1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

DPSSOC wrote...

Again you are attacking the post office, for the actions of the military, because they both fall under the federal government.

Analogies that bad should be outlawed by the Geneva Conventions. Sweet Jesus. That was just brutal. Okay, the basis you're using for this post office analogy is that most of the people in the building were "innocent." How does that NOT apply for most government command centers? (Going to need to name a random dictator here, so peanut gallery, do be aware it's only a comparison on the operations of a bad government.) Do you think Saddam Hussein had a strict hiring policy wherein he made sure all his cleaning staff had killed a man just to watch him die? The head chef has to have raped at least 9 women? No. Any governing center has a lot of innocent people. Does that mean Hussein's palace wasn't a legitimate target? Hell no. It means, as I've been saying for months, BAD THINGS HAPPEN IN WAR.

Ausstig wrote...

Anders was right, now we have an reason to kill every last mage in Thades. Blowing up the Chantry is like blowing up a trade centre because you don't like capitalism and western ideals, perhaps a "World Trade Centre" if you would.

Yes Anders is right and so were the Black Hand who started WW1 to gain Serbs in Austria-Hungary 'Freedom', Osama was right to blow up the WTC to gain Muslims 'Freedom'.
People don't like the Chantry because they are mean to mages, but MAGES ARE DANGEROUS. They need to be controled, or they will kill anyone they want, Anders wants that.

"How charmingly fascist." - Commander Shepard

HTTP 404 wrote...

wow. Anders is right? I don't see how a wrong can make right? Unless you think murdering people is right.

War is a trial where you can separate the innocent and the guilty? When did this happen?!

[BlueMew]

Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry cannot be trusted to monitor and regulate mages anymore than you would entrust the welfare of a black family to members of the KKK.

I don't really contribute to these discussions anymore, as I'm tired of repeating myself - but this was a very apt comparison. Well said.

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Again you are attacking the post office, for the actions of the military, because they both fall under the federal government.

Analogies that bad should be outlawed by the Geneva Conventions. Sweet Jesus. That was just brutal. Okay, the basis you're using for this post office analogy is that most of the people in the building were "innocent." How does that NOT apply for most government command centers?

You raise a fair point however the Chantry (the specific building) was not a Templar command centre, that was the function of the Gallows (Templar HQ and Mage prison).  It's where they ate, where they slept, where they trained, and where the bulk of  their command structure was found.  The only member of said command structure who did not live in the Gallows was Elthina, and there was no reason to blow up the entire building to cut her off and set Meredith on a rampage.

Anders could have bound Elthina, marched her out in front of Meredith and Orsino and killed her and it would have had the same effect; Meredith's immediate superior is dead and if you think she'd wait for a new Grand Cleric to arrive/be appointed before jumping down the mages' throats you're crazier than she is.

Rifneno wrote...
(Going to need to name a random dictator here, so peanut gallery, do be aware it's only a comparison on the operations of a bad government.) Do you think Saddam Hussein had a strict hiring policy wherein he made sure all his cleaning staff had killed a man just to watch him die? The head chef has to have raped at least 9 women? No. Any governing center has a lot of innocent people.

Yes and any governing center also has a connection to the people you're actually fighting.  I used the post office in my example because there is absolutely no connection between the two beyond who they answer to.  The post office, even in a time of war, is not a military target, there's no logic to it being a military target (military communiques are not being sent through the post office, leaders don't gather there, disruption of the enemies war machine will be non-existant, etc.).  The only reason to target such a structure is the intentional slaughter of non-combatants.

Does the Chantry house Templars - no.  Do Templars gather there - sometimes.  Is the Chantry crucial to the day to day, week to week operations of the Templars - no.  Other than damaging morale will destroying the Chantry have any more effect than simply publicly killing the Grand Cleric - no.

Rifneno wrote...
Does that mean Hussein's palace wasn't a legitimate target? Hell no. It means, as I've been saying for months, BAD THINGS HAPPEN IN WAR.

