1411 réponses à ce sujet

[graciegrace]

lolwut? No, Anders didn't do the right thing. He killed a bunch of somewhat innocent people because he presumed to have the authority to decide that every mage in Thedas wanted to be free of the Circle. Because of his own personal vendetta he forced a war that could have been resolved peacefully

[HarlequinKing]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

The problem with original post isnt that he or she is right or wrong; it is that he or she is applying real world values and analogues to the game and to the chantry.

He or she is equating the fairly benign Chantry with the Catholic Church as many are want to do.

This is not fair or correct. The Chantry bare's little resemblance to the Church in actuality; and while the Church has a long and proud history of slavery, abuse, mysognistic attitudes, racism, and homophobia the Chantry does not.
The Church is an organisation that is an actuality a Chaotic Evil organisation masquarading as a Lawful Good organisation (if we use Forgotten Realms terminology) whereas The White Chantry (as apposed to the Black Chantry) is Lawful Neutral and doesnt pretend to be otherwise.

They are not analagous.

I'm not gonna argue about particulars of this post with you since it would get way off-topic, devolve into ridiculousness on all sides and probably get some banhammers swung. I'll just say that as an active Catholic, I resent being called or associated with chaotic evil. Can we just not go there? Thanks.


As for the Chantry in the game, I think it strives to be lawful good. Since it's made up of a lot of people, there will inevitably be plenty of bad examples. But you also have characters like Wynne, Sebastian and Leliana, who are clearly in the good range.

[tom.bleaker]

Garath1988 wrote...
The chantry controls the templars, the chantry is allowing it. Anders is perfectly right, there is no compromise. Elthina could smoothen things out again i'm sure, but for how long? Her actions ultimately don't change the injustice that is the circle. As a previous poster said, oppresive ideologies don't usually surrender if you ask nicely, you accept their opression or you fight back.

I didn't say that he had only two options. He could have fought Meredith and her Templars face-to-face like a man. I would have supported that.  Instead he chooses to instigate civil war through the blood of a third party. Anders is a coward. He thinks himself brave because he is willing to die. But he is only willing to die because he cannot bear the burden of seeking compromise. Its easy to say "no compromise with evil" for no man thinks himself evil. Yet this certainty is the source of almost all evil deeds. 

[hismastersvoice]

AlexXIV wrote...

There are always shades of grey.

There are not shades of gray in relation to the distinction between a terrorist (a person killing civilians in an attempt to terrorize the public) and a freedom fighter (a person that actively or passively fights members of an oppressive faction). Anders is/was a terrorist, pure and simple. Had he fought Templars, he'd be a freedom fighter. Of course, blowing up a bunch on innocents is much easier that standing up to an army of Templars but hey...

[OriginalTibs]

hismastersvoice wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective

Grade A bull manure. Once you start killing innocent people, you're a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. No amount of perspective will change that.

Resistance against invading forces during WW2 - freedom fighting. Blowing up WTC - terrorism. There's no place here for shades of gray.

I do apologize: I keep reading your nick as 'hamstersvoice' and I fear it places a different nuance upon what you actually say.

There are always shades of gray when judging human actions. In fact, there are ever only shades of gray. No human action is so pure as to be black or white.

[SpeakingInSilence]

OriginalTibs wrote...

hismastersvoice wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...
Honestly the difference between terrorism and freedom fighting is perspective

Grade A bull manure. Once you start killing innocent people, you're a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. No amount of perspective will change that.

Resistance against invading forces during WW2 - freedom fighting. Blowing up WTC - terrorism. There's no place here for shades of gray.

I do apologize: I keep reading your nick as 'hamstersvoice' and I fear it places a different nuance upon what you actually say.

There are always shades of gray when judging human actions. In fact, there are ever only shades of gray. No human action is so pure as to be black or white.

Ander's did not even target the Templars when he destroyed the Chantry. The Chantry like a church is filled with civilians. People go there to worship and to find peace with their god. Terrorism is when an individual or a group specifically target civilians to cause fear.

Modifié par SpeakingInSilence, 15 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[Fair34]

Anders is a terrorist. Nothing he says can justify murdering innocents just to provoke/incite people to action for his cause.

I kill him every playthrough.

[HarlequinKing]

SpeakingInSilence wrote...

