1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Please refrain from calling me names simply because I don't share your view on the issue, Pile. I don't share your view on mages. I don't share your view on Anders. Clearly, we disagree. That's fine, because characters in Dragon Age disagree about these issues, too. We are allowed to have our opinion, which is why we can side with templars or mages, and why we can spare or condemn Anders, because we're allowed to do so.

I'm not name calling you, I'll gladly take back the troll comment as soon as you answer the question.
Is conscription slavery?
Is prison slavery?
Its not that you disagree with me personally but you disagree with the english language on what slavery is your definition of slavery is extremly broad and simply wrong. Just because we can have opinions doesn't mean all opinions are right, some...nay Most opinions are wrong.

It has been pointed out time and time again that my opinion on all mages being a danger is wrong and i accept the fact that there are good mages. That does not invalidate the fact that mages are dangerous as a whole and what the issue is or my argument.


Sacrafices need not be lives. The indian people sacraficed greatly to get their freedom but not that many lives, Muslim terrorists in india didn't get them their freedom but the masses of people who boycotted british goods sometimes at a great loss of profit to themselves, is what got India freedom.

The Civil rights movement made sacrafices again in monetary ways but not in lives to get what they wanted.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 05:15 .

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

By everyone else, Tobi, I assume you don't mean Irving, who thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from "their shackles" when he asks for the Magi boon. I also assume you don't mean all the mages who started a resistance with Uldred, or the Senior Enchanters who initially sided with Uldred when Loghain promised to free the Circle until Wynne revealed what happened at Ostagar.

Uldred and his lot are libertarians, so of course I expect them to be not happy about the circle. And of course Irving thanks you. I believe every mage would love to have no templar watching over their shoulder but in the end there seem to be many that accept it including Irving. Because the last time I checked he didn't bombed the Denerim Chantry, screamed libertarian propaganda and chuckled because now everybody hast to fight or die, even if they didn't want to.

But I think we discussed that in another thread already and couldn't find a common ground. But since that seems to be exactly what Bioware wanted, I think they did a pretty good job

[LobselVith8]

You consider me a troll because I have a different view than you do, and you expect me to engage in dialogue with you about a view that characters in the storyline have about the Circle as it was when the Chantry and the templars controlled them? You seem intent on challenging the views of characters in canon, including the possibility of a mage Hawke, who see the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. I simply don't see the purpose in it when the definition of slavery in it's entirely has been brought up in the past to address why there were people who saw mages as slaves, and the discussion still went nowhere.

[Vilegrim]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Please refrain from calling me names simply because I don't share your view on the issue, Pile. I don't share your view on mages. I don't share your view on Anders. Clearly, we disagree. That's fine, because characters in Dragon Age disagree about these issues, too. We are allowed to have our opinion, which is why we can side with templars or mages, and why we can spare or condemn Anders, because we're allowed to do so.

I'm not name calling you, I'll gladly take back the troll comment as soon as you answer the question.
Is conscription slavery?
Is prison slavery?
Its not that you disagree with me personally but you disagree with the english language on what slavery is your definition of slavery is extremly broad and simply wrong. Just because we can have opinions doesn't mean all opinions are right, some...nay Most opinions are wrong.

It has been pointed out time and time again that my opinion on all mages being a danger is wrong and i accept the fact that there are good mages. That does not invalidate the fact that mages are dangerous as a whole and what the issue is or my argument.


Sacrafices need not be lives. The indian people sacraficed greatly to get their freedom but not that many lives, Muslim terrorists in india didn't get them their freedom but the masses of people who boycotted british goods sometimes at a great loss of profit to themselves, is what got India freedom.

The Civil rights movement made sacrafices again in monetary ways but not in lives to get what they wanted.

incomparable situations should be refering to the Warsaw uprising or Soviet partisans.


Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work.[1] Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. In some historical situations it has been legal for owners to kill slaves.[2]

Sounds EXACTLY like the chantry.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[Volourn]

"Is conscription slavery? What about a prison work detail? "

Yes, to both.

[Pileyourbodies]

Mages are not treated as property nor are they forced to work. They are held against their will but they are given compensation. Mages can earn money! they do buy things they do have a role in the economy. The only way that mages are slaves are that they're held against their will.

