1411 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

You do realize characters, and even Hawke, can refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery? It's the argument Hawke can make to Fenris to get him to side against the Templar Order.

[Pileyourbodies]

Vilegrim wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

No, I'm supporting the emancipation of slaves, and I addressed that the examples made against Anders don't fit in the context that he's trying to end slavery.

The mages are no more slaves than someone under house arrest.

people under house arrest are forced to take part in military actions (As was made clear in DA:O the treaty was not with the mages it was with the chantry to force the mages to march), forced to lobotomise people on the whims of others?  Forced to make others endure possession?  

At one point in time you could choose to serve in the military to get out of jail time.
The criminally insane have been lobotomised in the past. This is equivilent to mages who would fail their harrowing as they are deemed a danger to themselves and others.
Forced to make others endure possesssion? What? The whole point of the circles are to stop possessios.


Yes lobsel I realize that. Just because a character says that does not make it true. If we believed everything every character said then what do you do with people whom have different opinions in the game? Also while making an arguement to try to get someone NOT TO KILL YOU you can engage in some hyperbole.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[LobselVith8]

So we should ignore multiple characters calling it slavery? I disagree. In fact, I think the former Circle mage Anders would know better than any of us whether the Chantry controlled Circles is actually slavery or not, since he lived through it.

[Rawke]

So...anyone else thinking that Anders may not have been really Anders anymore when he did this? I have this theory, that the "spirit" Justice didn't turn into Vengeance because of his merging with Anders, but that it may have been Vengeance all along. What if Anders was tricked and merged with an ill-willing demon that took over Anders without him realising it, taking his desire to free mages and turning him into a terrorist and warmonger? Anders always states that he's still "him" but also merged with Justice/Vengeance. Maybe he wass less in control than he thought. I kinda doubt that the original Anders could have done what he did to achieve his goals. Killing templars and helping apostates to escape is one thing, murdering innocents and unarmed clerics on the other hand doesn't seem like something a person who named his cat Ser Pounce-a-lot would do.

[LobselVith8]

I think Anders simply wanted to see his people freed, Rawke. A thousand years of slavery, and you'd be surprised what people would do to put an end to it.

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So we should ignore multiple characters calling it slavery? I disagree. In fact, I think the former Circle mage Anders would know better than any of us whether the Chantry controlled Circles is actually slavery or not, since he lived through it.

Anders was a fanatic. Of course a fanatic that was vehemently against the circles would call them something everyone considers to be evil. You can't believe anything anders says because of 2 reasons. He is single mindly against the templars and doesn't WANT there to be compromise so he'll use everything he can against them and on the issue of slavery there is very little room for compromise. The other reason is hes an abomination, he made a pact with a demon that claims to be a spirit.

Just because Peta says farmers are slavers doesn't make it true.


You clearly don't know what slavery is. Mages are not forced to do anything but live in the circles!

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Anders isn't the only one who calls it slavery, though, and Hawke calling it such is a compelling enough argument for Fenris to side with the mages and against Meredith and her templars.

[Pileyourbodies]

Hawke can call it that to someone who was a slave. He is using allegory. The circle of magi clearly isn't slavery. It is no more slavery than Conscription.

[Luzeka]

I hate Anders more then Meredith now at least Meredith didn't wanted a war between mages and templars. We should have a dialog to kill Anders when he almost attacked that mage.

To bad we had to kill Meredith.

[LobselVith8]

Hawke is not using allegory, he's calling it slavery. I don't see why you're so persistent in trying to contradict what characters say in lore.

[Pileyourbodies]

Because it is not lore it is 2 characters opinions. 1 of whom is a fanatic and the other is trying to get his friend back. It is allegory because he is using an example that fenris could relate to.

Please answer my questions is conscription slavery? Is a prison work detail slavery?

[Shad0w Demon666]

meredith may not of been really trying for war but she was Kicking every mage in there face every time she tryed to get control if any 1 caused the war it was her anders was just a mad mage who was sick of the templars and no one stoping them from what they were doing the sad thing is he was the only 1 with the balls to do somthing about it along with hawke

[LobselVith8]

No, he's not using allegory, he's calling it slavery. There's nothing to indicate he's using allegory. You seem hung up on trying to force your opinion on this issue, but clearly characters in canon don't share your opinion, since even Hawke can call it slavery. We, as the character Hawke, are permitted to see the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. You don't share that view? That's fine, but please don't try to force your view when the story clearly has characters calling it slavery and even the main character can do the same.

[Pileyourbodies]

Shad0w Demon666 wrote...

meredith may not of been really trying for war but she was Kicking every mage in there face every time she tryed to get control if any 1 caused the war it was her anders was just a mad mage who was sick of the templars and no one stoping them from what they were doing the sad thing is he was the only 1 with the balls to do somthing about it along with hawke

An act of terrorism is not ballsy it is cowardly. Orsino till he went to blood magic was the ballsy one who publicly fought to defend mages.

You are avoiding my question sir. Is conscription slavery? What about a prison work detail? 
Definition of allegory is a representation of an abstract(The templary/mage situation) through concrete forms(Slavery, everyone knows what that is) The mage/templars is far more complicated than slavery.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[LobselVith8]

A thousand years of subjugation will push people to the edge to see their people freed. That's what happened to Anders: he wanted to free the mages. In the end, the Circles broke free from the Chantry, so Anders' gambit clearly paid off.

