1411 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

AlexXIV wrote...

There are no compromises with the Chantry. Just look at the elves. Yes he wanted a war, because he thought peaceful negotiation with the Chantry are pointless. Which is true.

And again I reiterate, he blew up a Chantry full of people who almost certainly had no direct involvement in that. I seriously doubt Chanter so-and-so and Sister such-and-such were kicking down the doors of Apostates. How about who knows how many Worshippers were inside? They had it coming?

He knew exactly were the Templar base in Kirkwall is, that he chose to attack innocent people just to create a visceral point makes him a complete monster at that point. He doesn't even CARE about the lives he's cost that night, they're meaningless to him. Whatever his reasons he had no right to attack innocent people in a completely brazen matter.

I can already see Anders roaming the country side blowing up Chantry's along the way to make more points.

And not even TRYING to negotiate means the cycle of violence is going to just keep spinning round and round. Either the Mages win and we get Tevinter 2.0 or the Templars win and crack down harder than ever on the Mages.
Good job Anders.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 02:27 .

[Vilegrim]

MisterJB wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

No she's not, or did you forget how the Templars where talking in DAO?  There they where held back by a sane knight-commander, in this they where unleashed.  Some amongst the order didn't want to do it, but the vast majority did it smiling.

That migth have been because the Ferelden Circle of Magi was overrun by Abominations and Blood Mages, just saying.
I won't blame some of the Templars, Cullen being a prime example, for adopting harsher views on mages after that incident.

They where talking like that already, in the mage origin story.   

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[terdferguson123]

InvaderErl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

There are no compromises with the Chantry. Just look at the elves. Yes he wanted a war, because he thought peaceful negotiation with the Chantry are pointless. Which is true.

And again I reiterate, he blew up a Chantry full of people who almost certainly had no direct involvement in that. I seriously doubt Chanter so-and-so and Sister such-and-such were kicking down the doors of Apostates. How about who knows how many Worshippers were inside? They had it coming?

He knew exactly were the Templar base in Kirkwall is, that he chose to attack innocent people just to create a visceral point makes him a complete monster at that point. He doesn't even CARE about the lives he's cost that night, they're meaningless to him. Whatever his reasons he had no right to attack innocent people in a completely brazen matter.

I can already see Anders roaming the country side blowing up Chantry's along the way to make more points.

And not even TRYING to negotiate means the cycle of violence is going to just keep spinning round and round. Either the Mages win and we get Tevinter 2.0 or the Templars win and crack down harder than ever on the Mages.
Good job Anders.

You are just being foolish if you think the Chantry had nothing to do with the situation in Kirkwall. Elthina was the ONLY thing stopping the Templars from killing every mage just for being a mage.

[InvaderErl]

And of course she had to die for that terrible sin.

And please explain to me how that means EVERY or even MOST of the people that would have been in the Chantry had it coming as well?

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[AlexXIV]

You keep missing the point. What Anders did caused all the Circles and mages in Thedas to rise up against their oppressors. This was his goal. He knew he had to sacrifice innocents to achieve that. He doesn't care what people think of him. It is not a selfish act at all. You can compare it to a terrorist who runs with explosives around his waist into a room full of people and blows himself up. They don't do it for selfish reasons, they do it for something they believe in. They do it because they think nobody will care or listen if they don't kill alot of people.

Sad but true, even in our real life politics it is the case. In germany politicans are talking about shutting down nuclear plants after what happened in Japan. But it had to happen first. They wouldn't even talk about it if not so many people died and suffered. To rise public interest you have to blow things up. It's sad but true. You can't fight a corrupted system with logic. You can't tell them anything they don't know. The only thing you can do is to show them what it will cost them if they don't change. And if it takes violence then it is what it takes.