Conscription is a price you pay for getting to live in that country. You are paid.
A prison work detail is a price you pay for commiting a crime.

[MaximusPhoenix]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think many people are misunderstanding the point of what Anders was doing. I also think the OP completely missed the point as well. Anders didn't do it as some huge scheme to destroy religion and everyone who believes in the maker (The op seems to think that). He did it because Elthina was a constant neutral force between Orsino and Meridith. She was always keeping them from breaking out into war, which seems right but things were not able to continue the way they were. Meridith was mad, if you can't see that you are out of your mind, something NEEDED To change and Anders pushed the buttons to do it. Another attack on the Templar's would NOT have been enough. Think about it, the mages had been battling the Templars through Thrask's mini revolution long before that, and while it was causing Meridith to get edgy (when was she not), Elthina was still going to talk them down.

He also knew exactly what he was doing. Why do you think he spent time talking to you and Varric in a tone that implyed he was going to die soon? It's because he knew he would be killed for his actions. The point is that as wrong as his action was at the time, it will have an effect in the future for the better for mages. Looking past the point that it gets Meredith out of the picture but it's also a sign to mages around Thedas that they need not be pushed into slavery anymore. It's kind of a situation where unfortanately people die, but their deaths prove a point in the future to prevent history from repeating itself. As horrible as it may seem now, it was the right thing to do when thinking of the long term.

Also, I am not condoning acts of terrorism, this is a video game so don't start with that crap. And unfortunately sometimes things need to happen this way in order for change to occur, if you don't believe that just read some history books.

This.

Also, the Grand Cleric may have been innocent in terms of her not doing anything directly or physically against the mages, but she was in a position of great power as well, especially when it came to the Templars.
    Sometimes doing nothing at all, turning a blind eye is worse than commiting a crime. (teachers/religious figures/police/parents etc...) just letting things slide.

Lastly, this is different than the situation going on in DA2; but look at what has been happening in Egypt and especially Libya lately....so many innocent people have died already there in the corssfire, but in a country like that, drastic measures have to be taken in order for peace and democracy.
    For the past 40 years people there have been trying other ways(non-violent) to change things for the better. It has not been working that way.

[Kabraxal]

I can't believe people are defending this... it was an act of terrorism. He killed innocent people just to incite a "war for freedom". This isn't someone becoming a vigilante and hunting down murderers or slavers, like Hawke can do. This is an entirely different beast.

Terrorism is always wrong. If you have to become a monster to "win" your freedom, you've already lost the real war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MaximusPhoenix wrote...
Lastly, this is different than the situation going on in DA2; but look at what has been happening in Egypt and especially Libya lately....so many innocent people have died already there in the corssfire, but in a country like that, drastic measures have to be taken in order for peace and democracy.
    For the past 40 years people there have been trying other ways(non-violent) to change things for the better. It has not been working that way.

This was a popular initiative. Made by a large number of people, with majority support. No one decided for them to do this. And the one in Egypt was for the most part peaceful. It did not resort to acts of violence or terror. And the army did not fight them.

With Anders, it's completely different. He thinks  he is qualified to make the choice of "live free or die" to ALL mages. On what basis? He forces them into a corner. It was not the mages together rising up as an initiative.
In addition, what Anders did will succesfully alienate all mages from mostly everyone else, aka 99% of the population. Also drastically different from the examples you are using.

As for Anders' action possibly resulting in something positive. Assuming that the mages can win this, which is very much in doubt, the one who should be getting the credit for making it better is the person who actually plans, thinks, strategizes and leads. Not the one who blows up a building and then expects a leader to come and rescue them (like he says to Hawke). If he knows he is not qualified to create a new future, then he should stfu and worry about himself only instead of decide something for ALL mages that never heard of him. A fool might be convenient, but he remains a fool. And again, that's assuming that his actions won't lead to something even worse.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[Rafe34]

TJPags wrote...

JulianoV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ahem.

Didn't Meredith block the proposal of mass Tranquility?

Shhhh . . .don't confuse people convinced of Templar abuse with silly little facts.

It remains my impression that the source of the unrest, the source of the many rumors of widespead Templar abuse of mages, is Anders himself.

