure victory, and as a result(combined with a lack of training), were terrible tacticians.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
I'd say the Chantry armies are just that idiotic. Qunari warriors are good, but they're hardly gods of combat and they were severely outnumbered. The Qunari have cannons and gunpowder, but the Exalted Marchers had magic. If the Qunari were hardly hurt, that says to me that the officers leading that Exalted March were terrible at strategy. Hardly suprising, think of the templars from DA:O who asked for blessed charms for protection. Many of the leaders likely though divine guidance would ensure victory, and as a result(combined with a lack of training), were terrible tacticians.

In either case, it's a massacre that cannot be qualified as collateral damage, when we are talking about the inhabitants of a city being almost completely wiped out and their idiocy does not excuse it.

A large percentage of a city's population dying as collateral damage? I can accept that. But almost completely eradicated? No. Unless they were using super weapons, but that should have hurt the Qunari forces, which didn't happen. So even if they had some super spell, they used it on a city with virtually no Qunari forces to speak of.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus, your comment that the Circle is run by templars and mages isn't accurate. Do you remember the relationship between Knight-Commander Meredith and First Enchanter Orsino? As Gaider himself said, the Chantry controls the Circles, which is how they turned down the Magi boon. Mages are imprisoned, and even the the player as Hawke can call out the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. Considering that the Circles defected from Chantry control in the end, I doubt it was the school system or asylum you seem to suggest they were.

I can't comprehend half of this paragraph, and as I said before, whether or not mages were wrongly imprisoned and whether or not you agree with my asylum/school system analogies, slavery is still not the correct term for it. Also, mages can despise a system that forces them to be educated or restrained until they are deemed safe and can choose to defect, that doesn't mean Circles don't teach mages how to deal with demons and doesn't mean that mages are not allowed outside of Circles once they have proven themselves( I gave several examples). A character such as Hawke can say something without it being accurate.

To say that the Chantry runs the Circles is accurate. To say that the mages run the Circles with templar oversight is also accurate. To say that the US government controls the US army is accurate. To say that the Pentagon controls the US army is also accurate. I don't see your point there.

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
I'd say the Chantry armies are just that idiotic. Qunari warriors are good, but they're hardly gods of combat and they were severely outnumbered. The Qunari have cannons and gunpowder, but the Exalted Marchers had magic. If the Qunari were hardly hurt, that says to me that the officers leading that Exalted March were terrible at strategy. Hardly suprising, think of the templars from DA:O who asked for blessed charms for protection. Many of the leaders likely though divine guidance would ensure victory, and as a result(combined with a lack of training), were terrible tacticians.

In either case, it's a massacre that cannot be qualified as collateral damage, when we are talking about the inhabitants of a city being almost completely wiped out and their idiocy does not excuse it.

A large percentage of a city's population dying as collateral damage? I can accept that. But almost completely eradicated? No. Unless they were using super weapons, but that should have hurt the Qunari forces, which didn't happen. So even if they had some super spell, they used it on a city with virtually no Qunari forces to speak of.

If the casualties were as bad as you say, I am in grave error on my info regarding the Qunari wars. I figured it was something more along the lines of the "Boston Massacre", or perhaps even larger, but not population eradication. Do you know which codexes addressed this or where I can find them? TY in advance for correcting my error.

[LobselVith8]

What's difficult to comprehend? The templars ran the Kirkwall Circle because they are the military arm of the Chantry, who control all sixteen Circles in Thedas (excluding the Tevinter Circles). The mages don't run it with them, as we clearly saw with the relationship between Meredith and Orsino in DA2.

Furthermore, why do you contest a term used in the actual game? They call it slavery. It's the line of reasoning that can convince Fenris to join Hawke if he sided with Meredith initially. You're welcome not to see it that way, but clearly people do see it as slavery in canon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
If the casualties were as bad as you say, I am in grave error on my info regarding the Qunari wars. I figured it was something more along the lines of the "Boston Massacre", or perhaps even larger, but not population eradication. Do you know which codexes addressed this or where I can find them? TY in advance for correcting my error.

It's the codex about the Llomerryn Accords, in DA2. It's written by Chantry Sister Petrine.

I quoted the relevent part a page ago, directly from the game.

