1411 réponses à ce sujet

[tom.bleaker]

Elthina put it best: "Death is never justice." Blowing up the Chantry will not erase the hatred and fear of those who hide behind it. It only justifies that fear and that hate.

[AlexXIV]

DKJaigen wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

So basically Justice would see a mage like Bethany killed just because she's happy in the circle? Justice really is vengeance.

You get that in this one quest. Clearly justice wants to kill the mage girl while anders when he is himself again is thankful that he didn't. I think in act 3 justice has influenced Anders so much that he bascially picked up his idea of 'justice'.

The problem with vengeance is that you see everything black and white if you take it to far. that's why anders destroyed the chantr: they are part of the problem. while i normally would condone  blind vengeance in this case anders was right. the chantry is part of the problem in the mage oppression and as such perfectly viable target.

That's why I don't like to see things on the 'grand scale'. You always forget the little people and innocents.

[tom.bleaker]

AlexXIV wrote...
That's why I don't like to see things on the 'grand scale'. You always forget the little people and innocents.

Exactly so.

[Kuolonen]

I always thought that the chantry was, methaphorically speaking, a dog owner who lets her rapid rottweiler (templars) go nuts amongst populance. When asked to stop her dog (she can), her response is "Its in god's hands now" ...
So yeah. Im with Anders on this one.
Death to the servants of the False maker! Blood for the blood mages!

Modifié par Kuolonen, 15 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[HarlequinKing]

I get that this is the Internet and we're talking about a fantasy world anyway, but the first post is pretty rude to players who happen to be religious. Are you some angry teenage atheist? Religious believers are criminals? What?

As for whether the Maker exists, this isn't definitive (Oghren provides an alternate interpretation), but in Origins, talking to the Guardian of Andraste's Ashes makes you think about it.

[tom.bleaker]

HarlequinKing wrote...

I get that this is the Internet and we're talking about a fantasy world anyway, but the first post is pretty rude to players who happen to be religious. Are you some angry teenage atheist? Religious believers are criminals? What?

As for whether the Maker exists, this isn't definitive (Oghren provides an alternate interpretation), but in Origins, talking to the Guardian of Andraste's Ashes makes you think about it.

Maker or no Maker, it makes no difference. The way mages are treated is wrong but this cannot be erased by an even greater wrong. Anders dosen't understand this. Like Meredith, he is a "true beleiver." His faith in his cause blinds him.

Modifié par tom.bleaker, 15 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Arcadionn]

Envor44 wrote...

mc.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20110314-c6e0a.png

I was so angry when I chose the red fist option and suddenly we were in bed and... oh wait now I get it.

In all seriousness... had I not chosen to play a pure pro-mage character on my first playthrough... I would have slaughtered him with a spork until there was nothing left but a puddle...

The grand cleric was one of the most neutral and understanding people in all of Kirkwall and killing her and the chantry/believers (and potentially Vael as he says, since he's always in there) is the worst course of action a mage could take hoping to be understood and accepted by normal people.

Assaulting the Templar? Fine, I expected it would end up with a T v M fight
anyways... but nothing excuses killing innocents or bystanders like
Anders did... Same for the first Enchanter if you side with the mages...
makes no sense. (won't spoil since this topic has not relevance to his
actions)

The circle is not the problem, look at Tevinter and how ridiculous their society is... sure it is a Utopia for powerful mages (weak ones are as bad off as under the templar) where slavery and abuse of blood magic and consorting with demons is as common as a mabari in Ferelden... The Templar not being watched by another entity is the issue... they hold all power and when you are unopposed and hold all the leashes... trouble is merely a stone throw away... lets just say Pentaghast should've have been there during the game, not after.

[HarlequinKing]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Maker or no Maker, it makes no difference. The way mages are treated is wrong but this cannot be erased by an even greater wrong. Anders dosen't understand this. Like Meredith, he is a "true beleiver." His faith in his cause blinds him.

"The ends justify the means". That's the rationale of the pro-Anders crowd, but my mind doesn't comprehend how that argument can be used to hold the higher moral ground. It only leads to scary conclusions.

[Alessar1288]

OP seems to have some anti-religious feelings, but I hope he realizes that Anders can't go a second without not mentioning how the maker this and maker that.

The simple truth is yes mages are oppressed, but Anders did everything incorrectly. Not in one of his lines does he ever think of the consequences. For example when Alistair in his king cameo states that he can't really just kick out the templars and Ander's states that he should try.

Yes he should try and get in a war with a country that is barely recovering from the blight and might have possible troubles with Orlais.

[tom.bleaker]

Arcadionn wrote...

