1411 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximusPhoenix]

OldMan91 wrote...

Was that really a good thing he did?

It is, when coexistence favours one side over the other and there is no alternative to achieving coexistence on equal terms.

This.

[EricHVela]

OldMan91 wrote...

Was that really a good thing he did?

It is, when coexistence favours one side over the other and there is no alternative to achieving coexistence on equal terms.

Are you 100% certain that you can guarantee that there was absolutely no alternatives despite it being shown that there was a single, external influence that nobody had yet discovered?

Was there absolutely no possible way to fix the situation and put it back on track if someone took away the sword and, if necessary, Meredith?

Can you claim that you are so all-knowing?

If you claim that the game mechanics guarantee the situation, then the whole discussion is pointless.

[OldMan91]

ReggarBlane wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

Was that really a good thing he did?

It is, when coexistence favours one side over the other and there is no alternative to achieving coexistence on equal terms.

Are you 100% certain that you can guarantee that there was absolutely no alternatives despite it being shown that there was a single, external influence that nobody had yet discovered?

Was there absolutely no possible way to fix the situation and put it back on track if someone took away the sword and, if necessary, Meredith?

Can you claim that you are so all-knowing?

If you claim that the game mechanics guarantee the situation, then the whole discussion is pointless.

I never made use of game mechanics to explain anything. I don't know why you mention this.

No one is all-knowing. There is no perfect solution that I can come up with and use to solve every situation and problem. From an in-game perspective, Anders definitely felt that there was no alternative. He had previously tried to change things somewhat peacefully. He had talked to the Grand Cleric, who refused to get involved. No one knew that Meredith had a sword that was made out of the same pure lyrium as the idol, so there was never a chance to take it away in the first place. For the most part Orsino was the only one being reasonable until the end, regardless of his involvement with Quentin, and Meredith ignored calls to step down and allow a noble or Hawke him/herself to become Viscount. 

What could Anders do? He was being influenced by Justice and at the same time he was becoming impatient the little progress (assuming there was some progress) that had been made. The Templars were becoming more repressive, while Orsino called for the Grand Cleric to mediate. He was tired of compromises, so he made a radical choice.

I don't agree with his methods, as terrorism has never been very effective in exacting radical changes, and there were likely innocents dead. I can however understand why he did it, and I agree on principle that the cause of mages is one where there can be no compromises.

[Vilegrim]

ReggarBlane wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

Was that really a good thing he did?

It is, when coexistence favours one side over the other and there is no alternative to achieving coexistence on equal terms.

Are you 100% certain that you can guarantee that there was absolutely no alternatives despite it being shown that there was a single, external influence that nobody had yet discovered?

Was there absolutely no possible way to fix the situation and put it back on track if someone took away the sword and, if necessary, Meredith?

Can you claim that you are so all-knowing?

If you claim that the game mechanics guarantee the situation, then the whole discussion is pointless.

I suppose if the First Enchanter had the authority to Annul the Templars , or the Chantry for over stepping it's bounds that would be a more equal situation.

[Augustei]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

The only right thing Anders did was die when i put my knife in his back

[Jaulen]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Most wars for freedom start with what would be considered a terroristic act by those currently in power, and a heroic deed by those being opressed.

The problem with this statement:

Freedom

Far too many people think freedom means to control everything. Some think that it is different when they just want to control their own lives. To control one's own life requires one to control everything.

There's no freedom. There is only compromise. People willinging submit to others while extracting the same submission from those others for the purpose coexisting peacefully. Oppression happens when it only goes one way.

Fighting for freedom is an excuse to try to oppress others. Fighting for coexistence is noble.

The Chantry was trying to help the two sides coexist as best as they would let it. Anders took that away knowing full well that the two wouldn't coexist. He wanted one side to die, and he didn't seem to really care which side that was. The time that could have been used to find a solution without so much death (getting rid of the sword and, if still necessary, Meredith) was taken away.