THE WAR HADN'T STARTED YET.  You can't use the excuse, "War is Hell" on the opening shots.  We don't handwave away the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, the invasion of Poland, 9/11, etc. under the "War is Hell" banner because there was no war when those actions were planned and executed.  Had these events happened durring the wars they helped start it would have been different but you can't excuse the instigator in a war because there's a war, it doesn't work like that.  When Anders was planning and preparing his action there was no war, when Anders carried out his action there was no war, until Meredith declared the Right of Annulment there was no war.  Anders doesn't get to hide behind "War is Hell" because there WAS NO WAR.

[Rifneno]

DPSSOC wrote...

You raise a fair point however the Chantry (the specific building) was not a Templar command centre, that was the function of the Gallows (Templar HQ and Mage prison).  It's where they ate, where they slept, where they trained, and where the bulk of  their command structure was found.  The only member of said command structure who did not live in the Gallows was Elthina, and there was no reason to blow up the entire building to cut her off and set Meredith on a rampage.

See Vit246's post. He said it relatively well, and I'm pretty tired of explaining how the Chantry was not innocent or neutral.

THE WAR HADN'T STARTED YET.  You can't use the excuse, "War is Hell" on the opening shots.  We don't handwave away the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, the invasion of Poland, 9/11, etc. under the "War is Hell" banner because there was no war when those actions were planned and executed.  Had these events happened durring the wars they helped start it would have been different but you can't excuse the instigator in a war because there's a war, it doesn't work like that.  When Anders was planning and preparing his action there was no war, when Anders carried out his action there was no war, until Meredith declared the Right of Annulment there was no war.  Anders doesn't get to hide behind "War is Hell" because there WAS NO WAR.

And here I thought a millennium of brutal oppression and tyranny qualifies as starting something. My bad.

[Ryzaki]

Anders is about as right as Bin Laden was during 9/11.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DPSSOC wrote...
Anders could have bound Elthina, marched her out in front of Meredith and Orsino and killed her and it would have had the same effect; Meredith's immediate superior is dead and if you think she'd wait for a new Grand Cleric to arrive/be appointed before jumping down the mages' throats you're crazier than she is.

I don't think that would have had the same "umph". Anders was correct in that he needed to do something dramatic. A Grand gesture, to make it a catalyst to something big. Meredith may have wanted to annull anyways, but she would have had a harder time legitimizing it imo. 

Now whether his long term view is correct or not is a different matter (I think he is a fool in that regard). But his short term view was not wrong, and was succesful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The war isn't going to do much to help unless they win it. I really hope there is some plan in mind and that we just haven't heard much of it yet - the next novel Gaider writes might shed some light on the issue.

If there is a plan in the mind of mages, they get the credit for it. Not Anders. He had none. 

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The war isn't going to do much to help unless they win it. I really hope there is some plan in mind and that we just haven't heard much of it yet - the next novel Gaider writes might shed some light on the issue.

 

And really mages winning the war will be...well I'll take that word out but it wouldn't make much sense with the current information .

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
"And then the Maker Himself descended from the Heavens, removed a glove from His hand, slapped it across the Divine's face as He said; "You knave! Be nice!" and disappeared for a thousand years more. Then everyone lived in peace and all was beautiful. The End."

 

That actually doesn't sound so bad. The Maker just needs to be wearing a pimp outfit. And the End needs to have a rainbow. 

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...
See Vit246's post. He said it relatively well, and I'm pretty tired of explaining how the Chantry was not innocent or neutral.

This one?

Vit246 wrote...
Here's a problem with everyone suggesting that Anders should've attacked the Templars instead.

The Templar headquarters is in the Gallows. Also where the mages are located. If Anders blew up the Templars, he would've killed many mages as well.

Also, attacking the Templars would ultimately be pointless. Templars are expected to die in their duties against mages. Dead Templars can be easily replaced with the never-ending supply of indoctrinated fanatics from Andrastian societies. An attack on the Templars would be swept under the carpet as merely another typical mage-templar conflict. A mere footnote in a list of footnotes. 

