1411 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonageobsessed]

Elthina did nothing. And don't forget who the templars ultimately work for - the Chantry. Anders is a hero, not a hypocrite. He's misguided, but people make mistakes. And considering that he is able to set the bomb without being seen as long as you distract just ONE person (grand cleric elthina), I don't think the Chantry was "filled with people", otherwise he would surely be detected. And finally, considering people like Petrice are running around the Chantry, I think the bomb cleared up a few more of those rascist, fascist anti-Quinari, anti-mage, anti-elf people.

[CrimsonZephyr]

In all honesty, the conflict will spread past mages. Practicality would dictate that eventually mages and the governments of the individual nations will come to some sort of agreement, or else they will lose to Tevinter or the Qunari. Plus, many mages are capable of utterly wrecking Templars. It's not one-sided.

I would like to see Orlais get utterly ransacked, though. Imagine a Fereldan army marching triumphantly into Val Royeaux. Who's laughing now?

[Rifneno]

dragonageobsessed wrote...

I agreed with what Anders did. Forcing mages to live in the Circles, which are prisons, is the same as putting them in a concentration camp. Who orchestrates this? The templars. Who are the templars run by? The Chantry. The Chantry perpetuates the bigotry and lies which causes much of the populace to view mages with disgust and hatred. Destroying the Chantry was a symbol that the oppression of the mages is coming to an end. Armchair critics who criticize and vilify Anders for his actions forget the countless mages who met similar fates at the hands of Chantry lackeys - either through rights of annullment, being made tranquil, or dying during the harrowing. These actions against mages were fuelled by hatred and bigotry. Anders and Justice obviously felt tremendous anger, but his action superceded that, and was not simply BECAUSE of anger - it was more. It was a statement that the oppression must end. I'll always support Anders

QFT.

jollyorigins wrote...

Kill innocent civilians and religious leaders? sure that is completely right to do, next he'll be ordering Hawke to murder a Templar-Carver or you'll be "oppressing" mages or murdering puppies because they bother cats. The entire war thing could have been avoided if Anders actually pulled his head out his own a*se and try compromising, why couldn't he just help Hawke over throw Meredith and the templars loyal to her, or if he *had* to blow something up why not the templar dorms in the gallows? that would have made more sense than attacking the one person who could have ended the entire dispute and Meredith's tyranny. Seriously, Anders is a hypocrite, a coward, a fascist and an egotistical prig.

Oh goodie, more "innocent civilians" and "religious leaders." Hey, you know who else was a religious leader? Osama bin Laden. Best of all though was the "this war could've been avoided if they'd just submitted!" Priceless. Truly priceless. Good thing you weren't in charge of any military powers in the 40's, that's all I'm saying.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I would like to see Orlais get utterly ransacked, though. Imagine a Fereldan army marching triumphantly into Val Royeaux. Who's laughing now?

They better leave the grand chantry unspoiled though. That's a pro-mage Hawke's kill.

[PickledGear]

Oh goodie, more "innocent civilians" and "religious leaders." Hey, you know who else was a religious leader? Osama bin Laden. Best of all though was the "this war could've been avoided if they'd just submitted!" Priceless. Truly priceless. Good thing you weren't in charge of any military powers in the 40's, that's all I'm saying.

Wo wo wo now thats going over the line. Osama Bin Laden a "religious" leader? My as* if you asked all the muslims in the world if Osama was a martyr for all of Islam you'd get a resounding no! Islam is a peaceful religion but thanks to this insane man he convinced almost all of the Earth to fear it. That is just plain wrong to compare Elthina to Osama.

Osama was a leader of an islamic extremist group which has no ground or legitimacy to muslim people.That would be like saying the KKK is a prime example of all humanity or all caucasian people when they are little or even less then 1% of that entire consensus.

I still like the quote "god" from Futurama said "When you do things right, People won't be sure you've done anything at all." Case in point look at news media today, 90% of it all is always negative and how the world is going to end, or how crappy the environment is or how the economy is going in the toilet. You never see any good news. Thats because people always take notice of the negative more.

