1411 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

Badpie wrote...

Anders is a terrorist. Nothing more.

This. He didn't pick a military target, he picked a civilian one with a high bodycount so that further violence would break out and showed no regret or remourse over his actions. A revolution was coming but Anders set a bloody and monsterous tone for it by throwing innocents into the line of fire. I'm more than a bit disturbed that people are coddling him (presumably because he's romancable) but I remember people trying to wash away Morinth's crimes so I shouldn't really be surprised.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 01:21 .

[CRISIS1717]

So OP advocates killing innocents and thinks its ok because they follow religion?

You make it sound like you actually believe in this in RL if you do you are simply a bad person imo.

[InvaderErl]

Well some of these comments are people trying to sound edgy methinks, advocating terrorist-style attacks and all.

[TheCreeper]

The OP more than a little scares me.

[Badpie]

InvaderErl wrote...

Badpie wrote...

Anders is a terrorist. Nothing more.

This. He didn't pick a military target, he picked a civilian one with a high bodycount so that further violence would break out and showed no regret or remourse over his actions. A revolution was coming but Anders set a bloody and monsterous tone for it by throwing innocents into the line of fire. I'm more than a bit disturbed that people are coddling him (presumably because he's romancable) but I remember people trying to wash away Morinth's crimes so I shouldn't really be surprised.

Granted, he was a terrorist my Hawke had been in love with for years so she was blindsided by his craziness, but just because he was an awesome character and a friend or lover doesn't make what he did any more right.  Think of terrorists today who bomb things and kill innocent people.  They aren't just "terrorists."  They're also real people who feel love, have families and emotions.  They are just blinded by a psychotic cause.  Anders was exactly this.  He's a terrorist just like any "terrorist" we label today.  Heartbreaking but true.  And you wouldn't run off with someone in real life who just bombed a church or school would you?  Yeah I didn't think so.

[AlexXIV]

Even terrorists can fight for the right cause. Their means are not really tolerable, but doesn't mean that whatever they are fighting for isn't a good thing.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 01:40 .

[InvaderErl]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that jazz.

[LobselVith8]

Invader, Anders technically picked an institution of the Chantry to attack, and it's the Chantry who have enslaved the mages for a thousand years in the name of religion. There's no comparison to people or groups in present day because Anders is focused on emancipating his people from slavery.

[InvaderErl]

And everyone in that Chantry is deserving of death I assume? They were all directly involved with the oppression of Mages because they were inside a building devoted to religious worship? Anders had lost all sense by that point. He wasn't looking for justice he was looking for vengeance and war.

It strikes me mad that as Orisini is practically begging the Knight Commander to see that all Mages are not guilty of the crimes of a few, Anders is blowing up a Chantry full of who knows how many people who had no direct part to play in that conflict.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 01:59 .

[AlexXIV]

InvaderErl wrote...

And everyone in that Chantry is deserving of death I assume? They were all directly involved with the oppression of Mages because they were inside a building devoted to religious worship? Anders had lost all sense by that point. He wasn't looking for justice he was looking for vengeance and war.

No he didn't want to kill innocents but he did it because he thought there is no other way. He couldn't have told everyone to leave the Chantry because he is going to blow it up. Also you kill alot more people during the game than Anders with his 'bomb'. He knows what he is doing is wrong, but he feels he has no choice, that it is the only way to break the Chantry's grip on the mages once and for all in all of Thedas.

You always have to remember that the Chantry controlled the mages for thousand years and never found any real good solution. The Chantry had failed. They also failed in their choice of templars. Too many paranoid and fanatic people in there. Obviously they don't have very high standars for recruiting them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edited away.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 mars 2011 - 02:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

The chantry controls the Templars who control the Circles. thats roughly the way that the Chantry controls the Circles.

No, the Divine controls the Templars controls the Circles.

The Divine also controls the Chantry (religious arm), but the Templars in Kirkwall were controlled by no one except themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edited away.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 mars 2011 - 02:16 .

[InvaderErl]

AlexXIV wrote...
No he didn't want to kill innocents but he did it because he thought there is no other way. He couldn't have told everyone to leave the Chantry because he is going to blow it up.

Of course not, because he wanted civilian casualties. He needed a high bodycount to provoke such outrage that the Templars would be forced to kill every Mage in Kirkwall and consequently the Mages would be forced to fight back. He wanted violence.

AlexXIV wrote...

 Also you kill alot more people during the game than Anders with his 'bomb'.

