1411 réponses à ce sujet

[jweath]

I didn't dislike the story line but was it not a little too much modern commentary? Has no one noticed this? Mages are the terrorist who are different and the story line is really about do we condemn the whole group for the actions of a few radicals. Although, the story line takes the worst sides on both issues on the war on terror. Even the main stream mage turns radical unpredictably and the defender of the faith/nation is completely mad. It looks like that they made the worst left-wingnut and right-wingnut images of the war on terror a reality in DA2 with the magi taking the role of Muslims and the Templars being government trying to stop terrorism. They even added the worst left wingnut accusation of those promoting the war on terror as being ****s. Seriously, the "tranquil solution" was a very thinly veiled reference to those who want order and to stop terrorism being ****s. The storyline to me was the Coast to Coast version of the war on terror.

[Lux]

Blowing up a church and killing innocent people. What a *nice* vibe to pass on...

[jweath]

Honestly, the more I think about the more the story line was a in depth rehash of the circle tower and a parody of modern America. The Chantry taking over and invoking the right of the annulment is like a left wingnut conspiracy theory that the Religious right was behind 9/11 and making the war on terror a crusade. The Templars being portrayed at times as WWII German nationalists only reinforces it. One could go as far as Meredith becoming Viscount to say that was the exterme liberal view of the Bush administration and the whole change is coming thing Obama being elected (just his favorite campaign slogan).

The idea of all mages could be turn into blood mages at any second is the right wing-nut ideas that is Christainity versus Islam. The belief of need to curtail freedoms speaks to things that happened in the war on terror. The Templars seem to have a beyond Hannity/Limbaugh view with some national socialism final solution mixed in.

The crazy thing is the storyline is not bad. It is the worst and most extreme opinions of each side come to life. Which makes a good fantasy world where your character has to fight a war and makes the story dark where you might regret whatever choice you make.

Modifié par jweath, 19 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[LobselVith8]

I don't see modern commentary in a man wanting to put an end to slavery. Mages have been slaves for a thousand years, and Anders wanted to put an end to that. There's nothing inherently modern about this goal. The Chantry has controlled mages through its Circles and its Order of Templars for centuries, and I don't see this as a parallel for the real life scenario you've brought up, jweath.

[Iberius]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

Hmmm...... injustice does not excuse more injustice. The Grand Cleric certainly didn't deserve to be blown up. Meridith, definitely, but not everyone. Anders made a choice. He ultimately got vengeance.......not justice.

Secondly, there is more than just empirical science/evidence to go on in life. It would be quite foolish to try and prove/disapprove everything using empirical science. Hahahaha try and investigate a crime scene using only empirical science

[StingingVelvet]

If you view the chantry as militarily enforcing imprisonment of innocents, as my Hawke did, then Anders' actions are easy to understand. Violence is sometimes necessary to stop injustice, like slavery or the holocaust.

[Emzamination]

StingingVelvet wrote...

If you view the chantry as militarily enforcing imprisonment of innocents, as my Hawke did, then Anders' actions are easy to understand. Violence is sometimes necessary to stop injustice, like slavery or the holocaust.

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

[DrGulag]

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

So by that logic also the templars and chantry are justified in their actions since mages created the darkspawn and caused more suffering than their few numbers could ever receive.

[DrGulag]

*double post sorry*

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[Emzamination]

DrGulag wrote...

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

So by that logic also the templars and chantry are justified in their actions since mages created the darkspawn and caused more suffering than their few numbers could ever receive.

The tevinter magisters are the cause of the darkspawn so if anyone must be punished let it be the mages in tevinter.The mages in ferelden are not tevinter in race or origin.

[Zalitara]

What Anders did was way out of line. One thing is to be a revolutionary, most revolutions start in violence, but you usually aim the violence at the bad guys. I mean Knight-Commander Meridith was right there when he blew up the Chantry and if really wanted vengance or justice or whatever he should have had the balls to fight her. Killing innocents are never justefieble.

Also I think his ideaology is dead wrong. At the start of the game I really felt with the mages. I was thinking back at DA:O where most mages would never turn to blood magic. Sure some of the mages in the Circle of Ferelden did but most of them were okay with things as they were, but in Kirkwall every time I turned my back there were a blood mage trying to kill me, a blood mage wanted to put demons inside the templars, a blood mage killed my mother, and there were blood mages in the middle of the street during nighttimes. In the end I was pretty fed up with "they turn to blood magic as a last resort because they don't have a choice." If they had stayed at the circle they wouldn't have had any problems.