Was that really a good thing he did?

Consider this, these are things the Templars do to the mages:
1) Lock them in  cells, so there is no freedom of movement or association
2) Tranquil a mage at little to no provocation, therefore no freedom of will or self-determination
3) Kill a mage with little to no provocation, therefore no freedom to live without fear
4) Rape mages at will, therefore no freedom of self (body) and no freedom to live without fear

How is that at all compromise? Seems like the mages are the only ones compromising. The templars get cowed victims that have no rights that they can beat, kill, or rape on a whim. Orsinio has it right, if they are going to be treated like they are, why aren't they drowned at birth?

The mages have to fight for freedom first before they can fight for the rights of eqal coexsitance. Because before the endgame move, the mages had coexistance with no freedom.

[Pileyourbodies]

1. considering you see grace in the court yard along with many other mages they're not that locked up and can have chats with anyone.
2. only Arlik did that, EVERYONE ELSE WAS AGAINST IT! you people keep claiming we condemn mages for what 1 did but that was only one templar that did that!
3. Mages that use blood magic are executed. Mages that are apostates are brought to the circle. Mages that escape are captured. Anders for example escaped 7 times. Had the rules been to kill any mage that escaped this whole fiasco wouldn't have happened.
4. Again that was Arlik and it is hinted that Karas does the same thing. The bad apples should be removed from the order

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[Jaulen]

And I have to say, for people that can't see what Anders did from his POV, and sympathize or at least have some understanding, I'd hate to live in a world where you thought treating fellow human beings like the mages are treated in Kirwall, is A Ok.

The world of DA2 is not black or white. It's many shades of grey. And it's scary to me that there are so many 'pro-Templar, Anders is so evil, there is NO excuse for what he did' people on here. 'Cause the Templars aren't all that innocent either.

[Sabariel]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Words of the day: Innocent and Terrorist/ism

Thrown around way too much.

A case can be made that not all of the people we templar supporters are calling innocent are not innocent. 
However anders as no defense he was a terrorist.

It's not a matter of questionable innocence to me. However I don't feel like explaining it all right now. I'm terribly lazy. My apologies

I also wouldn't call Anders a terrorist. Him, I'd call an idiot or a fool or a dingus. Anders has always been a little on the dumb side, even in Awakening. Now Justice/Vengeance... that's another story.

[Pileyourbodies]

Sigh i'm invoking godwins law here...on the side of the ****s too i feel terrible...If a jewish man had blown up the Reichstag it wouldn't have been right and it still would be terrorism. I'd brand that man a terrorist even tho i feel sympathy for him. I feel sympathy for the mages too but doesn't mean they're not terrorist...Anders i have no sympathy for abominations must be killed.

[TJPags]

I've enjoyed this thread, and the dicussion.  For a while.

Like others, I think Lobsel has a rigid and incorrect view of what slavery is, of what the lore of the game is, and of what the situation is.

You can't simply keep calling something slavery, when numerous people have pointed out you incorrect use of the term, and expect us to change our minds.

You can't keep claiming that some character in the game called it slavery, and expect us to change our minds.  After all, if we are going to take everything that any character says in the game and accept it as true, then there was no Blight in DAO (Loghain), the Warden kidnappd Anora (Anora to Cauthrien), Hawke was trying to kill the mage-Templar collaberators (pretty much all of them said it), and the mages all deserved to die (Meredith).  Are all these things true?  Didn't think so.

You're defending a man who knowingly and intentionally killed hundreds of innocent people, based on a mistaken definition a word and the belief that if a character says it, then it must be true.

There's no arguing with you.

[AlexXIV]

There have been more than 100 innocent mages been killed by templars. We talk about a period of 1000 years. Why are normal people innocent and mages never? It's not like it is a choice to be mage, as little as you can choose your eye color or skin color or hair color, or if you are talented in one thing or another.

If templar kill innocents it is ok, but if a mage does it is proof that mages are evil.