The circle is not the problem, look at Tevinter and how ridiculous their society is... sure it is a Utopia for powerful mages (weak ones are as bad off as under the templar) where slavery and abuse of blood magic and consorting with demons is as common as a mabari in Ferelden... The Templar not being watched by another entity is the issue... they hold all power and when you are unopposed and hold all the leashes... trouble is merely a stone throw away... lets just say Pentaghast should've have been there during the game, not after.

Agreed. A new Tevinter is not to be desired. I have to beleive that there are better options than either being slaves to mages or enslaving mages. Mages should police each other, with the Templars as a necessary further check. To treat all mages as monsters from birth is to encourage them to be monstrous and to let them think they are gods is to make them demons.  There has to be a better way.

[HarlequinKing]

Alessar1288 wrote...

OP seems to have some anti-religious feelings, but I hope he realizes that Anders can't go a second without not mentioning how the maker this and maker that.

Anders' religious position is probably good fodder for another thread. I got the impression near the end of the game, though, that he only quotes from the Chant when it suits his arguments. I seem to recall some line of his where he actually blames Andraste for the Circles of Magi. He may have been a good enough Andrastian before (in Awakening), but by the end, he's only a one-track-minded mouthpiece for Vengeance.

The simple truth is yes mages are oppressed, but Anders did everything incorrectly. Not in one of his lines does he ever think of the consequences. For example when Alistair in his king cameo states that he can't really just kick out the templars and Ander's states that he should try.

Yeah. And in one of his personal quests (the one about uncovering the plot to make all mages Tranquil), it's revealed that he's a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

[MICHELLE7]

I didn't have a problem with Anders blowing up the chantry...seems to me the chantry is where the Templars got most of their authority or justification for oppressing the mages. I saw it as a strategic move.

In my opinion the mages were born the way they were...why can't they have the right to be who and what they were without hindrance. Neither the chantry nor the Templars were born with some authority or right to oppress and control the mages...they just took it.

As for the loss of lives...this is what usually happens when people began to throw off oppression...why? because those that do the oppressing very rarely give into the demands of those being oppressed for fear of losing their power over them. You can look overseas to see that,,,Bioware made this a pretty realistic game in that respect.

Also, I believe that if Grand Cleric Elthina had been an unlikable character you would see less complaints.

[Arppis]

I don't like religion being used as a tool either. I am an atheist. But I do see that some people find hope and comfort in religion at the time of need. It's sad that people need to paint these images in their heads about heaven and such, but it's just a way to make sure they don't lose their minds, give some comfort in the dark times. People are different and they have different needs.

That being said. I didn't get so upset for blowing up the Chantry, but the fact that so many good people died there, like the leader of the Chantry who wanted nothing more than peaceful sollution, like my "wisecracking" Hawke. I got really angry at Anders, even when he was my only healer, I just killed him there. He ruined everything, ruined a chance for peaceful resolution.

And that is why he was wrong.

Modifié par Arppis, 15 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Adamski_707]

I in a way sided with anders. After all what he did was essentialy a crime of high emotion. It was desperation move.
What he did was wrong and he should indeed be punished for it but the motives behind it held great merit. Therefore i chose to let him live and seeing the knight commanders reaction it was only fair to protect the mages since they didnt even commit the act.

[Garath1988]

If I was a mage, living in a world where a religion held by the vast majority of people not only condoned but by itself was responsible for the imprisonment and killing(tranquilizing) of a subgroup of people who were born a certain way and never given any choice, you're damn right I would think he did the right thing. Anders' goal was never to strike out against the religion, I don't think he could care less about the precious Maker, but the ruthless oppression of mages had to be stopped. It was very obvious he was beyond remorseful for the civilians, but the Grand Cleric had to die to force a rebellion. Had Meredith searched the tower she would have found the necromancy research in Orsino's offices and executed every mage without them ever having a chance to fight back.
Anders is right, rather die fighting an oppresive ideology than to be murdered in your sleep for something you did not choose to be.

[tom.bleaker]

Garath1988 wrote...
Anders is right, rather die fighting an oppresive ideology than to be murdered in your sleep for something you did not choose to be.

Die yes. Acts of terrorism, no.

[Darkzler]

There is nothing that can justify the murder of innocents, at least that's my oppinion. What Anders did was quite funny and extremely surprising but I do think it was utterly crazy too. I'd rather see him going straight for Meredith and start there instead of taking the backdoor with a huge explosion hehe.

[Risax]

I don't think he did the right thing, it's never good to kill that much innocent people.
I do think however that blowing up the Chantry was a good way to get the attention of people though, sometimes it takes something drastic to change the way people think.

But how mages will be viewed now?