The Chantry is the true source of the entire spanning mage conflict. It preaches a divine religious doctrine of fear and hate towards all mages. That magic is a curse. It has supreme authority over the templars and circle mages. It makes the laws and policies on mages and their Templar military arm enforces them. The Right of Annulment was created by the Chantry in the first place.

Ok. 

1) Mages in the Gallows; yes heaven forbid people who actually have a stake in the conflict suffer for it.  I mean what kind of person would expect an uprising minority to accept a few casualties in the name of freedom.

2) Attacking the Templars Pointless: I can see where you're coming from but keep in mind we don't have to shake all of civilization, or even all of Kirkwall.  All Anders needed to do was push Meredith and the Templars hard enough that they say, "To hell with Elthina we're killin' mages," and with mages killing Templars unprovoked (as they see it) and in large numbers that moment's going to come pretty quick.

3) Chantry is the problem; I agree the Chantry is the problem but not the same way you're thinking.  Let's look at the Spanish Inquisition, because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, the root of the problem was the Catholic Church, but it wasn't the individual churches or priests, it wasn't the Bishops, it was Rome, specifically the Pope.  The problem with the Chantry isn't Elthina or the individual Chantry's and clerics; they're just people raised to believe a certain way with no ability or need to seek a different one.  The problem is the Divine in Orlais who makes decisions and decrees for the entire system.  If Anders really wanted to target the Chantry (as an institution not a building) he should have quick-timed to Orlais and set about blowing up the Grand Cathedral.

Rifneno wrote...
And here I thought a millennium of brutal oppression and tyranny qualifies as starting something. My bad.

Lots of people have done lots of terrible things to others for a very long time, doesn't make it war nor does it allow for the justification of actions under considerations and allowances given to times of war.  Anders chose to start a war to end the oppression of mages, this I'm ok with.  He decided the only way to do so was with a dramatic attack against a symbol of that tyranny, this I'm ok with.  He chose to target a building with a total combatant population of 0, this I'm not ok with.

I'm not saying I agree with or support the status-quo (reform is needed), but that doesn't make what Anders did any less wrong (IMO).

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
It wasn't? Sh*t, I could be a writer. And of course He has a pimp outfit - what else could you expect from someone who has an adulterous affair with one of his own children? If that doesn't say pimp, then... it certainly says sick bastard. But sick bastards don't usually have a fly dressing style. And the Maker settles for nothing but the best.

You could. XD 

...It says sick bastard more than pimp.  So...a I guess he's a mix? Needs to keep that pimp hand strong. Then he flys off in a white limo with MAKER as the plates. 

[devilsgrin]

DPSSOC wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
See Vit246's post. He said it relatively well, and I'm pretty tired of explaining how the Chantry was not innocent or neutral.

This one?

Vit246 wrote...
Here's a problem with everyone suggesting that Anders should've attacked the Templars instead.

The Templar headquarters is in the Gallows. Also where the mages are located. If Anders blew up the Templars, he would've killed many mages as well.

Also, attacking the Templars would ultimately be pointless. Templars are expected to die in their duties against mages. Dead Templars can be easily replaced with the never-ending supply of indoctrinated fanatics from Andrastian societies. An attack on the Templars would be swept under the carpet as merely another typical mage-templar conflict. A mere footnote in a list of footnotes. 

The Chantry is the true source of the entire spanning mage conflict. It preaches a divine religious doctrine of fear and hate towards all mages. That magic is a curse. It has supreme authority over the templars and circle mages. It makes the laws and policies on mages and their Templar military arm enforces them. The Right of Annulment was created by the Chantry in the first place.

Ok. 

1) Mages in the Gallows; yes heaven forbid people who actually have a stake in the conflict suffer for it.  I mean what kind of person would expect an uprising minority to accept a few casualties in the name of freedom.

2) Attacking the Templars Pointless: I can see where you're coming from but keep in mind we don't have to shake all of civilization, or even all of Kirkwall.  All Anders needed to do was push Meredith and the Templars hard enough that they say, "To hell with Elthina we're killin' mages," and with mages killing Templars unprovoked (as they see it) and in large numbers that moment's going to come pretty quick.