[jweath]

"Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. "

Now I know why people use the word militant atheist this rant about it is right to kill them is as bad as Pope Pious calling the crusade. Obviously you are an impressionable zealot you just chose atheism over Al Queida or people who blow up abortion clinics. More proof it is not religion that causes blood lust zealotry. Those who do not believe in anything and want to make a psuedo-religion based on scant science they do not understand are just as susceptible. It is ignorance that breeds this mess.

"Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker""

The disease is blind faith and willful ignorance and is just as infectious to those who are anti-religion and ignorant of even what they purport to believe as those who claim to be religious and are ignorant of what they claim to believe. Really just put Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, Mormons, or Cathars in your statement in replace of religion and it is a perfect match to many of the worst killers the world has known. Despite, what your Gene Rodenberry inspired mind believes lack of religion does not stop persecution or blood lust nor is religion the root cause. It is willful ignorance and a want to destroy those who believe or act differently than you. Atheists are just as guilty of crusading as any religion.

[MorningBird]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

1. considering you see grace in the court yard along with many other mages they're not that locked up and can have chats with anyone.
2. only Arlik did that, EVERYONE ELSE WAS AGAINST IT! you people keep claiming we condemn mages for what 1 did but that was only one templar that did that!
3. Mages that use blood magic are executed. Mages that are apostates are brought to the circle. Mages that escape are captured. Anders for example escaped 7 times. Had the rules been to kill any mage that escaped this whole fiasco wouldn't have happened.
4. Again that was Arlik and it is hinted that Karas does the same thing. The bad apples should be removed from the order

1. Mages don't have as much freedom as you're alluding to.  From what I understand, it takes YEARS (or a world crisis) for circle mages to be granted the rights to venture out into their city (or other parts of Thedas) and when they leave, it's always with the expectation that they will return post-haste.  Even Greagoir (who is, by far, my favorite templar) hesitated and vehemently protested the allowance of SENIOR mages to fight in the king's army at Ostagar.  A mage Warden (in their Origin story) is denied the right to simply go outside the tower despite passing his/her Harrowing.

Anders was torn from his family, and the templars threatened that his parents would be made criminals if they tried to pursue him.  The only personal belonging they allowed him to keep was a pillow.

The only reason Hawke's family is not criminalized for harboring an apostate (if Bethany lives) is because of the Viscount's intervention, a luxury not every family in Thedas is going to have.

Not just anyone can waltz in and out of the Gallows.  Hawke (and by extension, his family) is a bit of an exception due to their past respectability and nobility.

There is an active apostate underground (that the Templar Order cracks down on between Acts 2 and 3) that smuggles willing, frightened, and desperate mages out of the Gallows all the time.

2. 'Everyone else' was not against it.  The people who could have passed it were against it, but if you talk to Cullen, you'll discover that he doesn't actually oppose the tranquil solution.

That being said, even though the Divine and Meredith rejected the proposal, Alrik (and possibly others) still continued to force the 'tranquil solution' upon mages in secret (as you discover during one of Anders' personal quests.)  They got away with it, and mages, who had passed their Harrowings, suffered as a direct result.

The templars didn't clean up their own mess.  Hawke cleaned up their mess.  If he hadn't been around, who knows how many more mages would have been abused?  The templars SHOULD be able to deal with insubordination within their ranks.  The fact that they don't/can't is a good indication that the system is corrupt/flawed.

3.  Depends entirely on the templar in question.  Yes, there is no mercy for blood mages, but mages who escape are not always shown leniency.  Aneirin, Wynne's apprentice in DA:O, was cut down for running away and presumed dead.

Apostates are not always brought to the circle.  If the templars believe that the apostate can't 'be re-trained' they're killed so they don't corrupt the rest of the circle with their 'ideals' of freedom.  If the apostate resists capture, they're killed.