So lets use this small group that the majority "hates" and doesn't recognize as one of them and use them to over generalize the majority, yeah that makes perfect sense [/sarcasm]

Just like how most uninformed people think all muslims are terrorists and muslims hate them just because islamic terrorists did terrorist acts.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah but they dared to oppress mages!
So yes the smartest choice is to take the one that makes everyone hate you and wish to kill them all of course.

Because yes, Anders is clearly the most brilliant man on the planet who can clearly see what needs to be done.

aka Set of a chain of atrocities and counter-atrocities that will claim so many lives that victory will taste just as bitter as defeat.

Do you really think Anders, the mage rebels, and the Chantry will just let one atrocity happen?
No.

Bombs will explode, innocents will die in the cross fire.
All because one man and his demon decided they alone could decide for EVERY mage what is right.

Give me a break in a decade's time Anders will be committing acts that make the Chantry bombing look like nothing.
If he wont his members will.

GIVE US FREEDOM OR WE WILL KEEP BLOWING UP CHURCHES!
GIVE US FREEDOM OR WE WILL BLOW UP YOUR (insert public building here)

Anders and the mages will start this, the Chantry will fight back and Thedas is going to suffer for it.
Not just the mages, not just the Templars, but anyone who gets caught in the crossfire.

WAR does that.

[Rifneno]

Show me where I said he was a religious leader to ALL members of the religion. Because I didn't. Just like Elthina, and the "Divine" for that matter, are not religious leaders to ALL Andrastians. Many Andrastians spit on the Chantry. Hell, Anders is an Andrastian.

More to the point, I used that reference simply because it's the only one everyone knows. Unlike the winner of last year's American Idol, the average Joe has no concept of history. Or what's going on in other continents for that matter. Saying someone should be exempt from combat shows a monumental ignorance to human history. So yes, I'll go for the low-hanging fruit and make the cheap comparison. Because it's the only one people who think religious leaders are automatically innocent are going to get.

[Rifneno]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ah but they dared to oppress mages!
So yes the smartest choice is to take the one that makes everyone hate you and wish to kill them all of course.

Because yes, Anders is clearly the most brilliant man on the planet who can clearly see what needs to be done.

aka Set of a chain of atrocities and counter-atrocities that will claim so many lives that victory will taste just as bitter as defeat.

Do you really think Anders, the mage rebels, and the Chantry will just let one atrocity happen?
No.

Bombs will explode, innocents will die in the cross fire.
All because one man and his demon decided they alone could decide for EVERY mage what is right.

Give me a break in a decade's time Anders will be committing acts that make the Chantry bombing look like nothing.
If he wont his members will.

GIVE US FREEDOM OR WE WILL KEEP BLOWING UP CHURCHES!
GIVE US FREEDOM OR WE WILL BLOW UP YOUR (insert public building here)

Anders and the mages will start this, the Chantry will fight back and Thedas is going to suffer for it.
Not just the mages, not just the Templars, but anyone who gets caught in the crossfire.

WAR does that.

1.  The Chantry started this, and they started it centuries before Anders existed.   You don't get to brutally oppress a minority for hundreds of years and then play the victim card when they start fighting back.
2.  Welcome to war.  Innocents die.  Lots of them.  If you think plenty of innocents didn't die in the wars that secured the freedom you've got now, you're sadly mistaken.  Ditto for the whole "everyone decides" thing.  I guess you think the Union polled all the Confederate slaves to make sure they wanted freedom.
3.  Again, it's been going on for nearly a thousand years.  A thousand years, across multiple nations.  How much longer was it going to keep going?  It doesn't matter if victory tastes as bitter as defeat now, because it'll taste like honey to future generations who won't have to endure the Chantry's iron rapist fist.

[dragonageobsessed]