That doesn't mean I support killing innocents or whatever. I am only saying that I can understand what Anders did and why. And I don't think he was going crazy. He was doing what he thought the only option he had left, even at the cost of his life and of the life of innocents. He doesn't look happy after he did it. He knows what he did and the consequences but even then he still feels he didn't really have a choice if he wanted to end a 1000 years old injustice

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[InvaderErl]

AlexXIV wrote...

You keep missing the point. What Anders did caused all the Circles and mages in Thedas to rise up against their oppressors. This was his goal. He knew he had to sacrifice innocents to achieve that. He doesn't care what people think of him. It is not a selfish is act at all. You can compare it to a terrorist who runs with explosives around his waist into a room full of people and blows himself up. They don't do it for selfish reasons, they do it for something they believe in. They do it because they think nobody will care or listen if they don't kill alot of people.

You keep making a point in response to some kind of a point that I'm not making.

I know why Anders did it and I think he is a stupid narrow-minded fool for doing it.
 
At best he's being compromised by Justice (who's been twisted into Vengeance by Anders so that says something about Anders) and at worst he's a terrorist and a murderer.

Killing innocent people to make a POINT is something that sounds all well and good in the abstract but if it was your family members that got blown up by Anders for being in a freaking Church at the wrong place and time I would absolutely love to hear you come out and defend his actions.

What he did is only going to lead to more deaths in the long-run.

AlexXIV wrote...

Sad but true, even if our real life politics it is the case. In germany politicans are talking about shutting down nuclear plants after what happened in Japan. But it had to happen first. They wouldn't even talk about it if not so many people died and suffered. To rise public interest you have to blow things up. It's sad but true. You can't fight a corrupted system with logic. You can't tell them anything they don't know. The only thing you can do is to show them what it will cost them if they don't change. And if it takes violence then it is what it takes.

You can't SERIOUSLY be comparing a terrorist act to a meltdown that was the result of a natural disaster. SERIOUSLY.

AlexXIV wrote...

That doesn't mean I support killing innocents or whatever.

You sure did just make a case for it.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[terdferguson123]

InvaderErl wrote...

And of course she had to die for that terrible sin.

And please explain to me how that means EVERY or even MOST of the people that would have been in the Chantry had it coming as well?

Great change rarely ever occurs from doing things people agree on, if they agree on it why would they change it? It's unfortanate and certainly is disgusting that innocents died for his action, but it will have a positive effect on thousands of mages in the future. An event like this is something thats never easy to accept but as with any decision you need to look at more than just the downsides to it.

[Innocent Erendira]

This thread is kind of amazing.

Personally, I saw the act of blowing up the chantry as the point where Anders has truly lost himself to Vengeance, and I felt bad for him. This is not something Anders would have supported and I think he came back to himself a little afterwards and felt regret and doubt.

A big theme in DA2 seems to be something like "the rode to hell is paved with good intentions". Hawke tried to help throughout the game but ultimately made things worse, meredith wanted to protect her people and was warped by this, Anders thought he was doing a good thing by merging with justice but that quickly soured.

Very interesting.

[terdferguson123]

InvaderErl wrote...

You can't SERIOUSLY be comparing a terrorist act to a meltdown that was the result of a natural disaster. SERIOUSLY.

I don't think you understood his point about the Japan situation. He is stating that no matter what CAUSES something it only has the effect of change if a lot of people die. Whether that be from terrorist or natural disaster. It's a sad but true situation that great change only happens when people die. Anders understood that and it sucks. It just straight up SUCKS that thats how these things work. But thats just it, thats how it works.

[AlexXIV]

InvaderErl wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

You keep missing the point. What Anders did caused all the Circles and mages in Thedas to rise up against their oppressors. This was his goal. He knew he had to sacrifice innocents to achieve that. He doesn't care what people think of him. It is not a selfish is act at all. You can compare it to a terrorist who runs with explosives around his waist into a room full of people and blows himself up. They don't do it for selfish reasons, they do it for something they believe in. They do it because they think nobody will care or listen if they don't kill alot of people.