3) Chantry is the problem; I agree the Chantry is the problem but not the same way you're thinking.  Let's look at the Spanish Inquisition, because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, the root of the problem was the Catholic Church, but it wasn't the individual churches or priests, it wasn't the Bishops, it was Rome, specifically the Pope.  The problem with the Chantry isn't Elthina or the individual Chantry's and clerics; they're just people raised to believe a certain way with no ability or need to seek a different one.  The problem is the Divine in Orlais who makes decisions and decrees for the entire system.  If Anders really wanted to target the Chantry (as an institution not a building) he should have quick-timed to Orlais and set about blowing up the Grand Cathedral.

Rifneno wrote...
And here I thought a millennium of brutal oppression and tyranny qualifies as starting something. My bad.

Lots of people have done lots of terrible things to others for a very long time, doesn't make it war nor does it allow for the justification of actions under considerations and allowances given to times of war.  Anders chose to start a war to end the oppression of mages, this I'm ok with.  He decided the only way to do so was with a dramatic attack against a symbol of that tyranny, this I'm ok with.  He chose to target a building with a total combatant population of 0, this I'm not ok with.

I'm not saying I agree with or support the status-quo (reform is needed), but that doesn't make what Anders did any less wrong (IMO).

Just wanted to comment about the 0 combatants inside comment regarding the chantry. 
From the interior shots just-pre explosion, there are at least several Templars within. They do guard the Chantry as well - so we see quite often...

I've also seen comments about the innocent civilians inside because of the Rioting." these "riots" hadn't even started yet. No-one was taking refuge in the Chantry. So the losses who were legitimately innocent would have been minimal.
The entirely complicit nature of Elthina, and the Revered Mothers and Sisters of the Kirkwall chantry in regard to the templar's treatment of mages made them entirely legitimate targets of aggression. Its the teachings of these women who perpetuate the hatred and fear of mages. Worse, Its Elthina's decision to DO NOTHING that makes HER a valid target in particular.

The choice of the Kirkwall Chantry over that Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux was also an obvious one. For some odd reason Kirkwall seems to have an influence beyond its size and relevance. Kirkwall is the Centre of Templar power in the region - being at least the Free Marches, and most likely for Eastern Thedas in general. Considering the situation between Mage and Templar was reaching critical mass IN Kirkwall and not in Orlais - why choose to target the Divine, THOUSANDS of miles away, when the problem was Elthina's ineffectual presence, fostering entirely false hope in the mages (Cullen gets at least one fact right - Elthina is being cruel to them, giving them the illusion of hope) and Meredith's actions - for which, ultimately, regardless of the her power and its for some reason BSN community widely believed lack-there-of are to be laid almost entirely at Elthina's feet.

To those who claim she was neutral, i say "RUBBISH" she chose to do nothing, she did not choose to be neutral. she was entirely on the side of the Templars. talk to her, read between the lines of all her comments re: Mages, Elves, Qunari - she's a racist, hatred filled hypocrit, all wrapped up in the pleasing words of the Chant of Light... 
Any of the most likely few Lay-Brothers and Sisters inside the Chantry at the time, were perhaps the only ones innocent enough for Anders' guilt to be justified. All the others were targets who MORE than earned their deaths, blind dogmatic faith does not equal innocence. 

Modifié par devilsgrin, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:55 .

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders is about as right as Bin Laden was during 9/11.

Pretty laughable coming from a guy who thinks it's justifiable to murder Bethany in the Right of Annulment.

bin Laden was a religious nut who thought it was okay to kill "heathens" in the name of God and he'd be rewarded for it in the afterlife. That sure does sound like someone in the Kirkwall debacle...

Elaborate "I don't have to justify myself to you! :(" followed by an edit to change the message to "Nevermind." in 3... 2...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The war isn't going to do much to help unless they win it. I really hope there is some plan in mind and that we just haven't heard much of it yet - the next novel Gaider writes might shed some light on the issue.