When she says "had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar", preceded by "terrible toll on the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat", I took it to mean they almost wiped the entire city of its population.

So much so that the Qunari, who still were still militarily capable and were unaffected, decided to withdraw.

[TheRevanchist]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus, your comment that the Circle is run by templars and mages isn't accurate. Do you remember the relationship between Knight-Commander Meredith and First Enchanter Orsino? As Gaider himself said, the Chantry controls the Circles, which is how they turned down the Magi boon. Mages are imprisoned, and even the the player as Hawke can call out the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. Considering that the Circles defected from Chantry control in the end, I doubt it was the school system or asylum you seem to suggest they were.

I can't comprehend half of this paragraph, and as I said before, whether or not mages were wrongly imprisoned and whether or not you agree with my asylum/school system analogies, slavery is still not the correct term for it. Also, mages can despise a system that forces them to be educated or restrained until they are deemed safe and can choose to defect, that doesn't mean Circles don't teach mages how to deal with demons and doesn't mean that mages are not allowed outside of Circles once they have proven themselves( I gave several examples). A character such as Hawke can say something without it being accurate.

To say that the Chantry runs the Circles is accurate. To say that the mages run the Circles with templar oversight is also accurate. To say that the US government controls the US army is accurate. To say that the Pentagon controls the US army is also accurate. I don't see your point there.

On top of that despite what Gaider said...the bartender in the Hanged Man said that the word is the Ferelden Circle was granted Autonomy when I imported my Mage that picked the boon. Most of the things that Bartender said turned out to be right...so I tend to believe Anora actually makes it happen.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's difficult to comprehend? The templars ran the Kirkwall Circle because they are the military arm of the Chantry, who control all sixteen Circles in Thedas (excluding the Tevinter Circles). The mages don't run it with them, as we clearly saw with the relationship between Meredith and Orsino in DA2.

Furthermore, why do you contest a term used in the actual game? They call it slavery. It's the line of reasoning that can convince Fenris to join Hawke if he sided with Meredith initially. You're welcome not to see it that way, but clearly people do see it as slavery in canon.

I contest the term because its not accurate. Likewise I contest Anakin Skywalker's assertion that he'll bring peace and order to his new Empire in Star Wars Episode 3. Just because a character said it doesn't make it accurate.

Then what does a First Enchanter do, besides overseeing the daily operation of the Circle? They are subordinate to the templars, but that doesn't make the mages any less the teachers and bureacrats that keep the Circle functioning.  I fail to see why you contest my statement that mages run the Circle with Templar oversight. Templar oversight indicates that the Templars are the superiors and are in a position to countermand decisions made by the mages and take control when they deem fit, but the daily running and teaching that goes on still falls to the mages themselves. The Harrowing is one such operation. It is run by mages, who send a student into the Fade using magic, with Templars watching on operating as oversight to ensure that the student is not possessed, or if the student is, that he is dispatched.


@KOP

It does indicate that losses were extremely and seemingly unnecessarily high among civilians. Sorry for wasting your time by disputing the point. No hard feelings right? 

Modifié par Vandicus, 17 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Meredith calls Alistair out on the Magi boon when he invites Hawke to speak with him, and she said it wasn't his authority to make such a decree, so the Chantry clearly turned it down as Gaider said.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's difficult to comprehend? The templars ran the Kirkwall Circle because they are the military arm of the Chantry, who control all sixteen Circles in Thedas (excluding the Tevinter Circles). The mages don't run it with them, as we clearly saw with the relationship between Meredith and Orsino in DA2.
 

You cannot use the example of Kirkwall as representative of Circle and Chantry politics. From the very beginning, Act 1, we are told that the Kirkwall Circle is not like the others. That Meredith had assumed a lot of political power by kicking out the previous Viscount.

And throughout Act 1, 2 and 3, her actions are not representative of normal Circle - Templar relations (best evidenced in Ferelden. Gregoir is NOT like Meredith). They are excessive even by Chantry standards. It's really not that hard to see when you have someone like Cullen doubting her as early as Act 2. 

As brutal as her methods were, it was the exception, not the rule.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[TheRevanchist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

What's difficult to comprehend? The templars ran the Kirkwall Circle because they are the military arm of the Chantry, who control all sixteen Circles in Thedas (excluding the Tevinter Circles). The mages don't run it with them, as we clearly saw with the relationship between Meredith and Orsino in DA2.