Anyone who thinks that man didn't have an agenda, or just came up with the whole "let's have a revolution!!!" idea right before the end of the game, is missing something, IMO.

That would be a shame, I tend to enjoy silly little facts, and most of the time I do not to get easily confused. 

I'm quite certain Anders was meaning to do something drastic from the very beggining. He knew himself he was a liability and spend the whole game being all emo saying you shouldn't be so nice to him, that he would only break your dreams, yadda-yadda. 

I'll be perfectly honest here, most of my sympathy comes from Justice. I just can't easily accept the fact that by killing Anders I'll just release a Vengeance Justice on the Fade, not after enjoying the character so much in Awakening.  Anders, he went from a flamboyant careless prancing dude to an emo complainy-pants.

The magi, however, ARE oppressed, and the templars went way overboard on Kirkwall. Anders did not measure words when he said he wanted to see the mages free. Unless his plan was to escape each and every one of them until there were 100 templars around a single scared mage 24/7, I don't see any other way to achieve this than through a revolution.

Magic is dangerous. Compromising one's humanity in order to contain a danger is a danger in itself. Turning people into potatoes because they don't accept being taken away for an unvoluntary crime is not a nice thing. One can try and measure how much of a necessary evil it is, but it is not a good thing.

Anders gave the magi a fighting chance. They rallied under the image of one of them that was not willing to accept this pathetic reality that's imposed on them. I believe developers handled the mages poorly by going "HA, TAKE THAT, THEY WERE ALL SUPER EVIL ALL ALONG AND YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR LISTENING TO REASON AND BASIC HUMAN DIGNITY VALUES" after presenting them as poor animals in a cage.

Duality was lost when one could barely remember the many mages that were completely at a loss running around refusing to cede to the temptation screaming at their ears knowing at any point a templar could take them away during the confusion in the streets.

Instead we're given a bunch of blood mages cutting themselves like it's super fun and spreading havoc. I totally understand the preference for templars, but I'm trying to present a counterpoint that's a bit more enticing than "but Anders is sexy" in order to get something better than "Anders is a dumb moron".

The story deserves better, at least on their forums. Silly little facts notwithstanding.

Hey, I'm absolutely in favor of shades of grey in decision making.  In the real world, things are rarely black and white.  While that can be the case in a game, obviously, I think it makes a BETTER game when choices aren't easy.

I'd have been fine if we had evidence of widespread Templar abuse.  But I didn't see it.

Sure, we heard rumors - and a lot of talk from Anders - about it.  But we didn't see it.

We hear about the imminent Tranquil Solution - but find that it was shot down, by Meredith no less.

We see one small group of crazy Templars - led by the same guy Bethany mentioned in her letter as being scary.  And we kill him.  And not one Templar makes a fuss - in fact, if you talk to Cullen, he says the guy was out of control.

We see Anders Tranquil friend - but are never told what he did to be made Tranquil.  He very well may have deserved it.

We hear about mages being locked in the rooms - yet the streets remain full of insane blood mages attacking us left and right.

We hear Meredith is concerned about mages actions - and virtually every mage we see is a blood mage.

We see Templars meeting with Mages to discuss removing Meredith - which meeting ends with a Blood Mage killing the lead Templar there, and then trying to kill us.

When Bethany was caught and brought to the Circle, I figured it would be a big "you have to fight to rescue your sister" moment.  Instead, we get a letter telling us how happ she is.

I'm not saying people are wrong to have supported mages - it's a valid option, and people who feel strongly that mages shouldn't be stuck in the Circle should side with the mages.  That's fine with me.

I made my initial choice to side with the Templars, though.  I recognized that Meredith had gone bat**** crazy, and figured she'd have to go, but given the widespread insane mage situation, I thought it was the way to go.

I only changed my mind when Anders went BOOM, and Meredith wanted to go with the Right of Annulment, instead of arresting him.  That's when I decided I wasn't going for that, and helped the mages. 

Of course, that only led to Orsino going all insane blood mage, which I think justified my original position, but too late then. 

So, I'm fine with people thinking mages shouldn't be locked up in general.  However, I certainly think the rabid insane blood mage population of Kirkwall needs to be put down like a rabid dog.  And I think those rumors about widespread abuse were started by Anders.