Also Anders had no right to speak for everyone. He says he wants the best for mages, but he doesn't ever ask what they actually want. He's an overgrown child throwing a temper tantrum, he didn't like the circle and therefor no one could possibly like it? Are you kidding me? I killed him for his act of terrorism and if I had the choice I would have waterboarded him first. He basicly killed The First Enchanter and -a lot- of mages and templars. Because of him there were hundreds of deaths and he caused the other circles to rise up against the templars, which just proves the chantry right. As Sebastian said, the last time the mages won we ended up with the tevinter emperium.

I am generally for everyone having freedom, but there is a reason we have prisons, people that are dangerous for others and themself needs to be watched and kept under control. It sucks and it's unfair but that's just life. I think the circle could have been much better than it is. But it still doesn't excuse what Anders did.

[sassperella]

DrGulag wrote...

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

So by that logic also the templars and chantry are justified in their actions since mages created the darkspawn and caused more suffering than their few numbers could ever receive.

that's the chantry story yes. but if you talk to wynne in dao about it she does say that it could be metaphorical rather than literal. Just because the Chantry says it doesn't make it true.

[Vandicus]

Emzamination wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

So by that logic also the templars and chantry are justified in their actions since mages created the darkspawn and caused more suffering than their few numbers could ever receive.

The tevinter magisters are the cause of the darkspawn so if anyone must be punished let it be the mages in tevinter.The mages in ferelden are not tevinter in race or origin.

Excellent response. As we all know, the modern Tevintir Imperium is completely unrelated to the ones that created the darkspawn. The old Tevintir Imperium included all of known Thedas, and would include all living mages. So all living mages should be punished. The fallacy here is that you're lumping people into groups arbitrarily. By this logic, the ****s who attempted to kill Hitler and end his madness are just as deserving of destruction as those who supported Hitler's final solution(sorry for irl reference mods).

[Bowie Hawkins]

Emzamination wrote...

When someone willingly violates your rights there can never be a peaceful resolution.Projecting on them an equal amount of the same violence they inflicted on you is the only way they can understand what they did was wrong.

I'm glad to see that you killed Anders for what he did.

[Per Bialaska]

I definitely didn't like what Anders did. In fact there was absolutely no hesitation in killing him as punishment, the only regret being that I was unable to do so before he did so.

If Anders had targetted the Gallows with the templars, it would perhaps have been justified. But instead he targets the one institution that has been fighting to establish peace again, with both the Templars and Mages becoming more and more agitated.

In the end we hear how this seems to have started a war between mages and templars. How many hundreds, how many thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands has died because of Anders' decision? No, the man deserved the death penalty for his actions.

I must admit that I was very torn about taking sides. Almost free mages appear to be blood mages in Kirkwall, so of course the Templars will have to hit harder. There's demon and undead summoning apostates everywhere, I think you kill more shades, ragedemons and undeads than you kill of all other creatures added together.

While the templars might strike too hard down on innocent mages, I still believe that they are justified in needing some sort of control. A single apostate using blood magic is in many ways like a nuclear weapon ready to be blown up.

In the real world I am happy that the nuclear weapons are kept safely tucked away by the world powers. I would really be scared if a bunch of lunatics were running around wildly blowing up nukes for whatever reason, whether it was because they had lost the girl that they loved and therefore went all Frankenstein and reanimated a corpse stiched together or got angry and therefore killed the woman that they loved.

In honesty the number of mages that seems uncorrupted are about counted on one hand in Dragon Age 2. Bethany (the Amell family are especially resistant I think) and possibly the Mage HawkeEven the First Enchanter has studied Blood Magic, because you just can't pull off a Harvester transformation if you've never done blood magic before!

So I think the Templars are justified in keeping the Mages under control, although they are perhaps too heavy handed. But there definitely need to be some sort of authority to ensure the safety of the common people against the Mages, because unsupervised mages will just lead to another Tevinter Imperium.

[DKJaigen]

PurebredCorn wrote...

People have good reason to be afraid of mages and what they can do or become. I hate...*HATE* what Anders did and believe he definitely needs to pay for it with his life. I don't think his actions will change *anything* certainly not for the better as far as mages are concerned. All it did was start a bloody war and the mages will lose and things will be twice as bad for them as they were before.

And I also want to say it was one of the best story developments ever... damn.

Their is a high chance that the chantry will lose regardless if the mages loses. without mages you will see the tevinter imperium or qunari facerolling every other nation in thedas. Why do you think the chantry allows mages to exist to begin with ? Very simply put the chantry needs mages more then the mages need the chantry.

Anders method was extreme but change in the medieval setting isnt likely resolved through words. War seems to be the only outcome in such situations. The grand clecrics death while unfortunate is acceptable. She chooses to maintain the status quo despite repeated appeals by hawke and anders to change the situation.

