1411 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

devilsgrin wrote...
Exactly. As Anders himself says "better a quick death now, than a slow one later"

Why does Anders have the right to make that choice for every mage in Kirkwall?

[OldMan91]

In Exile wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...
Exactly. As Anders himself says "better a quick death now, than a slow one later"

Why does Anders have the right to make that choice for every mage in Kirkwall?

Is it important whether Anders has the metaphysical right to impose his choice on others?

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

Then why doesn't that justify the Right of Annulment (all mages are potentially military combatants and a representative of the mages orbital laser'd the Chantry), or the entirety of the oppression (the war was going on becase of the millenium of oppression, so Meredith ran the Circle like a PoW camp)?

Because there's a difference between a group of people who willing joined an organization that savagely oppresses a minority, and a group of people who share a genetic trait common to every sapient species besides dwarves?

In Exile wrote...

Why does Anders have the right to make that choice for every mage in Kirkwall?

Oh God. Not this one again. By this "logic," no one ever has the right to go to war because you'll never get a 100% agreement on any war when there's millions of people. I'm seriously starting to consider just writing hotkeys in my G15 to give canned responses to the apparently canned questions.

[In Exile]

OldMan91 wrote...
Is it important whether Anders has the metaphysical right to impose his choice on others?

Aren't we debating the morality of what Anders did? If so, yeah.

Rifneno wrote...Because there's a difference between a group of people who willing joined an organization that savagely oppresses a minority, and a group of people who share a genetic trait common to every sapient species besides dwarves?

They're at war and by your terms ''war is hell''. You believe that the Chantry itself is a legitimate military target. Why are mages not legitimate military targets? Especially after what in your words was an act of war?

What is the difference between Anders attacking the Chantry because it represents the oppresion of mages and houses the Grand Gleric and Meredith killing every potential combatant mage within Kirkwall? 

Do you think the Chantry didn't house children? Is it the potential number of chidlren Anders killed compared to the potential number of children Meredith will kill that's at issue?

How disgustingly immoral the Chantry is has nothing to do with what you said is justified in war, and how you said Anders was justified to strike against the Chantry. 

Oh God. Not this one again. By this "logic," no one ever has the right to go to war because you'll never get a 100% agreement on any war when there's millions of people. I'm seriously starting to consider just writing hotkeys in my G15 to give canned responses to the apparently canned questions.

That's not the same thing at all. Going to war is something nations do. Citizens plausily have representation. Even if you're talking about feudal societies or dictatorships, those countries will still argue that there is a mass action at work where the governement can make choices on behalf of the people. How is this in any way similar to Anders?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Except that for going to war you at least need to have popular support. Anders did not. He effectively started a war the mages did not neccesarily want in the first place. That is why he was in the wrong.

[esper]

@In Exile. The mages don't have a nation to go to war for them, only Tevinter, and they belong to a different chantry belief and is at war with the qunari. As for the morality of the bombing. Murder is never morally right, but sometimes it is a necessity. Anders made a point that had to be made.

[OldMan91]

Aren't we debating the morality of what Anders did? If so, yeah.

Why is imposing your choice onto someone a question of morality or imagined rights in this case? Are you saying that it's immoral to do so? I would think that the actual killing of presumed innocents is a more relevant moral dilemma.

That's not the same thing at all. Going to war is something nations do

Not at all. There have been plenty of wars waged within the borders of nations. The term for that is a Civil War. Then again it wasn't Anders who actually started the war. It was the Circles of Magi throughout Thedas.

Modifié par OldMan91, 10 juillet 2011 - 06:28 .

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
Pretty laughable coming from a guy who thinks it's justifiable to murder Bethany in the Right of Annulment.

bin Laden was a religious nut who thought it was okay to kill "heathens" in the name of God and he'd be rewarded for it in the afterlife. That sure does sound like someone in the Kirkwall debacle...

Elaborate "I don't have to justify myself to you! :(" followed by an edit to change the message to "Nevermind." in 3... 2...

Go kick rocks. Your condescending idiocy is irksome at this point. Ah **** it. I'll just set the App I have to ignore your posts as well it's working pretty well so far.

And I'm not a "guy" hun. 

And don't bother talking about Bin Laden when you don't even know what he was trying to do. It makes you look even more ignorant. 

Also as for not "getting" fiction. You clearly don't get what foreshadowing, reasonable and coherent storyline are about do you? Most games have asspulls do the nature of the medium. There is a 99% chance ME3 will resolve the reapers with an asspull. But that's okay because it's a game. That doesn't make it any less of an asspull. 

But by all means continue on your ridculous crusade to be a smug tool acting like your morality is somehow "superior" to anyone else's and somehow morality falls into a right or wrong tick box. Have a nice day.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:18 .