You keep making a point in response to some kind of a point that I'm not making.

I know why Anders did it and I think he is a stupid narrow-minded fool for doing it.
 
At best he's being compromised by Justice (who's been twisted into Vengeance by Anders so that says something about Anders) and at worst he's a terrorist and a murderer.

Killing innocent people to make a POINT is something that sounds all well and good in the abstract but if it was your family members that got blown up by Anders for being in a freaking Church at the wrong place and time I would absolutely love to hear you come out and defend his actions.

What he did is only going to lead to more deaths in the long-run.

AlexXIV wrote...

Sad but true, even if our real life politics it is the case. In germany politicans are talking about shutting down nuclear plants after what happened in Japan. But it had to happen first. They wouldn't even talk about it if not so many people died and suffered. To rise public interest you have to blow things up. It's sad but true. You can't fight a corrupted system with logic. You can't tell them anything they don't know. The only thing you can do is to show them what it will cost them if they don't change. And if it takes violence then it is what it takes.

You can't SERIOUSLY be comparing a terrorist act to a meltdown that was the result of a natural disaster. SERIOUSLY.

AlexXIV wrote...

That doesn't mean I support killing innocents or whatever.

You sure did just make a case for it.

Well talking with you sure supports my claim that logic and common sense doesn't always help you to make a point. You believe what you want to believe. I used Japan as an example ... as an attempt ... to show you that to raise public interest something really bad has to happen. A point completely lost to you. I don't know how often I have to say that killing innocents is bad to keep you from thinking that my opinion is that it is good. You just believe what you want to believe whatever I say. And I never said great job Anders, I would have done the same. In contrary. My Hawke always sends him away. I neither want to kill him to make him a martyr and a symbol for the mages uprise, nor do I want to side with a murderer and terrorist.

My point is merely that he thought he had to do what he did. And that I think that he is probably right about it being the only way to bring about any change. Neither the Warden nor Hawke could do anything to change one thing in the Chantry, nobody could. Not Alistair as king, not the Viscount of Kirkwall. Even the Empress of Orlais does have trouble to stop a war with Ferelden. The Chantry does what it wants and does not let anyone stop them. If there was an emperor of Thedas, even he or she could not stop the Chantry from doing whatever they think they have to do.

I don't know who said it, but there is a saying. If all diplomatic means fail, the only one that remains is violence.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[InvaderErl]

terdferguson123 wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

You can't SERIOUSLY be comparing a terrorist act to a meltdown that was the result of a natural disaster. SERIOUSLY.

I don't think you understood his point about the Japan situation. He is stating that no matter what CAUSES something it only has the effect of change if a lot of people die. Whether that be from terrorist or natural disaster. It's a sad but true situation that great change only happens when people die. Anders understood that and it sucks. It just straight up SUCKS that thats how these things work. But thats just it, thats how it works.

I understand but I feel that a health risk situation is inherently different from a guy going in and blowing a place up in the kind of reaction they provoke. The former leads to questions about what went wrong and how to fix it whereas the latter leads to a THAT DUDE KILLED US, HE'S A MAGE - WE NEED TO KILL MAGES BEFORE THEY KILL US line of thinking.

Anders FORCED the Mages into all-out war against the Templars. The Mages have no leadership, they have no central goals or end game in mind that initiated this action. The situation is already falling apart into total chaos  by the end of the game.

This idea that its all just going to sort itself out is absurd when the Chantry cannot even control the Templars any longer. You've essentially got an immovable force vs an unstoppable object and they're going to tear Thedas apart doing it.

And again, I refuse to condone Anders' action on the basis of some kind of historical prerogrative.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 17 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[Lirea Dragonage]

I don't think what Anders did was right but I couldn't argue with the result. Not that that negates his actions. Not sure I'll ever be able to execute him either when I side with the mages. I agree with his entire philosophy completely (I just don't agree with his methods) and I think killing him would be of no use. He's made this mess, he can damn well help clear it up.