Not sure if someone has pointed this out, but there was clearly a second instance of a Templar was who was "mad with power." The one in the Act of Mercy quest, where you help Thrask bring back the mages who escaped from the Kirkhaven circle. If you choose a particular line of dialogue, he refuses to allow them back, despite the fact that they surrendered, and is going to kill/tranquilize them unless the PC intervenes. It's pretty clear from his lines and the way he delivers them that he is "evil." Sir Karthras, I believe was his name.

[TheRevanchist]

Dude...just because characters in the game say it is somthing...does not automaticly mean thats what it is...everything out characters mouths does not = iron clad fact. Characters can be wrong just like people in real life can be wrong, just because the word is used in the game does not mean the word is being used correctly...just like how Shepard in ME1 misuses Machiovely people in DA are capable of useing things in an incorrect manner. Just because the writers makes them say it does not mean thats what it is, the characters are created to simulate people which in turn can have biased opinions...which does not equal cold hard facts. The situation with Mages is not slavery...pure and simple...you can disagree all you want but that is fact...not an opinion. Mages are not cattle that can be bought, sold and traded to the highest bidder, they are not whiped for their imputence, they are not branded with red hot irons to distinguish who owns them, they are not slautered for something as meaningless as impressing neighbors, they are not sent to work camps to work 24 hour shifts until they collapse dead from over-exercstion, they are not pushed off of cliffs to be fed to their masters pet dragons, they do not have raw Lyrium burned into their flesh just so their master can impress themselves, they are not forced to fight in gladatorial arenas until they die a painful death that appeases their masters. Really I can go on all day but it's pointless.

Mages are taken as children because it's dangerous to leave a mage unsupervised, let alone one who knows nothing of what they will face their entire life and endangers their entire family due to their lack of knowledge of the dangers they face. They are forced into Harrowings to prove they were paying attention in class and know just how dangerous demons can be. Refuseing this proves you are unwilling to show you are responsible and able to resist demonic temptation. If a Mage fails their Harrowing they are not slautered like an animal...because the demon has already eaten their soul and the Templars are preventing a demon from being unleashed upon the world. Tranquilization is reserved for those who are suspected of blood magic and those who refuse their Harrowing, while it's impossible to say cutting them down where they stand would be recived any better some sort of action is required for these groups of people. They cannot be allowed to remain as they are because they are a threat to everyone within the Circle as well as themselves, possibly even beyond the Circle should they escape. Mages who have succesfuly compleated their Harrowings are free the leave the Circle if they have business to do so, as long as evetuanlly they come back, they are not clamped in irons and continuesly spat on for simply living because if that was the case they would simply kill every mage child they found rather then waste their time letting them learn the dangers of the life they will live. As for taking the children of Mages away from them...thats the only thing I personally cannot understand but this post proves my point far beyond this one example.

Mages are free to basicly do whatever their hearts desire within reason, even fool around with one another in a playful manner, as the Mage origins proves your even allowed to flirt with Templars if you wish with varying degress of sucsess. They cannot be allowed to be forever free to wander the world because the threats of the The Fade are always present to a mage. At any moment a mage could become an abomonation and go Redcliffe on whereever they are. Sure, a typical crazy guy could go nuts at any moment and kill people. But hes not going to reanimate the dead corpse and use them for a private army to to kill even more people with. Your average run of the mill guards can stop the average mad-man...but they are virtually powerless against aa blood mage or an abomonation. Templars are given special training and are taught uniqe abilitys to specificlly combat these things...and even they are met with failure on many occasion...so what hope does the average soldier or civilian have? This game proves that Mages are more then willing to resort to these awful pratices to get what they want want, doing nothing accept proving why Templars are nessasary. Whats to stop a mage from using blood magic to brainwash a woman into sexual intercourse? thats even worse then a crazy man raping a woman because at least with crazy man she has the ability to resist and cry for help whereas the blood mage turned her into a mindless slave of his will for the duration of the event. Whats to stop a blood mage from causeing the blood in a mans veins to explode from the inside simply because he angered him? If a crazy man becomes angred he stabs the man instead or beats the crap out of him...there is a chance of saving the victoms life if messures are taken quickly enough in the latter case...the former? not a snowballs chance in hell. Whats to stop a group of crazy blood mages from kidnapping innocent people and forceing demons into their bodies for whatever reaons they posses in their half crazed state? No normal insane man is capable of anything similar. You can say "but not all mages use blood magic" well according to this game...they all are more then willing to do so when it comes to somthing they want, whatever that desire may be, be it freedom, love, companionship or whatever else. If they want it they will resort to vile and despical means to take it and will not take no for an answer reguardless of what the victims of these crimes might think. No Templar can replicate these types of horrific atrocitys, period. What you simply refuse to acknowledge is the situation in Kirkwall is unique to Kirkwall, most Templars do not resemble the mind-set of Meredith and Alrik. The Right of Annulment is not an inherintly evil thing either, because most Templars reserve that for situations like the Ferelden Circle when the situation is almost entierly devoid of hope of survivors. Gregior requested permission to use it...as well as reinforcements to carry it out. He did not take upon himself to scream "KILL THE MONSTERS!" because thats not a Templars job, a Templars job is to destroy abomonations and blood magic whereever found by any means, as well as protect the innocent from the dangers of magic and protecting the mages from the dangers of the masses since most of the average populace is fearful and distrustful of magic (for damn good reason I might add)