Furthermore, why do you contest a term used in the actual game? They call it slavery. It's the line of reasoning that can convince Fenris to join Hawke if he sided with Meredith initially. You're welcome not to see it that way, but clearly people do see it as slavery in canon.

Except that in DAO Knight Commander Greigor himself says the following exact words. "The Templars guard and advise, the First Enchanter has the final say in matters of the Circle." Again...for like the thousandth time...Kirkwall is the exception...not the rule.

[LobselVith8]

You're welcome to personally disagree with it, but don't pretend it's not accurate because it doesn't hold up to your personal views on the matter. You seem to be fan fic'ing a lot more authority for the Chantry controlled Circles than what actually exists, and you keep saying a term is wrong when we have multiple people in canon using it. You don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery? Fine, you're welcome to think whatever you like, but don't tell people they can't use a term that's commonly used by multiple people in the actual story to define the relationship between the Chantry and the Circles.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
@KOP

It does indicate that losses were extremely and seemingly unnecessarily high among civilians. Sorry for wasting your time by disputing the point. No hard feelings right? 

Of course not
I enjoy civil and contructive debates.

Especially when I am arguing against all points being made lol

[TheRevanchist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith calls Alistair out on the Magi boon when he invites Hawke to speak with him, and she said it wasn't his authority to make such a decree, so the Chantry clearly turned it down as Gaider said.

And Alistair as King fails to tigger that boon properly unless you have a PC mod that corrects the mistake...I know that a Queen Anora import spoke of their freedom quite widely.

[LobselVith8]

Kyle, just because Greagoir delegated responsibilities to Irving doesn't change that the Circles are under Chantry control and run by the Order of Templars, as we see with Meredith - who isn't as sympathetic as Greagoir was.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to personally disagree with it, but don't pretend it's not accurate because it doesn't hold up to your personal views on the matter. You seem to be fan fic'ing a lot more authority for the Chantry controlled Circles than what actually exists, and you keep saying a term is wrong when we have multiple people in canon using it. You don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery? Fine, you're welcome to think whatever you like, but don't tell people they can't use a term that's commonly used by multiple people in the actual story to define the relationship between the Chantry and the Circles.

Seriously, for the last time. Slavery is the condition of being an enslaved laborer: the state or condition of being held in involuntary servitude as the property of somebody else.


Direct quote from Encarta dictionary. Mages do not serve the Chantry(bar the Tranquil) and are not property. There is a clear distinction between being wrongfully held and mistreated in other ways and being a slave. To state otherwise is plain and simple factually incorrect. It has nothing to do with my personal views on the matter. In fact that would be nonsensical considering I play pro-mage.


*EDIT

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kyle, just because Greagoir delegated responsibilities to Irving doesn't change that the Circles are under Chantry control and run by the Order of Templars, as we see with Meredith - who isn't as sympathetic as Greagoir was.

Incorrect. Codexes and DA:O state that the First Enchanter runs the Circle. No one has disputed that the Chantries control the Circles, but that is quite different from running them.

Modifié par Vandicus, 17 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[LobselVith8]

You realize the boon is properly imported if Alistair and Anora married, and Loghain was spared since Anora technically gives the boon, correct?

[TheRevanchist]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to personally disagree with it, but don't pretend it's not accurate because it doesn't hold up to your personal views on the matter. You seem to be fan fic'ing a lot more authority for the Chantry controlled Circles than what actually exists, and you keep saying a term is wrong when we have multiple people in canon using it. You don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are slavery? Fine, you're welcome to think whatever you like, but don't tell people they can't use a term that's commonly used by multiple people in the actual story to define the relationship between the Chantry and the Circles.

Except just because people in the game use the term does not mean it's usage is correct. Commander Shepard used Machiavely's famous quote wrong in ME1...just because their in the game does automaticly make them correct.

[Blacklash93]

Elthina seemed nice. And I'm sure there were quite a few innocent people in the Chantry at the time.

What Anders did isn't quite as mindless as a fear-mongering terrorist attack, but sacrificing innocent lives to spur a revolution, no matter how righteous it may be in itself, just isn't right.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 mars 2011 - 03:59 .