My Hawke never killed anyone who couldn't fight back nor did I ever murder an innocent. 

AlexXIV wrote...

He knows what he is doing is wrong, but he feels he has no choice, that it is the only way to break the Chantry's grip on the mages once and for all in all of Thedas.

I know what he feels and I think he's completely lost all sense of judgment because of it.

AlexXIV wrote...

You always have to remember that the Chantry controlled the mages for thousand years and never found any real good solution. The Chantry had failed. They also failed in their choice of templars. Too many paranoid and fanatic people in there. Obviously they don't have very high standars for recruiting them.

The very compromise Anders refused would have been the best solution. Lack of any oversight leads to the Tevinter Imperium, too much control leads to the Kirkwall Templars. 
 

[Vilegrim]

MisterJB wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

he changed it from slow eradication by  increasingly fanatical Templars (and Meredith was unique only in timing, in DAO the same arguements where being made and gaining ground)  to a fight in which the mages at least stood a slim chance.   Could he have chosen a better way? Yes, for a decapitation strike it was poorly executed. 

Was in inevitable? Yes, well that or all mages ever quietly going to tranquility or death.

Meredith is quite unique, as a matter of fact. Or do you forget the Lyrium Idol? The rest of the templars seemed very reasonable, Thrask, Greagoir, even Cullen.
Naturally, there will always be sick bastards like the Tranquil Solution Templar but the Divine herself refused his request. Of course, that was before a certain mage blew up a chantry and killed a Grand Cleric.

A war with the Templars was certainly avoidable and it will benefit no one because the mages don't stand a chance of winning without turning to Blood Magic or Demons, thus justifying the Rigth of Annulment and turning the common people against them when even the nobles of Kirkwall were already starting to sympathize with the pligth of the Mages.

And the timing couldn't be worse. Orlais seems determined to start a war with Ferelden and the Grey Wardens are apparently preparing for the Sixth Bligth or something even worse.

No she's not, or did you forget how the Templars where talking in DAO?  There they where held back by a sane knight-commander, in this they where unleashed.  Some amongst the order didn't want to do it, but the vast majority did it smiling.

[Jester12]

He did what he thought was right. Wasn't the best idea because he pushed the crazy bastard Meredith over the edge but.. What can he do. As for the right thing i dont know about that. He screwed a lot of mages and even pushed Orsino into blood magic. Which was completely dumb.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Jester12 wrote...

He did what he thought was right. Wasn't the best idea because he pushed the crazy bastard Meredith over the edge but.. What can he do. As for the right thing i dont know about that. He screwed a lot of mages and even pushed Orsino into blood magic. Which was completely dumb.

Orsino already knew the blood magic.  He had been hiding it.

[AlexXIV]

InvaderErl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
No he didn't want to kill innocents but he did it because he thought there is no other way. He couldn't have told everyone to leave the Chantry because he is going to blow it up.

Of course not, because he wanted civilian casualties. He needed a high bodycount to provoke such outrage that the Templars would be forced to kill every Mage in Kirkwall and consequently the Mages would be forced to fight back. He wanted violence.

AlexXIV wrote...

 Also you kill alot more people during the game than Anders with his 'bomb'.

My Hawke never killed anyone who couldn't fight back nor did I ever murder an innocent. 

AlexXIV wrote...

He knows what he is doing is wrong, but he feels he has no choice, that it is the only way to break the Chantry's grip on the mages once and for all in all of Thedas.

I know what he feels and I think he's completely lost all sense of judgment because of it.

AlexXIV wrote...

You always have to remember that the Chantry controlled the mages for thousand years and never found any real good solution. The Chantry had failed. They also failed in their choice of templars. Too many paranoid and fanatic people in there. Obviously they don't have very high standars for recruiting them.

The very compromise Anders refused would have been the best solution. Lack of any oversight leads to the Tevinter Imperium, too much control leads to the Kirkwall Templars. 
 

There are no compromises with the Chantry. Just look at the elves. Yes he wanted a war, because he thought peaceful negotiation with the Chantry are pointless. Which is true.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[MisterJB]

Vilegrim wrote...

No she's not, or did you forget how the Templars where talking in DAO?  There they where held back by a sane knight-commander, in this they where unleashed.  Some amongst the order didn't want to do it, but the vast majority did it smiling.