It's a simple question. Do you accept the status quo, in which the unjust system of oppression remains fundamentally unchanged? Or do you seek change when diplomacy fails, even going to great lengths to achieve this change? Easy question to answer if you're in the majority, or the oppressors. But if you're in the minority, the status quo means ongoing crimes against humanity committed against other members of your minority. Rite of annulment, rite of tranquility, the harrowing, templar witch hunts - they are all acts of murder or extreme punishment. Anders destroyed the Chantry, destroying the leadership of the organization (templars) which was enslaving the mages (remember - templars serve the chantry). HIS action had meaning. On the other hand, annulment, tranquility, harrowing, witch-hunts - these are simply murder of many innocent people (rite of tranquility is basically murder of the soul). These crimes are NOT normal, and are NOT acceptable. Anders had to act to bring to an end this horrendous treatment of mages, which was treated as the "status quo", or the "norm". No, the mages don't WANT to be in concentration camps/circles. They want to be free, but that won't happen if the Chantry and Templars are left unopposed. It's better to die free, than to live a slave. And Anders chose to break the status quo. If he hadn't broken it with such a drastic act, then the status quo would have remained, and nothing would change. Some might say: "But wasn't compromise possible to avoid the bloodshed?" There is no compromise in this case - either you lock mages up in concentration camps, or you don't. There is no "compromise" in this respect. And the status quo does NOT change without drastic action. What Anders did was necessary, and right. Anders has my total respect and love for his action.

Modifié par dragonageobsessed, 08 juillet 2011 - 12:43 .

[Marduksdragon]

Rifneno wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I would like to see Orlais get utterly ransacked, though. Imagine a Fereldan army marching triumphantly into Val Royeaux. Who's laughing now?

They better leave the grand chantry unspoiled though. That's a pro-mage Hawke's kill.

You can have the building. My Templar supporting Hawke wants to punt the White Divine out a high window and have the satisfaction of watching her splatter on the pavement. Even if you kill every rebel Templar that made it up there to do it, they'd die happy men. Then you pro-mages can melt the building into the dirt or whatever.

[ReallyRue]

I always wonder why Anders blew up the Chantry. Surely it would have saved him time to just explode the Gallows and have done with it. After luring Elthina there, presumably.

[Marduksdragon]

ReallyRue wrote...

I always wonder why Anders blew up the Chantry. Surely it would have saved him time to just explode the Gallows and have done with it. After luring Elthina there, presumably.

I think more and more it also has something to do with Kirkwall's glyphs.

[Areksu]

Actually, if you look at the available lore on the Chantry, there is nothing in their teachings that specifically tells them to do what they are doing to the mages. It really does boil down to the Chantry choosing to take advantage of more vague passages to support their fears and superstition. Unlike some real world religions, this means that there is room for peaceful resolution to the conflict by engaging in dialogue and common sense reasoning. Anders, along with Fenris, are two people with extremist views caused by abuses heaped upon them. How does blowing up the chantry help when it was fear and ignorance that caused the Templars to rise to power in the first place? Anders actually made things far worse by fully polarizing the conflict. The only people who benefit from this conflict are Orlais and Tevinter, not the Free Marches.

But lets take a look at the conflict, shall we? We have Orsino who secretly hides every villainous piece of mage trash in the city just to make mages look better, and we have Meredith the rising Despot who wants to put the entire city under Templar rule. Then we have Elthina who is negligent, but also the only voice of reason in the entire city. Elthina is hardly a threat.

Modifié par Areksu, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:58 .

[Tails_Night]

whe way i see it is it was probably the most screwed up thing anders could've done next to making it so every body caught in the blastb became a giant blood magic ritual in which a rift was opened or something. Destroying something just because you don't feel its right makes you just as pathetic and evil as the thing you hated, if not more. There's always a better way to deal with things, killing a few dozen to a few hundred just because you want revenge doesn't make your actuions right. Religion may lie but it's not the religion thats lying to control people, it's generally the person preaching it. For instance look at back when they said if you paid the church money you'd make it into heaven. The money didn't really go to the church it lined the preachers wallet. Do you think a group of dogma, an outlined idea of how your supposed to believe, and some books with words written in them are going to lie to the populace to line their wallets?

[Rifneno]

Marduksdragon wrote...

You can have the building. My Templar supporting Hawke wants to punt the White Divine out a high window and have the satisfaction of watching her splatter on the pavement. Even if you kill every rebel Templar that made it up there to do it, they'd die happy men. Then you pro-mages can melt the building into the dirt or whatever.

... Hmm. What about Leliana?

Tails_Night wrote...

Destroying something just because you don't feel its right makes you just as pathetic and evil as the thing you hated, if not more. There's always a better way to deal with things

Lulz.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...
2.  Welcome to war.  Innocents die.  Lots of them.  If you think plenty of innocents didn't die in the wars that secured the freedom you've got now, you're sadly mistaken.