4. The problem is that Alrik and Karas frequently (and without notice of the Knight-Commander or Captain) were allowed to get away with their insubordination without consequence.  Hawke dealt with them, not the Templar Order.  This is the problem.  Templars receive little to no repercussions for acting out of order unless it comes from an outside party (like Hawke.)

Modifié par MorningBird, 17 mars 2011 - 11:48 .

[Mikozilla]

AlexXIV wrote...

rma2110 wrote...

So basically Justice would see a mage like Bethany killed just because she's happy in the circle? Justice really is vengeance.

You get that in this one quest. Clearly justice wants to kill the mage girl while anders when he is himself again is thankful that he didn't. I think in act 3 justice has influenced Anders so much that he bascially picked up his idea of 'justice'.

That's exactly my opinion as well. Someone linked a video somewhere around the forums that had a scene I never personally got to see, which helps cement this idea:

[Numara]

I couldn't kill him, im sure its was Justice, come on The Anders we all know from Awakening would never do such a thing, and i hope theres a DCL when u can help Anders to kicks Justice ass and make him leaves Anders mind

[Kr0gan]

He made a terrorist act, he started a war... yeah, he's a saint.

[LobselVith8]

kylecouch wrote...

Dude...just because characters in the game say it is somthing...does not automaticly mean thats what it is...everything out characters mouths does not = iron clad fact.

Of course, but since people clearly view the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery in the world of Thedas, why should this be outright dismissed?

kylecouch wrote...

Characters can be wrong just like people in real life can be wrong, just because the word is used in the game does not mean the word is being used correctly...

In other words, you personally disagree with it, should the fact that characters -including Hawke - can refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery should be completely ignored? I suppose the tranquil, who have no agency of their own - which we know from Ander's friend saying he no longer wanted to be a "templar puppet" and another tranquil at the Gallows addressing that Knight-Captain Cullen "controls her" - should illustrate why I hold the view that it's slavery. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

kylecouch wrote...

The situation with Mages is not slavery...pure and simple...

Your opinion isn't indisputed fact. If mages have no basic rights and are under the control of the templars, and specifically the tranquil have no agency over their lives and are ordered as though they were robots, it's slavery.

kylecouch wrote...

you can disagree all you want but that is fact...not an opinion.

Actually, your opinion on the issue isn't fact.

kylecouch wrote...

Mages are not cattle that can be bought, sold and traded to the highest bidder, they are not whiped for their imputence, they are not branded with red hot irons to distinguish who owns them, they are not slautered for something as meaningless as impressing neighbors, they are not sent to work camps to work 24 hour shifts until they collapse dead from over-exercstion, they are not pushed off of cliffs to be fed to their masters pet dragons, they do not have raw Lyrium burned into their flesh just so their master can impress themselves, they are not forced to fight in gladatorial arenas until they die a painful death that appeases their masters. Really I can go on all day but it's pointless.

Let's see the definition of slavery:



1:[/b] drudgery, toil
2:[/b] submission to a dominating influence

3 a[/i] :[/b] the state of a person who is a chattel of another b : the practice of slaveholding

Since the mages are in submission to the dominating force of the Chantry and it's templars, then by the definition of the word, I can consider mages slaves. And I can see why multiple characters in DA2 refer to the Circle mages as slaves.

kylecouch wrote...

Mages are taken as children because it's dangerous to leave a mage unsupervised, let alone one who knows nothing of what they will face their entire life and endangers their entire family due to their lack of knowledge of the dangers they face.

You forgot to mention how they have no basic rights and can be ordered to be made tranquil based on evidence the First Enchanter doesn't have to say, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves against the charges against them. While Jowan was indeed a blood mage, there's no such evidence to indicate that Aneirin the Healer was one.

kylecouch wrote...

They are forced into Harrowings to prove they were paying attention in class and know just how dangerous demons can be.

I could argue it's setting up mages to fail when they're completely ignorant of the risks.

kylecouch wrote...