That migth have been because the Ferelden Circle of Magi was overrun by Abominations and Blood Mages, just saying.
I won't blame some of the Templars, Cullen being a prime example, for adopting harsher views on mages after that incident.

[AlexXIV]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jester12 wrote...

He did what he thought was right. Wasn't the best idea because he pushed the crazy bastard Meredith over the edge but.. What can he do. As for the right thing i dont know about that. He screwed a lot of mages and even pushed Orsino into blood magic. Which was completely dumb.

Orsino already knew the blood magic.  He had been hiding it.

He only knew it though because of the templar pressure on the Circle. I am not saying it was right of him, but it was Meredith who provoked it.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Vilegrim]

AlexXIV wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
No he didn't want to kill innocents but he did it because he thought there is no other way. He couldn't have told everyone to leave the Chantry because he is going to blow it up.

Of course not, because he wanted civilian casualties. He needed a high bodycount to provoke such outrage that the Templars would be forced to kill every Mage in Kirkwall and consequently the Mages would be forced to fight back. He wanted violence.

AlexXIV wrote...

 Also you kill alot more people during the game than Anders with his 'bomb'.

My Hawke never killed anyone who couldn't fight back nor did I ever murder an innocent. 

AlexXIV wrote...

He knows what he is doing is wrong, but he feels he has no choice, that it is the only way to break the Chantry's grip on the mages once and for all in all of Thedas.

I know what he feels and I think he's completely lost all sense of judgment because of it.

AlexXIV wrote...

You always have to remember that the Chantry controlled the mages for thousand years and never found any real good solution. The Chantry had failed. They also failed in their choice of templars. Too many paranoid and fanatic people in there. Obviously they don't have very high standars for recruiting them.

The very compromise Anders refused would have been the best solution. Lack of any oversight leads to the Tevinter Imperium, too much control leads to the Kirkwall Templars. 
 

There are no compromises with the Chantry. Just look at the elves. Yes he wanted a war, because he thought peaceful negotiation with the Chantry are pointless. Which is true.

Or the Dwarves for that matter, on ending of DAO has an Exalted March called against them (not that they where blameless but the 'convert or die' vibe is strong with the chantry)

[Melra]

I thought it was called because of how they used the Anvil of the Void, not because they didn't convert. I enjoyed killing Anders, he was an idiot and deserved his fate.

Hawke could've possibly brought peace on my playthrough, by other means. He was playing it nice with Meredith, just to get to be the Viscount, while at the same time trying to have other Templars overthrow her and put someone like Cullen in charge.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I give up. You've been in the same position for months and no amount of discussion or evidence is going to change that. It's a waste of time for all involved. 

I find that to be condescending.

You deserve to be condescended to, for all the intellectual honesty and mental flexibility you demonstrate.

As with KoP, I will wash my hands of you as well. Consider my last replies to you irrelevant, as they'll be deleted momentarily.

[Thiefy]

oh god another "religion is evil" ranter. =/
yes, the orphans who lived in the chantry were positively nefarious in their inactiion to save the mages, despite their ability to do other wise.

[terdferguson123]

I think many people are misunderstanding the point of what Anders was doing. I also think the OP completely missed the point as well. Anders didn't do it as some huge scheme to destroy religion and everyone who believes in the maker (The op seems to think that). He did it because Elthina was a constant neutral force between Orsino and Meridith. She was always keeping them from breaking out into war, which seems right but things were not able to continue the way they were. Meridith was mad, if you can't see that you are out of your mind, something NEEDED To change and Anders pushed the buttons to do it. Another attack on the Templar's would NOT have been enough. Think about it, the mages had been battling the Templars through Thrask's mini revolution long before that, and while it was causing Meridith to get edgy (when was she not), Elthina was still going to talk them down.

He also knew exactly what he was doing. Why do you think he spent time talking to you and Varric in a tone that implyed he was going to die soon? It's because he knew he would be killed for his actions. The point is that as wrong as his action was at the time, it will have an effect in the future for the better for mages. Looking past the point that it gets Meredith out of the picture but it's also a sign to mages around Thedas that they need not be pushed into slavery anymore. It's kind of a situation where unfortanately people die, but their deaths prove a point in the future to prevent history from repeating itself. As horrible as it may seem now, it was the right thing to do when thinking of the long term.

Also, I am not condoning acts of terrorism, this is a video game so don't start with that crap. And unfortunately sometimes things need to happen this way in order for change to occur, if you don't believe that just read some history books.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 17 mars 2011 - 02:24 .