I've heard this a lot and I don't get where people are coming from.  First off how can you say, "Well that's war." on the opening salvo?  Secondly there is a mountain of difference between the inevitable occurrance of civillian (i.e. innocent) casualties and the specific targetting of civillians.  Yes in war people who are not involved and have no desire to become involved will die.  However this fact does not make the targetting of said people an acceptable practice.

Example: Anders targets the Chantry at night (near 0 combatants) and kills innocent people in order to jump start the war.  This is unacceptable, while the Templars may be a branch of the Chantry they are also largely independent, so it'd be similar to targetting the post-office because the federal government controls both it and the military.  Now had Anders attacked a more combatant laden/centric target (Templar Barracks, Lyrium stores, Armory, the Blooming Rose, etc.) and innocent people died as a result that would be acceptable, because they were unintended casualties of an assault.

So in summary: Inevitable, unintentional death of civillians in war is acceptable.  Deliberate targetting of civillians to start a war is not.

Rifneno wrote...
3.  Again, it's been going on for nearly a thousand years.  A thousand years, across multiple nations.  How much longer was it going to keep going?  It doesn't matter if victory tastes as bitter as defeat now, because it'll taste like honey to future generations who won't have to endure the Chantry's iron rapist fist.

Cause things will be so much better under the Mages iron, sacrificial fist?  Let's run the numbers for a moment shall we?  How many mages do we encounter who resort to extreme and unethical practices to safeguard their freedom - 0.  How many mages do we encounter who resort to extereme and unethical practices to better inflict sufferring on those who oppressed them - 4 (off the top of my head).  Finally how many mages do we encounter who resort to extreme and unethical practices because they can - 4.  Oh and for fun how many mages do we encounter are playing with a full deck - 2 (maybe).  So exactly what is stopping these upstanding moral people from inflicting horrors upon the general populace after they win?

[ThatMan2112]

I didn't think he was right in blowing up the Chantry. I do think he was right when he said that there is no compromise. The Templars and Mages were going to keep arguing, all across Thedas. He should have targeted the Templars directly. There probably was some other way, but thinking from his point of view, and his goal, it probably had to be done.

[Rifneno]

Wow. It must've taken a lot of spamming the Esc key through dialogue to miss the fact that the Chantry is in charge of the templars.

[Vit246]

ThatMan2112 wrote...

I didn't think he was right in blowing up the Chantry. I do think he was right when he said that there is no compromise. The Templars and Mages were going to keep arguing, all across Thedas. He should have targeted the Templars directly. There probably was some other way, but thinking from his point of view, and his goal, it probably had to be done.

Here's a problem with everyone suggesting that Anders should've attacked the Templars instead.

The Templar headquarters is in the Gallows. Also where the mages are located. If Anders blew up the Templars, he would've killed many mages as well.

Also, attacking the Templars would ultimately be pointless. Templars are expected to die in their duties against mages. Dead Templars can be easily replaced with the never-ending supply of indoctrinated fanatics from Andrastian societies. An attack on the Templars would be swept under the carpet as merely another typical mage-templar conflict. A mere footnote in a list of footnotes. 

The Chantry is the true source of the entire spanning mage conflict. It preaches a divine religious doctrine of fear and hate towards all mages. That magic is a curse. It has supreme authority over the templars and circle mages. It makes the laws and policies on mages and their Templar military arm enforces them. The Right of Annulment was created by the Chantry in the first place.

Modifié par Vit246, 09 juillet 2011 - 02:27 .

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

Wow. It must've taken a lot of spamming the Esc key through dialogue to miss the fact that the Chantry is in charge of the templars.

Yes the Templars answer to the Chantry, much like a manager answers to their boss.  However like managers Knight Commanders have a great deal of autonomy.  It was Meredith, not Elthina, who decided to be heavy handed with mages.  It was Meredith, not Elthina, who promoted Templars like Karras and Alrik and nurtured the toxic environment of the Circle.  Elthina had power over Meredith she chose not to excercise, but your run of the mill priest can't go ordering Templars around.  Even Sister/Mother Petrice enlisted Varnell's help because he agreed with her views, not because she ordered him to assist her (impression I got).