Mages who have succesfuly compleated their Harrowings are free the leave the Circle if they have business to do so, as long as evetuanlly they come back, they are not clamped in irons and continuesly spat on for simply living because if that was the case they would simply kill every mage child they found rather then waste their time letting them learn the dangers of the life they will live. As for taking the children of Mages away from them...thats the only thing I personally cannot understand but this post proves my point far beyond this one example.

Considering even Senior Enchanter Wynne needed permission to leave, let's not pretend mages can come and go at their leisure. If that was the case, Anders wouldn't have run away several times.

kylecouch wrote...

Mages are free to basicly do whatever their hearts desire within reason, even fool around with one another in a playful manner, as the Mage origins proves your even allowed to flirt with Templars if you wish with varying degress of sucsess.

Except for freedom, basic rights, a chance to raise their family, protection from the templars...

kylecouch wrote...

Case in point is that Mages are not the victoms you want them to be, they are treated far better then any slave could possibly imagine and most actual slaves would kill for the life they have.

Case in point, your argument doesn't really stand up to the actual lore of the Circles or the canon that we see in DA:O or DA2.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I've enjoyed this thread, and the dicussion.  For a while.

Like others, I think Lobsel has a rigid and incorrect view of what slavery is, of what the lore of the game is, and of what the situation is.

By rigid and incorrect, you mean I address what's actually said by characters who refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery? Or do you mean the actual definition of the word slave, which is:



1:[/b] a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

2:[/b] one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

3:[/b] a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
Well, the mages are completely subservient to the dominating influence of the Chantry, who control the Circles, and the templars, who are in command of the Circles. As for templars being in control of mages, let's read the codex:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. "

TJPags wrote...

You can't simply keep calling something slavery, when numerous people have pointed out you incorrect use of the term, and expect us to change our minds.

You mean I can't call it slavery because it directly addresses why Anders attacked the Chantry - the organization that's enslaved the mages for a thousand years? I shouldn't address that characters call it slavery in the game, and even Hawke can use the term slavery?

TJPags wrote...

After all, if we are going to take everything that any character says in the game and accept it as true, then there was no Blight in DAO (Loghain), the Warden kidnappd Anora (Anora to Cauthrien), Hawke was trying to kill the mage-Templar collaberators (pretty much all of them said it), and the mages all deserved to die (Meredith).  Are all these things true?  Didn't think so.

You're intentionally conflating the fact that characters recognize the Circle mages as slaves with Loghain refusing to believe it was a Blight because of Flemeth's prophecy, or how Arl Howe could intentionally slander the Warden and Arl Eamon by framing them for the death of Queen Anora, and this isn't a legitiment argument. Look at the tranquil and how they have no agency over themselves - I don't see how they can't be considered slaves when they can't remember who they once were and take orders from templars in command (as we learn from the discussion between a tranquil mage and someone the tranquil no longer recognized in the Gallows).

Furthermore, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. You're welcome to think whatever you like. I'm providing an alternative point of view on the issue.

TJPags wrote...

You're defending a man who knowingly and intentionally killed hundreds of innocent people, based on a mistaken definition a word and the belief that if a character says it, then it must be true.

There's no arguing with you.

And yet, that doesn't really stop people like you from arguing with me, does it? The way you make it sound, it's as if only people who share your point of view hold the truth, and everyone else should be dismissed. Let's forget that Anders wanting to emancipate his people from slavery because it's much easier to villify him than it is to see how dark the situation really was, when the Grand Cleric did nothing in the face of mage oppression and the Chantry had oppressed mages for almost a millennia.

[Shadow Wing]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I think many people are misunderstanding the point of what Anders was doing. I also think the OP completely missed the point as well. Anders didn't do it as some huge scheme to destroy religion and everyone who believes in the maker (The op seems to think that). He did it because Elthina was a constant neutral force between Orsino and Meridith. She was always keeping them from breaking out into war, which seems right but things were not able to continue the way they were. Meridith was mad, if you can't see that you are out of your mind, something NEEDED To change and Anders pushed the buttons to do it. Another attack on the Templar's would NOT have been enough. Think about it, the mages had been battling the Templars through Thrask's mini revolution long before that, and while it was causing Meridith to get edgy (when was she not), Elthina was still going to talk them down.