Of course they'll win. Or at least negotiate a more fair system. It's fiction, the bad guys never win in the end. As biased as Gaider is, he even says most fans are pro-mage. Even of the pro-templar players, only a few trolls approve of how bad things have gotten with scum like Alrik and Karras. Having all this lead up to the mages going right back under the same bootheel they were under before would be akin to Mass Effect 3 having only one ending: a Reaper victory. To say it would be a bad business decision would be an understatement.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If there is a plan in the mind of mages, they get the credit for it. Not Anders. He had none.

If you played Final Fantasy VII, did you rip on Aeris for not having a plan to deal with Sephiroth after she martyred herself to give everyone else a fighting chance?

Ryzaki wrote...

And really mages winning the war will be...well I'll take that word out but it wouldn't make much sense with the current information .

You really don't 'get' fiction, do you?

DPSSOC wrote...

He chose to target a building with a total combatant population of 0, this I'm not ok with.

We only know of 4 casualties for certain. Elthina, and the 3 templars with her. So, the filth that allowed these abuses to happen, and 3 soldiers. That's your 0 combatants. ... Anyone have some asprin?

[Ausstig]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

Anders was right, now we have an reason to kill every last mage in Thades.

Right, because the actions of an individual make it totally okay to execute all members of a minority.
 

Blowing up the Chantry is like blowing up a trade centre because you don't like capitalism and western ideals, perhaps a "World Trade Centre" if you would.
Yes Anders is right and so were the Black Hand who started WW1 to gain Serbs in Austria-Hungary 'Freedom', Osama was right to blow up the WTC to gain Muslims 'Freedom'.

Bull****. Complete and utter bull****. The World Trade Centre has nothing to do with "muslim freedom" it was not imprisoning and oppressing muslims, nor was it preaching bigotry against muslims. Your comparison is so inadequate that I think it literally made me dumber.

People don't like the Chantry because they are mean to mages, but MAGES ARE DANGEROUS. They need to be controled, or they will kill anyone they want, Anders wants that.

Control does not mean "execution for failing a test". It does not mean "lifelong imprisonment for no reason". It does not mean "spread hateful lies about mages to the general populace". The Chantry cannot be trusted to monitor and regulate mages anymore than you would entrust the welfare of a black family to members of the KKK.

Mages are ordinary human beings with extra talents. You're a human being, do you go around killing anyone you feel like? No, because there is sucha  thing as impulse control, and everyone has it. Mages are no exception.

Anders spent seven years of his life in the Kirkwall sewers, healing the sick and injured of Darktown. His destruction of the Chantry was not the result of random bloodlust, it was a rational, planned attack against an institution that is responsible not only for the systematic oppression of a minority he represents, but also for centuries worth of bloodshed and conquest under the guise of holy crusade.

You COMPLETELY missed the point I was trying to make. Which was that from the point of view of a few fanatics, 'the Back Hand" osamas' little club, who's name I can't spell, or Anders, is they know best and everyone will have to live with the consequences whether they like it or not, the chantry is a symbol, and so is destroying it, like the WTC. Anders is a single man who wants mages to rule over others, he says this in Awakenings. Don't believe me? listen to what he says about Tiventer, he says it's 'another way' like a slave holding magocry is an alternate form of government?

you said that 

Mages are ordinary human beings with extra talents

That is the understatement of the game, these 'people', until they get possessed by daemons and wipeout whole towns, can mind control you, suck the life out of you, freeze you, burn you. And have the powers of a GOD. There must be harsh controls because of what happens when the fall, which they will, because they have human flaws. This is not racism, or some irrational fear, it is perfectly justified, as Anders proved when he blow up a massive building, BY HIMSELF. 

Do mages have it tough yes, BUT as spock said, "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few". Magic is a fire that threatens to consume all who use it, and when they fall they do great damage.

Anders has done nothing to help mages because in this war, as we say in the end of the game, when they have to fight, mages do terrible things, this war will prove to many people, that the chantry was if anything TOO Merciful.