Case in point is that Mages are not the victoms you want them to be, they are treated far better then any slave could possibly imagine and most actual slaves would kill for the life they have.

Modifié par kylecouch, 17 mars 2011 - 07:09 .

[Reinveil]

I was positively surprised by what an idiotic and pointless plot twist that ended up being. The wisecracking healer that spends the entire game prattling on and on and on about the rights of mages basically justifies all the issues people have with them (along with Orsino) with an act of murder and terrorism that forces everyone's hands. After I spent 30 hours taking endless flak from Fenris and various minor characters for sympathizing with mages.

Honestly, the last few hours of this game couldn't have been more poorly conceived if Bioware tried.

[MaximusPhoenix]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Mages are not treated as property nor are they forced to work. They are held against their will but they are given compensation. Mages can earn money! they do buy things they do have a role in the economy. The only way that mages are slaves are that they're held against their will.

Conscription is a price you pay for getting to live in that country. You are paid.
A prison work detail is a price you pay for commiting a crime.

WTF...same s***, different pile if you ask me...

[Vilegrim]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Mages are not treated as property nor are they forced to work. They are held against their will but they are given compensation. Mages can earn money! they do buy things they do have a role in the economy. The only way that mages are slaves are that they're held against their will.

Conscription is a price you pay for getting to live in that country. You are paid.
A prison work detail is a price you pay for commiting a crime.

yes they are..didn't you get the mandatory life long consription to the chantries military? IT was how you got mages in DA:O after all, no objections moral or otherwise, you are a weapon of the chantry and your life is theirs to spend as they see fit, not your own, you where born into this servitude and will die in it, that sounds like forced labour to me.  You WILL worship the maker or be made tranquil, you WILL stay in the tower or be made traquil, you WILL fight and die at the Divines command, no choice, no options, no freedom.

Hell roman slaves got paid . So unless you are claiming that romans didn't practice slavery...

Question for you: Do you consider what happened in the Gulags under Stalin to have been slavery? 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[TobiTobsen]

Vilegrim wrote...

You WILL worship the maker or be made tranquil, you WILL stay in the tower or be made traquil, you WILL fight and die at the Divines command, no choice, no options, no freedom.

That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 17 mars 2011 - 07:38 .

[Vilegrim]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

You WILL worship the maker or be made tranquil, you WILL stay in the tower or be made traquil, you WILL fight and die at the Divines command, no choice, no options, no freedom.

That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

oops shouldn't have had the second be made tranquil..but it is true, do some investigation in DA:O it is certainly implied strongly that all elves who do not convert mysteriously fail there harrowing.... or never live that long.

[TobiTobsen]

Vilegrim wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

You WILL worship the maker or be made tranquil, you WILL stay in the tower or be made traquil, you WILL fight and die at the Divines command, no choice, no options, no freedom.

That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

oops shouldn't have had the second be made tranquil..but it is true, do some investigation in DA:O it is certainly implied strongly that all elves who do not convert mysteriously fail there harrowing.... or never live that long.