Ander's did not even target the Templars when he destroyed the Chantry. The Chantry like a church is filled with civilians. People go there to worship and to find peace with their god. Terrorism is when an individual or a group specifically target civilians to cause fear.

Indeed. Liar (wouldn't come clean about his plot), hypocrite (cites Chantry teaching only when it suits him), traitor to Hawke, deserter to the Warden, terrorist.... and coward. What a jerk.

[Gerrium]

I let him live, and we were not at eye to eye sometimes. People here are misunderstanding what he did. I disagree with the OP in the the motives of doing such action, because Anders believed in the Maker and the Chantry but he heavly disliked the treatment of the templars towards mages. In the game you saw it clearly when the Grand Cleric intervined in the dispute, she was not against the mages, she believed in mages and templars working together willingly. Anders just quicken the inevitable he said it himself and you all saw it. Sooner or later Orsino would have made his move out of desperation, Anders decided that sooner was better,way sooner...as in NOW. lol Anders actions if anything proved he foresaw the mages interest, thus doing this out of practicality, why blow up the chantry when he could have blown up the templar hall? because the chantry would have made the effect that you all see now in the end.

A war that will shape the views of magic and religion together...like the maker always wanted...

As he said "Magic was made to serve Man and not rule over him"

And yes I let him live... Death is not justice, then his death would not be so. Serving and helping
the people in these times of crisis would be repayment enough at least for the Maker.

[tom.bleaker]

Gerrium wrote...
And yes I let him live... Death is not justice, then his death would not be so. Serving and helping
the people in these times of crisis would be repayment enough at least for the Maker.

I would have let him live for just these reasons if it had not been for Sebastian's threat to march a Starkhaven army and slaughter all of Kirkwall for doing so.

[maxbarton]

I let him leave in my first playthrough and then took him back in the final fight. I very much wanted to kill him, but I felt I needed a healer since I was playing on hard. So he survived on due to 'metagaming.'


Now that I know better he's dead, now and forever. I'll only be upset if this doesn't carry over to DA3 and no matter what we do he shows up again. :/

[SpeakingInSilence]

tom.bleaker wrote...

Gerrium wrote...
And yes I let him live... Death is not justice, then his death would not be so. Serving and helping
the people in these times of crisis would be repayment enough at least for the Maker.

I would have let him live for just these reasons if it had not been for Sebastian's threat to march a Starkhaven army and slaughter all of Kirkwall for doing so.

I let him run away but he came back and attacked me. Had to put him down for that! Out of control!

[DJ DuBb D]

My first playtrough was bassiclly be nice, try to be neutral and solve conflicts with words rather then physical force.
Going trough the game I got attached to mages more and more, but I drawn a hard line. Is a mage using Blood Magic or is it an Abomination it's an easy kill.

Altho I believe every person has the right for freedom I must agree with the Chantry in a certain degree.

Yes mages are strong and they should be watched, but the way how Meredith handled it was just plain terrorising. Making a mage tranquil for just saying something wrong, is just wrong to me. Hence when the chantry got blown Ijust blindy went for the mage side and I thought by myself let Sebastiaan come with his wimpy army.

In the end tho in the tower I got a nasty suprise, but that's something you may figure out for yourself.

[LobselVith8]

Anders is Andrastian, which is clear when you speak to him, and listen to his conversations with Merrill. He has nothing against Andraste, but against the slave practices of the Chantry and its Order of Templars. Anders attacked an institution of slavery, killed members of a slave organization that oppressed his people for almost a millennia. Anders actions lead to the emancipation of his people in the Circle, who broke free from the Chantry as a direct result of his actions.

[Caladors]

 
Honestly yet another religion compared to real world religions.
Come now.
No religion I know of keeps a public sect of 'law enforcers' whom are the worst kept secret known to Theados addicted to lyrium or any other substance.
So please come on.

What Anders did was a duck move.
In all of the history of duck move it was perhaps the most phallic.
Erhm.
But was it stupid no way.
He wins.

Oh he pulled one of the greatest Xanatos Gambit ever.
It doesn't matter what anyone does he will always win.
All roads lead to victory for him.
He dies he dies a martyr and not just any martyr he is the mage Che Guevara, “I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man” supposed last words.
But it fits the bill for him, you kill him and you make him into a legend.
You let him live and he becomes the rallying point for all magi.
He was in a circle behaved and became a warden all that jazz how much effort do you think it would take for captain spin to get a hold of his story.
He heals the sick and keeps people forgetting the magi threat of blood magic.