[Blacklash93]

PurebredCorn wrote...

People have good reason to be afraid of mages and what they can do or become. I hate...*HATE* what Anders did and believe he definitely needs to pay for it with his life. I don't think his actions will change *anything* certainly not for the better as far as mages are concerned. All it did was start a bloody war and the mages will lose and things will be twice as bad for them as they were before.

And I also want to say it was one of the best story developments ever... damn.

I'm pretty sure we'll be deciding who wins and who loses the war in future installments.

[Greta13]

 First of all, I'd just like to say this has been a very...interesting topic. But one thing that many people seem to think is that it was a templar vs. mage war, with the chantry being the in between people. But, personally, I don't believe this is true. In DA:O when talking to Alistair he says that the chantry rules the templars (I can't remember the exact quote) they control the lyrium trade and therefor the templars have to do what the chantry says. If the revered mother truly wanted to stop Meridith or the other radical templars, I think she could have easily. 

I'd also like to say that although I didn't agree with what Anders did, I didn't think it was a big deal, there are a couple reasons why. Firstly, whenever I recall going to the chantry, there wasn't many people there, so I think saying HUNDREDS of people died is a bit of a exaggraderation. Secondly, I don't believe that any people there are really innocent. I don't think they should have died, but they weren't free of fault. Actions speak louder than words, and in this case it seemed to me their lack of action spoke even louder. Thirdly, throughout the duration of the game Hawke has probably killed ten times the amount of people that died in that explosion, my warden doubly so. Many of these people could doubtlessly be considered 'innocent' too.  

So, while my Hawke wouldn't have done what Anders did (nor my Warden) I don't hate Anders for what he did, and I didn't kill him either. But this is just my opinion, just as almost everything else posted in this topic is just well written (or no so much) opinions. 

[Bowie Hawkins]

Greta13 wrote...

In DA:O when talking to Alistair he says that the chantry rules the templars (I can't remember the exact quote) they control the lyrium trade and therefor the templars have to do what the chantry says. If the revered mother truly wanted to stop Meridith or the other radical templars, I think she could have easily. 

It's more likely that she would have wound up as dead as the Viscount that tried to expel the Templars from Kirkwall.

[Greta13]

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

Greta13 wrote...

In DA:O when talking to Alistair he says that the chantry rules the templars (I can't remember the exact quote) they control the lyrium trade and therefor the templars have to do what the chantry says. If the revered mother truly wanted to stop Meridith or the other radical templars, I think she could have easily. 

It's more likely that she would have wound up as dead as the Viscount that tried to expel the Templars from Kirkwall.

But would the nobles continue to support her? By act 3 the nobles were already fed up with Meridith, and if Meridith did kill the revered mother I somehow doubt they would stand by and do nothing. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Greta13 wrote...

Bowie Hawkins wrote...

Greta13 wrote...

In DA:O when talking to Alistair he says that the chantry rules the templars (I can't remember the exact quote) they control the lyrium trade and therefor the templars have to do what the chantry says. If the revered mother truly wanted to stop Meridith or the other radical templars, I think she could have easily. 

It's more likely that she would have wound up as dead as the Viscount that tried to expel the Templars from Kirkwall.

But would the nobles continue to support her? By act 3 the nobles were already fed up with Meridith, and if Meridith did kill the revered mother I somehow doubt they would stand by and do nothing. 

I don't think she would kill the Grand Cleric. At least she didn't fall to madness that much. At the very end, she says she will avenage her "old friend" Erlina.

Plus she was losing control of her Templars by then. Killing the Grand Cleric, I think, would have probably caused a mass unrest from the Templars themselves. Though she can always resort to assassination. But I don't think she arrived at that point.   

[dragonageobsessed]

I agreed with what Anders did. Forcing mages to live in the Circles, which are prisons, is the same as putting them in a concentration camp. Who orchestrates this? The templars. Who are the templars run by? The Chantry. The Chantry perpetuates the bigotry and lies which causes much of the populace to view mages with disgust and hatred. Destroying the Chantry was a symbol that the oppression of the mages is coming to an end. Armchair critics who criticize and vilify Anders for his actions forget the countless mages who met similar fates at the hands of Chantry lackeys - either through rights of annullment, being made tranquil, or dying during the harrowing. These actions against mages were fuelled by hatred and bigotry. Anders and Justice obviously felt tremendous anger, but his action superceded that, and was not simply BECAUSE of anger - it was more. It was a statement that the oppression must end. I'll always support Anders

[DRTJR]

This will result in the mages losing allies they might have had, Anders should have gone for broke, and go for the Divine, not Elthina, who was sympathetic to the cause if staying,