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So we should ignore multiple characters calling it slavery? I disagree. In fact, I think the former Circle mage Anders would know better than any of us whether the Chantry controlled Circles is actually slavery or not, since he lived through it.

Anders was even against the Ferelden Circle, which everbody else thought was pretty sweet. And the joining with Justice turned Vengance didn't helped in that matter. He just became even more deranged.

Thanks to his "rebellion" even the loyalists, aequitarians, lucrosians and isolationists will get slaughtered because he thought his extrem libertarian worldview should count for everybody.

The only thing he achieved was a war against the faction that is the exact countermeasure for mages. He made everything worse for the mages not better, if you ask me.

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A thousand years of subjugation will push people to the edge to see their people freed. That's what happened to Anders: he wanted to free the mages. In the end, the Circles broke free from the Chantry, so Anders' gambit clearly paid off.

Answer the damn question dude, is conscription slavery or prison? Neither of those are slavery but it is very similar to the mages situation.


Thank you tobi for saying something that makes sense in this thread. nice to have other voices of reason.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[LobselVith8]

By everyone else, Tobi, I assume you don't mean Irving, who thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from "their shackles" when he asks for the Magi boon. I also assume you don't mean all the mages who started a resistance with Uldred, or the Senior Enchanters who initially sided with Uldred when Loghain promised to free the Circle until Wynne revealed what happened at Ostagar.

[Vilegrim]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You can have differing opinions thats fine. I've agreed with some folks that not all mages are bad, then again i've never really said that. You however are supporting terrorism, note that most of the mage supports never bring up anders as a good exmaple of a mage because hes a ****** poor example.

No, I'm supporting the emancipation of slaves, and I addressed that the examples made against Anders don't fit in the context that he's trying to end slavery.

The mages are no more slaves than someone under house arrest.

people under house arrest are forced to take part in military actions (As was made clear in DA:O the treaty was not with the mages it was with the chantry to force the mages to march), forced to lobotomise people on the whims of others?  Forced to make others endure possession?  

At one point in time you could choose to serve in the military to get out of jail time.
The criminally insane have been lobotomised in the past. This is equivilent to mages who would fail their harrowing as they are deemed a danger to themselves and others.
Forced to make others endure possesssion? What? The whole point of the circles are to stop possessios.

the forced possession is called the harrowing.  Military service doesn't get them out of  'jail time' they get nothing for it, part from the risk of dying in the chantries wars.   Lobotomisisng the mentally ill was evil, thats why we stopped, so becuase we did it it's fine? So racism fine, anti-semitism fine, purges fine, concentration camps fine..really?

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

By everyone else, Tobi, I assume you don't mean Irving, who thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from "their shackles" when he asks for the Magi boon. I also assume you don't mean all the mages who started a resistance with Uldred, or the Senior Enchanters who initially sided with Uldred when Loghain promised to free the Circle until Wynne revealed what happened at Ostagar.

Prisoners are also in shackles Lobsel. You are avoiding the question and now you're just trolling. 

Its not forced possession it is forcing you to face your fears so that you can fight off demonic possession. 

[LobselVith8]

Pile, you don't like the fact that characters call it and consider it slavery? Take it up with the writers of the game. Honestly, I have no interest in explaining why your opinion isn't fact when characters in the actual game, including the possibility of a pro-Mage Hawke, don't share it. This discussion isn't getting us anywhere. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to force your opinion as fact, especially when characters in canon don't share it.

[Vilegrim]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

By everyone else, Tobi, I assume you don't mean Irving, who thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from "their shackles" when he asks for the Magi boon. I also assume you don't mean all the mages who started a resistance with Uldred, or the Senior Enchanters who initially sided with Uldred when Loghain promised to free the Circle until Wynne revealed what happened at Ostagar.

Prisoners are also in shackles Lobsel. You are avoiding the question and now you're just trolling. 

Its not forced possession it is forcing you to face your fears so that you can fight off demonic possession. 

so deliebratly summoning a demon and forcing a mage to fight it in a battle of wills is fine? Maybe all humans then should be placed in a sensory deprivation tank for a year, and only those that emerge sane allowed to live.

[LobselVith8]

Please refrain from calling me names simply because I don't share your view on the issue, Pile. I don't share your view on mages. I don't share your view on Anders. Clearly, we disagree. That's fine, because characters in Dragon Age disagree about these issues, too. We are allowed to have our opinion, which is why we can side with templars or mages, and why we can spare or condemn Anders, because we're allowed to do so.

[Everwarden]

Responding to the OP:

Well, considering it got him exactly what he wanted, Anders did the right thing. 

[RubiconI7]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

That edging towards attacking religion in general...better be careful.

But anyway, Anders' decision to blow up the Chantry destroyed the chance for a compromise between the crazy Meredith and crazy Orsino. Elthina seems to be the only one that is normal albeith being old. Since both political parties, namely the templars and the cricle, has to bow down to the Chantry, it serves as a mitigating mechanism that can stop exactly what happens in Kirkwall.

I agree with your consequentialism of how if things needs to be better, sacrifices are needed. But our definition of better is probably pretty different. Anders, in this regard, forced his definition on everyone in Kirkwall and in turn Thedas. He is, in this sense, no more than a ultra-left terrorist doing what he thinks is right and forcing his right on everyone.