He also knew exactly what he was doing. Why do you think he spent time talking to you and Varric in a tone that implyed he was going to die soon? It's because he knew he would be killed for his actions. The point is that as wrong as his action was at the time, it will have an effect in the future for the better for mages. Looking past the point that it gets Meredith out of the picture but it's also a sign to mages around Thedas that they need not be pushed into slavery anymore. It's kind of a situation where unfortanately people die, but their deaths prove a point in the future to prevent history from repeating itself. As horrible as it may seem now, it was the right thing to do when thinking of the long term.

Also, I am not condoning acts of terrorism, this is a video game so don't start with that crap. And unfortunately sometimes things need to happen this way in order for change to occur, if you don't believe that just read some history books.

Yeah, unfortunately  sometimes these things do happen, but that still doesn't make it right......you may argue that sometimes these things are necessary to change things but that still doesn't really justify the countless death that could have been avoided, it would never really justify that especially to those who have lost love ones.

[Shadow Wing]

Lirea Dragonage wrote...

I don't think what Anders did was right but I couldn't argue with the result. Not that that negates his actions. Not sure I'll ever be able to execute him either when I side with the mages. I agree with his entire philosophy completely (I just don't agree with his methods) and I think killing him would be of no use. He's made this mess, he can damn well help clear it up.

Yeah, well he probably had no intention of cleaning it up, he was willing to die for it already, if given a chance to live, he will probably find a way to further escalate the violence so that it will endu quickly.

[Shadow Wing]

terdferguson123 wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

And of course she had to die for that terrible sin.

And please explain to me how that means EVERY or even MOST of the people that would have been in the Chantry had it coming as well?

Great change rarely ever occurs from doing things people agree on, if they agree on it why would they change it? It's unfortanate and certainly is disgusting that innocents died for his action, but it will have a positive effect on thousands of mages in the future. An event like this is something thats never easy to accept but as with any decision you need to look at more than just the downsides to it.

Its so funny that you say its "unfortunate" that people had to die, try telling that to the families who have lost love ones....."yeah, your husband died when he was passing outside the chantry church, an 'unfortunate' incident."
It will not have a positive effect to the thousand mages, it could POSSIBLY have a positive effect but thats uncertain and what about those non-mage who got killed in the crossfire, what positive effect could that have?

[Shadow Wing]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A thousand years of subjugation will push people to the edge to see their people freed. That's what happened to Anders: he wanted to free the mages. In the end, the Circles broke free from the Chantry, so Anders' gambit clearly paid off.

Doesn't make it right....its like saying a servant broke free  from his master by killing him and his family even though the other family members had done nothing to deserve death. Anders literally took the lives of others who had no say in the mattter anyway and just thought of them as colateral damage, something to use..he's actually no better than meredith.

[Shadow Wing]

Volourn wrote...

"Is conscription slavery? What about a prison work detail? "

Yes, to both.

ooohhh be careful how you say that, especially about the first one, there are a couple of countries who still use conscription and the citizens don't really see it as slavery but as service, just saying....whatever country you're from, the rest of the world may not necessariy have the same sentiment.

[Shadow Wing]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pile, you don't like the fact that characters call it and consider it slavery? Take it up with the writers of the game. Honestly, I have no interest in explaining why your opinion isn't fact when characters in the actual game, including the possibility of a pro-Mage Hawke, don't share it. This discussion isn't getting us anywhere. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to force your opinion as fact, especially when characters in canon don't share it.

what does the characters in canon think anyway, as far as i can tell tell canon hawk can have a couple of stance about it...so technically, both your and piles opinion can be canon....so you can actually say "characters in canon don't share it" since they can depending on how you choose the act as Hawk.