Anders battle was with the Templars, the everyday priests of the Chantry (you know all but 1 of the people he killed with that bomb) have no power over the Templars, no authority to change how things are run, and have done nothing to harm mages (directly or otherwise).  This distinction is vital; the Templars may answer to the Chantry but they also have a separate hierarchy and command structure.  In any region there is one Priest of the Chantry who can compell the Templars, the Grand Cleric, and only two in all of Thedas (the Divine herself).

Again you are attacking the post office, for the actions of the military, because they both fall under the federal government.

[Plaintiff]

Yes, I think Anders was right. The Chantry is not innocent in the matter of mage oppression, it is the Chantry that controls the Templars, it is the Chantry that instills fear and hatred of mages in the general populace, and it is the Chantry that looks the other way when Templars openly flout its laws.

Templars like Meredith and Alrik are mere symptoms of the rot that spreads across Thedas. Nothing will change while the Chantry commands through superstition and fear. The only option is cleansing by fire.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 juillet 2011 - 04:29 .

[Ausstig]

Anders was right, now we have an reason to kill every last mage in Thades. Blowing up the Chantry is like blowing up a trade centre because you don't like capitalism and western ideals, perhaps a "World Trade Centre" if you would.

Yes Anders is right and so were the Black Hand who started WW1 to gain Serbs in Austria-Hungary 'Freedom', Osama was right to blow up the WTC to gain Muslims 'Freedom'.
People don't like the Chantry because they are mean to mages, but MAGES ARE DANGEROUS. They need to be controled, or they will kill anyone they want, Anders wants that.

[HTTP 404]

wow. Anders is right? I don't see how a wrong can make right? Unless you think murdering people is right.

[Plaintiff]

Ausstig wrote...

Anders was right, now we have an reason to kill every last mage in Thades.

Right, because the actions of an individual make it totally okay to execute all members of a minority.
 

Blowing up the Chantry is like blowing up a trade centre because you don't like capitalism and western ideals, perhaps a "World Trade Centre" if you would.
Yes Anders is right and so were the Black Hand who started WW1 to gain Serbs in Austria-Hungary 'Freedom', Osama was right to blow up the WTC to gain Muslims 'Freedom'.

Bull****. Complete and utter bull****. The World Trade Centre has nothing to do with "muslim freedom" it was not imprisoning and oppressing muslims, nor was it preaching bigotry against muslims. Your comparison is so inadequate that I think it literally made me dumber.

People don't like the Chantry because they are mean to mages, but MAGES ARE DANGEROUS. They need to be controled, or they will kill anyone they want, Anders wants that.

Control does not mean "execution for failing a test". It does not mean "lifelong imprisonment for no reason". It does not mean "spread hateful lies about mages to the general populace". The Chantry cannot be trusted to monitor and regulate mages anymore than you would entrust the welfare of a black family to members of the KKK.

Mages are ordinary human beings with extra talents. You're a human being, do you go around killing anyone you feel like? No, because there is sucha  thing as impulse control, and everyone has it. Mages are no exception.

Anders spent seven years of his life in the Kirkwall sewers, healing the sick and injured of Darktown. His destruction of the Chantry was not the result of random bloodlust, it was a rational, planned attack against an institution that is responsible not only for the systematic oppression of a minority he represents, but also for centuries worth of bloodshed and conquest under the guise of holy crusade.

[esper]

You never get me to admit that killing people is the right thing to do. However, I am sadly adware that with the situation the way it was the chantry exploding was necerssary. And I am sort of relieved that Anders did it, because I would never had had the courage to do it even if it was an option, but I do people that it was nercassary someone had to challangene the Chantry in a way the couldn't overlook.

[goofyomnivore]

I thought what he did was wrong and unforgiveable. He just added more bodies to the pile to an inevitable war. I didn't kill him however on my first playthrough. I sort of regretted it too, letting an abomination full of uncontrolled malice live after he did that. I guess I just didn't want to bring vengeance full circle. I've only completed three playthroughs, and haven't even begin to work on a "canon". I'm 60/40 on killing him for my canon right now. I haven't killed him yet though. Strange.

Modifié par strive, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:20 .