Could you tell me your source for that? I can't remember to have read something like that

[Pileyourbodies]

To me living in a communist society would be no better than slavery. As all of the prisoners were convicts then no the gulags were not slavery. They were not nice but they were not slavery. The soviet system was broken and unjust as people who spoke out were sent to gulags or executed unlike the circle of magi who were allowed to speak out, Orsino for example spoke out quite a bit.

Not all mages would be called to serve in the chantries military, i imagine most would be regarded as not being good enough to do anything militarily as the vast majority of mages seem to not be that good with magic and other than high ranking ones they seem to know mostly defensive abilities.

I don't remember reading the elf thing either, theres a lot of discrimination about elves however and that is part of the culture of Thedas not just the templars you can't say well since templars are racist the systems evil! most people are racist, this doesn't make the system Evil it makes it Broken.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[MaximusPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...

Dude...just because characters in the game say it is somthing...does not automaticly mean thats what it is...everything out characters mouths does not = iron clad fact. Characters can be wrong just like people in real life can be wrong, just because the word is used in the game does not mean the word is being used correctly...just like how Shepard in ME1 misuses Machiovely people in DA are capable of useing things in an incorrect manner. Just because the writers makes them say it does not mean thats what it is, the characters are created to simulate people which in turn can have biased opinions...which does not equal cold hard facts. The situation with Mages is not slavery...pure and simple...you can disagree all you want but that is fact...not an opinion. Mages are not cattle that can be bought, sold and traded to the highest bidder, they are not whiped for their imputence, they are not branded with red hot irons to distinguish who owns them, they are not slautered for something as meaningless as impressing neighbors, they are not sent to work camps to work 24 hour shifts until they collapse dead from over-exercstion, they are not pushed off of cliffs to be fed to their masters pet dragons, they do not have raw Lyrium burned into their flesh just so their master can impress themselves, they are not forced to fight in gladatorial arenas until they die a painful death that appeases their masters. Really I can go on all day but it's pointless.

Mages are taken as children because it's dangerous to leave a mage unsupervised, let alone one who knows nothing of what they will face their entire life and endangers their entire family due to their lack of knowledge of the dangers they face. They are forced into Harrowings to prove they were paying attention in class and know just how dangerous demons can be. Refuseing this proves you are unwilling to show you are responsible and able to resist demonic temptation. If a Mage fails their Harrowing they are not slautered like an animal...because the demon has already eaten their soul and the Templars are preventing a demon from being unleashed upon the world. Tranquilization is reserved for those who are suspected of blood magic and those who refuse their Harrowing, while it's impossible to say cutting them down where they stand would be recived any better some sort of action is required for these groups of people. They cannot be allowed to remain as they are because they are a threat to everyone within the Circle as well as themselves, possibly even beyond the Circle should they escape. Mages who have succesfuly compleated their Harrowings are free the leave the Circle if they have business to do so, as long as evetuanlly they come back, they are not clamped in irons and continuesly spat on for simply living because if that was the case they would simply kill every mage child they found rather then waste their time letting them learn the dangers of the life they will live. As for taking the children of Mages away from them...thats the only thing I personally cannot understand but this post proves my point far beyond this one example.