I hate him.
All of his moaning.
His collective moaning rivaled that any knitting circle.
But you got to give him credit.
He knew what he was doing.
And you got pulled along for the ride.
Like a dog on a leash you were just happy to be out.
I really do hate the smarmy bastard.

[Tainan7509]

Here is the though by Albert Einstein: "Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding"

[JasmoVT]

I am about half way through the 3rd act and as so often in these things I want the unoffered option 3. I really want to joint the Divine in an Exalted March to eradicate both all mages and all templars. Not that I have any love for the Chantry but they are so much more reasonable than the mages or templars and they do provide extensive charity after all. I want a result where no cirlce mage or templar ever appears in another dragon age game.

[Teddie Sage]

Hating religions isn't showing some immaturity, it only shows you're taking a side.

[Alessar1288]

Tainan7509 wrote...

Here is the though by Albert Einstein: "Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding"

Great quote. What I also don't understand how is Anders being any different than the templars. The templars force Mages to live in the Circle and some mages don't appreciate that. On the other hand some mages tend to like the Circle such as Wynne, and his actions pretty much force that like the Circle to be ripped from it as well.

[LobselVith8]

How is enslaving mages reasonable, JasmoVT? As for their charitable acts, I'm sure we can ask the Dalish how charitable they were sending templars to force religious conversion on elves that, according to the Dalish, started the war between Orlais and the Dales. Considering how the end of the Exalted March lead to the elven religion being made illegal by the Chantry and they forced the city elves to convert to the Chantry...

SpeakingInSilence, you mean Sebastian came back to fight you after he initially left when you sided with Anders? That didn't happen for me. Did you have full rivalry with him?

[jklinders]

I don't really have anything to add here save that the OP has not seen fit to post in here to support his views since his first post. Successful troll is very very successful.

[heretica]

I hear you talking about killing civilians and terrorism... what do you call when someone locks a bunch of people up in a tower until the day they die? what about templars making a lot of mages tranquil just for the sake of it? isn't that worse than death? isn't that a crime against human rights?

I see you pointing fingers at Anders cause he blew up the chantry, but the templars aren't any better.

Perhaps you people forget how revolutionary processes work. Life is unfair and people die. Deal with it.

Now you may call me a monster.

[MoMan313]

ah man... T____T I was with him 100% UNTIL he blew up the efin chantry! >.< I only killed him the first time because seb was threatening war...
eh... ok, all together.. I'm with him 86% percent.. no TOTAL freedom for mages.. just free like ordinary citizens with the templars being a mage police and court.. (yes they kinda have that system in tevinter.. but I'm still convinced it would still work)

But nnoo.. I can't bear to kill him.. I'm just going to smack some sense into the twisted justice of his until the end of time.. there are worse fates then death.. like being nagged on the blowing up the chantry every 5 minutes

Anders: Hey can I-?
Me: No, you blew up the efin chantry.
Anders: But!
Me: CHANTRY!

This was going to happen anyhow... if the war was going to start, you might as well have your crazy friend right there by your side.. Because my first ending was sided with Seb and the mages.. >:| no satifaction there.. "they eventually all left the champion's side"
So I didn't kill anders and lost Seb... happy day! My ffriend! Brofist all the way dude!

[fallingseraph]

I think the head of the Chantry sat back and let the majority of the problems happen without stepping in and helping. So the blood is also on her hands with the Qun and with the insurrection of the mages.

However why couldn't all that power have been saved for the last battle when there are 10,000 statues to face...gawd that was stupid long.

[Gabey5]

HarlequinKing wrote...

SpeakingInSilence wrote...

Ander's did not even target the Templars when he destroyed the Chantry. The Chantry like a church is filled with civilians. People go there to worship and to find peace with their god. Terrorism is when an individual or a group specifically target civilians to cause fear.

Indeed. Liar (wouldn't come clean about his plot), hypocrite (cites Chantry teaching only when it suits him), traitor to Hawke, deserter to the Warden, terrorist.... and coward. What a jerk.

how is he a traitor to hawke? He didn;t desert the warden... the warden left his post as commander to pursue morrigan etc , the blight was over, a terroist? He did what he had to do to free his people