In conclusion, Anders= Black Hand, Mages = GOD like powers with human flaws.
 

 

[Rifneno]

Ausstig wrote...

You COMPLETELY missed the point I was trying to make. Which was that from the point of view of a few fanatics, 'the Back Hand" osamas' little club, who's name I can't spell, or Anders, is they know best and everyone will have to live with the consequences whether they like it or not, the chantry is a symbol, and so is destroying it, like the WTC.

Except that the WTC wasn't the HQ of an organization brutally oppressing his people. He hit the Pentagon too, which while undeserving of the attack would still be a far better analogy as it's a government structure. So the WTC analogy is what, shock value? That's rhetorical BTW.

Anders is a single man who wants mages to rule over others, he says this in Awakenings. Don't believe me? listen to what he says about Tiventer, he says it's 'another way' like a slave holding magocry is an alternate form of government?

Here's what he says in DA2: "Andraste said magic should not rule over man. But it's not ruling to ask for the same rights as any man." and "I've yet to meet a mage who wants to rule over anything." among other things. He does say he thinks Tevinter's interpretation of Andraste's words, that blood magic shouldn't be used to rule, is more correct than the Orlesian Chantry's "Lock 'em up! They gots a purdy mouth!" mentality but he clearly does NOT want a mage ruled Thedas, he wants mages to have the same rights as anyone else.

That is the understatement of the game, these 'people', until they get possessed by daemons and wipeout whole towns, can mind control you, suck the life out of you, freeze you, burn you. And have the powers of a GOD. There must be harsh controls because of what happens when the fall, which they will, because they have human flaws. This is not racism, or some irrational fear, it is perfectly justified, as Anders proved when he blow up a massive building, BY HIMSELF.

Powers of a GOD. LOL. Wow. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact moment I stopped taking someone seriously before.

I guess we should lock up geniuses while we're at it. Every innovation of war we've gotten that lets someone kill people en masse was invented because someone was too smart. The best example of course is the nuclear bomb, a weapon so powerful that smart money says it'll be what eventually destroys our entire species (along with most other species). Mass extinction events, of which only five have been verified in the history of life on Earth, are triggerable at will because some people are too damn smart. Actually, they're too smart for us normals to safely lock up. Better just kill 'em instead.

In conclusion, Anders= Black Hand, Mages = GOD like powers with human flaws.

LOL. Just... LOL.

[Fidget6]

Anders killed innocents and started a war that could have been prevented. He's selfish and unstable.

[Rifneno]

Fidget6 wrote...

Anders killed innocents and started a war that could have been prevented. He's selfish and unstable.

Prevented how?  By submitting to brutal oppression?  War is a horrible thing, but it's better than that.

[devilsgrin]

Rifneno wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

Anders killed innocents and started a war that could have been prevented. He's selfish and unstable.

Prevented how?  By submitting to brutal oppression?  War is a horrible thing, but it's better than that.

Exactly. As Anders himself says "better a quick death now, than a slow one later"

[DKJaigen]

@Austigg nobody on the pro-mage side says that the mages should not have an strict and unbending code of conduct because they are indeed dangerous if untrained or undisciplined. But the templars and Chantry are not the organisations that should enforce that code. The mage-tempar war is because of the idiocy chantry. And its the common people that will suffer for it.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
And here I thought a millennium of brutal oppression and tyranny qualifies as starting something. My bad.

Then why doesn't that justify the Right of Annulment (all mages are potentially military combatants and a representative of the mages orbital laser'd the Chantry), or the entirety of the oppression (the war was going on becase of the millenium of oppression, so Meredith ran the Circle like a PoW camp)?

The problem with saying that the mages and templars were already at war is the issue of then justifying why the templars aren't justified in just treating the mages like military targets in the "war is hell" approach. 

edit: 

Even worse, if all mages are at war with the bombing of the Chantry, why isn't Meredith justified in considering Anders's actions representative of all mages? 

Modifié par In Exile, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:32 .