Mages are free to basicly do whatever their hearts desire within reason, even fool around with one another in a playful manner, as the Mage origins proves your even allowed to flirt with Templars if you wish with varying degress of sucsess. They cannot be allowed to be forever free to wander the world because the threats of the The Fade are always present to a mage. At any moment a mage could become an abomonation and go Redcliffe on whereever they are. Sure, a typical crazy guy could go nuts at any moment and kill people. But hes not going to reanimate the dead corpse and use them for a private army to to kill even more people with. Your average run of the mill guards can stop the average mad-man...but they are virtually powerless against aa blood mage or an abomonation. Templars are given special training and are taught uniqe abilitys to specificlly combat these things...and even they are met with failure on many occasion...so what hope does the average soldier or civilian have? This game proves that Mages are more then willing to resort to these awful pratices to get what they want want, doing nothing accept proving why Templars are nessasary. Whats to stop a mage from using blood magic to brainwash a woman into sexual intercourse? thats even worse then a crazy man raping a woman because at least with crazy man she has the ability to resist and cry for help whereas the blood mage turned her into a mindless slave of his will for the duration of the event. Whats to stop a blood mage from causeing the blood in a mans veins to explode from the inside simply because he angered him? If a crazy man becomes angred he stabs the man instead or beats the crap out of him...there is a chance of saving the victoms life if messures are taken quickly enough in the latter case...the former? not a snowballs chance in hell. Whats to stop a group of crazy blood mages from kidnapping innocent people and forceing demons into their bodies for whatever reaons they posses in their half crazed state? No normal insane man is capable of anything similar. You can say "but not all mages use blood magic" well according to this game...they all are more then willing to do so when it comes to somthing they want, whatever that desire may be, be it freedom, love, companionship or whatever else. If they want it they will resort to vile and despical means to take it and will not take no for an answer reguardless of what the victims of these crimes might think. No Templar can replicate these types of horrific atrocitys, period. What you simply refuse to acknowledge is the situation in Kirkwall is unique to Kirkwall, most Templars do not resemble the mind-set of Meredith and Alrik. The Right of Annulment is not an inherintly evil thing either, because most Templars reserve that for situations like the Ferelden Circle when the situation is almost entierly devoid of hope of survivors. Gregior requested permission to use it...as well as reinforcements to carry it out. He did not take upon himself to scream "KILL THE MONSTERS!" because thats not a Templars job, a Templars job is to destroy abomonations and blood magic whereever found by any means, as well as protect the innocent from the dangers of magic and protecting the mages from the dangers of the masses since most of the average populace is fearful and distrustful of magic (for damn good reason I might add)

Case in point is that Mages are not the victoms you want them to be, they are treated far better then any slave could possibly imagine and most actual slaves would kill for the life they have.

OK 1st off, massive wall of text, skimmed through a lot of it, but my understanding from you is "punish all for the POSSIBLE crimes of another, or the possible crimes of your future"...sorry but that is not right, in any part of society...if someone has done something illegal, you prosecute them on an INDIVIDUAL basis.
   I've said this earlier and I'll say it again. Freedom with attached assumed actions and freedom after proving yourself innocent 1st is not freedom to begin with"

This reminds me of those black & white televison/newspaper ads from decades ago that were saying something along the lines of "you can be friends with homosexuals, but we can't let them become teachers because they may rape our children"

[MorningBird]

TobiTobsen wrote...
That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

Actually, it's strongly implied (if you talk to Cullen during the mage origin) that there are 'freaky' templars in the Ferelden circle as well.  Templars who enjoy and look forward to the prospect of cutting down mages.  Templars who will act first and ask questions never.  The templar who is after Anders in Awakening, actually, is one such templar.

That being said, I agree that the Ferelden Circle is better than the one in Kirkwall.  However, I also think that the Ferelden Circle is the exception, not the rule.

The circle in Orlais, for example, isn't any better than the one in Kirkwall.  It's such a breeding ground for fear and discontent that Fiona ('The Calling') BEGGED to be recruited as a Grey Warden to get out of it.

On the subject of tranquility, I disagree with it completely.  In origins, one could argue that it was a positive alternative to death, but in DA2, you learn that tranquility IS death.  Karl is perfectly happy with being made tranquil until he remembers what it was like to live, and when his memories and emotions do return he requests death.

Stating that 'only mages who don't pass their Harrowing can be made tranquil' does nothing to ease my mind about the entire process.  Way I see it, if a mage is so dangerous that you literally have to cut off their connection to the Fade (they're a murderer who endangers the lives of others, a blood mage who won't give up their practice, mentally unstable, an abomination, etc...) they should be killed for (in some cases) willfully posing a threat to the lives of others, just like how (in Dragon Age) you would kill someone for randomly assaulting you in the streets.

Otherwise, mages have a right to life. If something goes wrong, that's what templars are for.  If the knights in the Templar Order are so afraid of facing down demons and abominations that they would rather physically/emotionally kill a mage to eliminate the 'possibility' of them becoming one, then they shouldn't be templars, imo.

[TobiTobsen]

MorningBird wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

Actually, it's strongly implied (if you talk to Cullen during the mage origin) that there are 'freaky' templars in the Ferelden circle as well.  Templars who enjoy and look forward to the prospect of cutting down mages.  Templars who will act first and ask questions never.  The templar who is after Anders in Awakening, actually, is one such templar.