[Layn]

considering that grand cleric elthina was the only sane leader in the story, there was nothing righteous about what he did. the templars are abusing their power, not the chantry.
can't say anything about all the others in the bulidng, many of them innocent probably. some probably total bastards like petrice, which isnt enough for me to blow up an entire building

Modifié par Crrash, 15 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[HarlequinKing]

The pro-Anders crowd is also forgetting about all the Loyalists and devout Andrastians among the mages, such as Wynne. They are more likely to turn against their own kind than raise up arms against templars. It's also going to side most of Thedas against the mages, not for them; blaming them for something that's really just one man's crazy fault. I really, honestly don't see how Anders' action could bring about any good. It's just self-righteous masturbation.

[Garath1988]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...
Anders is right, rather die fighting an oppresive ideology than to be murdered in your sleep for something you did not choose to be.

Die yes. Acts of terrorism, no.

So Anders has two options, to die or be a prisoner his entire life for something he was born as?
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective. Were those "innocents" really innocent, how innocent is believing in a religion that imprisons people because of a god-given(the irony of this is so horrific, I can only commend Bioware writers for it) trait they were born with?
There is no moral highground available to those opressed by ideologies that absolutely refuse to give ground. You fight or you die, and people die in revolutions.
Look at Lebanon, Ghaddafi did not step down or give any ground when asked nicely so they fight. You think civilians don't die and suffer in the fighting? Ultimately what choice do they have...

Crrash wrote...

. the templars are abusing their power, not the chantry.

The chantry controls the templars, the chantry is allowing it. Anders is perfectly right, there is no compromise. Elthina could smoothen things out again i'm sure, but for how long? Her actions ultimately don't change the injustice that is the circle. As a previous poster said, oppresive ideologies don't usually surrender if you ask nicely, you accept their opression or you fight back.

[ScotGaymer]

The problem with original post isnt that he or she is right or wrong; it is that he or she is applying real world values and analogues to the game and to the chantry.

He or she is equating the fairly benign Chantry with the Catholic Church as many are want to do.

This is not fair or correct. The Chantry bare's little resemblance to the Church in actuality; and while the Church has a long and proud history of slavery, abuse, mysognistic attitudes, racism, and homophobia the Chantry does not.
The Church is an organisation that is an actuality a Chaotic Evil organisation masquarading as a Lawful Good organisation (if we use Forgotten Realms terminology) whereas The White Chantry (as apposed to the Black Chantry) is Lawful Neutral and doesnt pretend to be otherwise.

They are not analagous.

@Garath:
If you are going to use real life examples as part of your arguement then at least get it right. Lebanon is an entirely different (and democratic) country that exists above Israel from Libya which is a Dictatorship ruled by Colonel Gaddafi.

[hismastersvoice]

Garath1988 wrote...
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective

Grade A bull manure. Once you start killing innocent people, you're a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. No amount of perspective will change that.

Resistance against invading forces during WW2 - freedom fighting. Blowing up WTC - terrorism. There's no place here for shades of gray.

[Soltan Heatwave]

     I think that what Anders did was totally wrong and I killed him for it.  This war, that was started by Anders actions, has been brewing, in game time, for a while though. You get a feel for it when you clear out the Circle of Mages and talk to the blood mage female, after killing her group, in Origins. Then when you meet Winn in Awakenings she talks about the Cumberland meeting, where the mages are considering freeing themselves from the Chantry.  At that time Anders was strongly opposed to the mages freeing themselves.

     There is, in Origins, an alternative to the Circle, the Mages Consortium, they had my Warden go out and hunt down blood mages. Over all I think the mages need to be free of the chantry, but they also need policing, otherwise there would be another Tevinter Imperium. I think the people need to be protected from the mages who would give themselves to the demons in exchange for power, but I think there are enough good mages who would stand against them.  In the end I think that Anders acations only strengthened the average person's view of mages as something to be closely controlled.  Even if you aren't religious, and find out what he did and start thinking that other mages can do the same thing, you as an average guy would probably want something done to keep this power in check.  Just think of them as that ages nukes, they may be people, but they have a lot of power, if unleashed will cause a lot of damage, and innocents being killed.

Modifié par Soltan Heatwave, 15 mars 2011 - 03:43 .

[AlexXIV]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective

Grade A bull manure. Once you start killing innocent people, you're a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. No amount of perspective will change that.

Resistance against invading forces during WW2 - freedom fighting. Blowing up WTC - terrorism. There's no place here for shades of gray.

There are always shades of grey. There is no just or holy war because in war always innocents die. Just that the facts that it happens isn't an excuse for doing it on purpose. I mean killing half of humanity to save all of it is probably a wise choice. Even if hard. But that doesn't mean killing even one innocent can be forgiven if there is no need. You can count corpses in an attempt to justify what you did, but I think the better way is to always look for solutions that don't require corpses at all.