[syllogi]

Innocent Erendira wrote...
This thread is kind of amazing.

Personally, I saw the act of blowing up the chantry as the point where Anders has truly lost himself to Vengeance, and I felt bad for him. This is not something Anders would have supported and I think he came back to himself a little afterwards and felt regret and doubt.

A big theme in DA2 seems to be something like "the rode to hell is paved with good intentions". Hawke tried to help throughout the game but ultimately made things worse, meredith wanted to protect her people and was warped by this, Anders thought he was doing a good thing by merging with justice but that quickly soured.

Very interesting.

Anders knew that what he was doing was the "wrong thing" even before the event, but Justice was in control at that point.  He could only plan to die afterwards.  He knew that doing what Justice wanted and being killed as a result would "free" him finally, but at least a part of him wanted this, or else he would have just killed himself ahead of time...thus, he felt he deserved his fate.

I feel like he did the wrong thing for the right reasons.  I feel for him...but the greatest mercy would be to kill him and let him be free of the guilt and consequences of being bound to Justice.

[AlexXIV]

TeenZombie wrote...

Innocent Erendira wrote...
This thread is kind of amazing.

Personally, I saw the act of blowing up the chantry as the point where Anders has truly lost himself to Vengeance, and I felt bad for him. This is not something Anders would have supported and I think he came back to himself a little afterwards and felt regret and doubt.

A big theme in DA2 seems to be something like "the rode to hell is paved with good intentions". Hawke tried to help throughout the game but ultimately made things worse, meredith wanted to protect her people and was warped by this, Anders thought he was doing a good thing by merging with justice but that quickly soured.

Very interesting.

Anders knew that what he was doing was the "wrong thing" even before the event, but Justice was in control at that point.  He could only plan to die afterwards.  He knew that doing what Justice wanted and being killed as a result would "free" him finally, but at least a part of him wanted this, or else he would have just killed himself ahead of time...thus, he felt he deserved his fate.

I feel like he did the wrong thing for the right reasons.  I feel for him...but the greatest mercy would be to kill him and let him be free of the guilt and consequences of being bound to Justice.

I agree except that Anders was not under Justices control, and neither Justice under Anders. They melt and there is no way to seperate them other than killing them. Anders represents the wish for freedom. When Justice, as in the strong sense of justice and willingness to execute it by all means, melt with Anders basically a new Anders was born. The one who not only wished freedom for himself, but for all mages and make those who are in his eyes the culprits pay.

[TheCreeper]

Anders didn't do the right thing, what he did might in the long run be good for mages and thedas, maybe. Really all he did by blowing up the chantry was make the mage/templar war start sooner. It was always going to go to come to a head sooner or later, heck it may have started that later that night, The commander was going to go through with the search no matter what and if the grand cleric and Champion did not support her, things would not end well.

[TobiTobsen]

Sabariel wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

And yet Harrowed Mages were lobotomized anyway... and not just by the crazy Templar. Curious...

*cough cough* Lyrium Idol of mysterious origin *cough*

Karl was lobotomized before the idol is even discovered.

Didn't read the whole thread and I dont know if somebody already mentioned it, but when you loot the Templar Lieutenant that leads the party who attack you when you reach Karl, than you'll find al letter of Ser Alrik who threatens the Lieutenant to not run to Meredith because of Alriks order to tranquil Karl or he will have him "removed" from the order.

[syllogi]

AlexXIV wrote...

I agree except that Anders was not under Justices control, and neither Justice under Anders. They melt and there is no way to seperate them other than killing them. Anders represents the wish for freedom. When Justice, as in the strong sense of justice and willingness to execute it by all means, melt with Anders basically a new Anders was born. The one who not only wished freedom for himself, but for all mages and make those who are in his eyes the culprits pay.