I remember the talk with Cullen you are refering to. But in the end i would say that we just hear about it. Never see it. The most extreme Templar we see in the Ferelden Circle is Cullen himself, after Uldred took over. Maybe there are Templars who would enjoy it to kill the mages in the Ferelden Circle but I don't think that under Greagoirs command anyone would be allowed to misuse their position of authority like the Templars in Kirkwall.

As far as I understood the situation with the Templar in Awakening it wasn't the problem that the one in charge just liked to kill mages. She thought that Anders had killed the group that had escortet him to Vigils Keep and wanted revenge for that and the fact that Anders kept mocking the Order with his escapes, iirc. So not directly the same sort of wrongdoing the "freaky" () Templars in Kirkwall show.

[Arppis]

AyraWinla wrote...

In both Dragon Age 1 and 2, I have been extremely forgiving. I insisted on saving Loghain, and basically forgave everyone I could. I tried to be neutral and protect peace as much as I could, siding with the mages when I was forced to choose, since Orsino was less radical. I ultimately joined with the mages, and although I'm always forgiving, nice, and believe in second chances...

I killed Anders. That's just how wrong, evil and misguided I saw his actions to be. Countless dying because of his actions... And he believes himself a martyr to be venerated!

Anders definitively gets my "Most hated videogame character" award, although Branka does rank up there too...

Same thing here, been the "Arbiter" in the both games, always doing the "right" thing for everyone. But I just couldn't let Anders live. There was no way after what he did.

[Sabariel]

TobiTobsen wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

Actually, it's strongly implied (if you talk to Cullen during the mage origin) that there are 'freaky' templars in the Ferelden circle as well.  Templars who enjoy and look forward to the prospect of cutting down mages.  Templars who will act first and ask questions never.  The templar who is after Anders in Awakening, actually, is one such templar.

I remember the talk with Cullen you are refering to. But in the end i would say that we just hear about it. Never see it. The most extreme Templar we see in the Ferelden Circle is Cullen himself, after Uldred took over. Maybe there are Templars who would enjoy it to kill the mages in the Ferelden Circle but I don't think that under Greagoirs command anyone would be allowed to misuse their position of authority like the Templars in Kirkwall.

As far as I understood the situation with the Templar in Awakening it wasn't the problem that the one in charge just liked to kill mages. She thought that Anders had killed the group that had escortet him to Vigils Keep and wanted revenge for that and the fact that Anders kept mocking the Order with his escapes, iirc. So not directly the same sort of wrongdoing the "freaky" () Templars in Kirkwall show.

I think Rylock saw the dead templars as a convenient excuse to use to hang Anders, that she didn't really believe that he killed them. But... that's just me.

Modifié par Sabariel, 17 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[Vilegrim]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

You WILL worship the maker or be made tranquil, you WILL stay in the tower or be made traquil, you WILL fight and die at the Divines command, no choice, no options, no freedom.

That's not right. The Templars are not allowed to make a mage tranquil after he passed his harrowing. The only exeption would be for the use of blood magic as in Jowans case.
It shows the corruption in the ranks of the Kirkwall Templars that they are doing it anyway.

Remember Awakening Anders? He was runnig away all the time and they just took him back to the tower. No freaky Templars in the Ferelden Circle

oops shouldn't have had the second be made tranquil..but it is true, do some investigation in DA:O it is certainly implied strongly that all elves who do not convert mysteriously fail there harrowing.... or never live that long.

Could you tell me your source for that? I can't remember to have read something like that

I'd have to do a play thru, but I think it was taking an elven mage to the Dalish camp.

Pileyourbodies wrote...
Not all mages would be called to serve in the chantries military, i imagine most would be regarded as not being good enough to do anything militarily as the vast majority of mages seem to not be that good with magic and other than high ranking ones they seem to know mostly defensive abilities.

I don't remember reading the elf thing either, theres a lot of discrimination about elves however and that is part of the culture of Thedas not just the templars you can't say well since templars are racist the systems evil! most people are racist, this doesn't make the system Evil it makes it Broken.

They are so hated in a large part because of the chantries teachings against them. 

Being unfit to serve isn't freedom to choose not to.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 17 mars 2011 - 08:51 .