He was under Justice's control, at least part of the time, and Justice was taking over more and more.  Check out this video, which shows what really is happening.  Justice may claim to still be Anders, and Anders might even think that he is in more control than he really is, but to me, blackouts are evidence that they are *not* completely merged, and Justice is taking away his free will.

Anders did have a "radical" view of the Chantry and it's power over mages, far before he met Justice, but I don't think he would have acted on his views, at least not on a large scale.  I've wondered why Anders from Awakening was even in this game, since his look, voice, and personality were so radically different, but I guess that was the point; Justice has changed him far more than either want to admit.

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I give up. You've been in the same position for months and no amount of discussion or evidence is going to change that. It's a waste of time for all involved.

I find that to be condescending.

You deserve to be condescended to, for all the intellectual honesty and mental flexibility you demonstrate.

As with KoP, I will wash my hands of you as well. Consider my last replies to you irrelevant, as they'll be deleted momentarily.

Why? Because I have a differing opinion than you do? I don't see why that's a valid reason to be condescending. We're allowed to have different opinions, especially since there's no "one true way" in Dragon Age when we can clearly side with the templars or the mages, and we can support or condemn what they do as well as what Anders does. It's intellectually dishonest to insinuate otherwise. It's dishonest to make claims that mages have autonomy when they're under the control of the Chantry, and Ser Thrask's entire clandestine enterprise was the first legitiment attempt to establish templars working alongside mages as partners. Are you upset that I don't villify Anders for wanting to free his people? I don't see why you seem so angry because I have a different opinion than you do. Can't we discuss this issue like reasonable adults?

[Pileyourbodies]

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

No, I'm supporting the emancipation of slaves, and I addressed that the examples made against Anders don't fit in the context that he's trying to end slavery.

[Jester12]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jester12 wrote...

He did what he thought was right. Wasn't the best idea because he pushed the crazy bastard Meredith over the edge but.. What can he do. As for the right thing i dont know about that. He screwed a lot of mages and even pushed Orsino into blood magic. Which was completely dumb.

Orsino already knew the blood magic.  He had been hiding it.

You are correct of course. I'm just saying it was pointless because he sacrificed himself and all he did was add another boss fight into the mix before the end. He would have been more useful to the mages as a leader to look up to

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

No, I'm supporting the emancipation of slaves, and I addressed that the examples made against Anders don't fit in the context that he's trying to end slavery.

The mages are no more slaves than someone under house arrest.

[Vilegrim]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

No, I'm supporting the emancipation of slaves, and I addressed that the examples made against Anders don't fit in the context that he's trying to end slavery.

The mages are no more slaves than someone under house arrest.

people under house arrest are forced to take part in military actions (As was made clear in DA:O the treaty was not with the mages it was with the chantry to force the mages to march), forced to lobotomise people on the whims of others?  Forced to make others endure possession?    Because I didn't see them having the ability to say no, the Circle is at the very least a labour camp with nice furniture.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[TheRevanchist]

Actually Anders thought the idea of the Circle breaking away from the Chantry entierly was the stupidest thing mages could ever do...which in fact it is since victory for mages is pretty much immpossible due to sheer numbers alone. That video is indeed interesting...but still...he dies for it...if for no other reason then to ensure Vengence is removed from the problem.

[AlexXIV]

Jester12 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jester12 wrote...

He did what he thought was right. Wasn't the best idea because he pushed the crazy bastard Meredith over the edge but.. What can he do. As for the right thing i dont know about that. He screwed a lot of mages and even pushed Orsino into blood magic. Which was completely dumb.

Orsino already knew the blood magic.  He had been hiding it.

You are correct of course. I'm just saying it was pointless because he sacrificed himself and all he did was add another boss fight into the mix before the end. He would have been more useful to the mages as a leader to look up to

It was simply the most stupid thing anyone in the game did. He turned into an abomination and didn't even go after the templars, but his allies. He will forever be known as the most stupid first enchanter of Thedas.