[In Exile]

esper wrote...
@In Exile. The mages don't have a nation to go to war for them, only Tevinter, and they belong to a different chantry belief and is at war with the qunari. As for the morality of the bombing. Murder is never morally right, but sometimes it is a necessity. Anders made a point that had to be made.

What point? That if you oppress mages, every single murder and rapist will be allowed to go unscathed, and mages will do everything in their power to turn popular opinion against their cause so that the murderers and rapists will have  a carte blanche to do both?

OldMan91 wrote..
Why is imposing your choice onto someone a question of morality or imagined rights in this case? Are you saying that it's immoral to do so? I would think that the actual killing of presumed innocents is a more relevant moral dilemma.

If it wasn't clear, yes, I'm saying that making a decision about what cause others should sacrifice their life for is immoral. 

The mages themselves are, by and large, innocent. Anders does what he does specifically to rally the templars against the mages to force the mages to rebel. When I say he's making a choice for others, I mean he's essentialy forcing them to die or fight. He plan directly involves the death of innocent mages as a foreseeable consequence of what he does.

Not at all. There have been plenty of wars waged within the borders of nations. The term for that is a Civil War. Then again it wasn't Anders who actually started the war. It was the Circles of Magi throughout Thedas.

I'm not talking about what happened in Thedas. Post-Kirkwall is a very different situation, and I can't see any way that isn't justified. But Kirkwall itself was different. In fact, the 'war' as a whole is the best example:

Arguing that suggesting that Anders can't star a war by himself is equivalent to no one ever being able to start wars is a stupid argument, not the least of which that even in civil wars, you have groups of people taking action under their joint identity. There is a major difference between 'individual' and 'us'. 

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that for going to war you at least need to have popular support. Anders did not. He effectively started a war the mages did not neccesarily want in the first place. That is why he was in the wrong.

But they did as every circle rebelled against the chantry. so he did the right thing. Furthermore i have a hard time seeing anders walking from circle to circle asking its leaders if they support a war

[esper]

@In Exile. I apologize. English is not my first langue and I don't quite grasp the grammer so I sometimes can't formulate me clearly. I'll try and explain what I mean:

1. I define murder as killing someone. I do not believe in death sentence, to quote the character I dislike second most in the game, Death is never Justice. Robbing another person of their life is murder not matter what.


2. In game, however, there is more than one situation where I feel it is a necessity to kill someone. Alrik is an example, because he clearly treathens to rape Ella, Quentin (spelled?) is another example, because whatever he had planned with the frankenstein corpse it properly wasn't good for Kirkwall. Does that mean that it wasn't murder to kill those two? No. It still was, but I felt that it was necessary in the situations to 1. protect a poor girl, 2. safe the city from a manic. I still chose to value one person life over another which is always morally wrong, but in the situation it was clearly either-or.

3. About Anders and Mages: I am pro-mage. I admit that. I don't think that you have the right to sacrifice basic human-rights of a minority to gain safety for the majority. Seen in that light, Anders' action was a necessary. If something hadn't been done mages would have been supressed for another 1000 years, and Thedas does only understand the langues of blood. War is not the horror for the common people as it is for us. Soldier is a solid career, and Thedas has had not WW1 and WW2 to scare people of war. Before WW1 people did not hate war, it was seen as a totally legalised method of making the nation more rich. Thedas has the same mentally. Most of their heroes are warriors. Andraste waged war agaist the imperium, people praise her for that. The nations of Thedas rallied agaist the qunaries. An and exhalthed march is a fancy word for war. We can hope that the mage-templar war is the war that will change the common people view of war, but it needs to happen.

Seen in that light I simply don't believe that the mages can gain their right through dimplomacy. And therefore I see it Anders as nercassary to change the situation. Does that mean that I in the situation valued mages lives more than the chantry people and random bystander: Yes! Was that morally right: No! But I had to choose and I chose the ideals (freedom) I believe in.

That does not mean that I think that mages can't be rapist, murderes and every other terrible thing in the world, and I don't think that all mages will do is stand by and heal. There will be blood from both sides and it will be terrible, but it is a revolution and it is nercassary to change Thedas,

[DPSSOC]

devilsgrin wrote...
Just wanted to comment about the 0 combatants inside comment regarding the chantry. 
From the interior shots just-pre explosion, there are at least several Templars within. They do guard the Chantry as well - so we see quite often...

Then I stand corrected.

devilsgrin wrote...
The entirely complicit nature of Elthina, and the Revered Mothers and Sisters of the Kirkwall chantry in regard to the templar's treatment of mages made them entirely legitimate targets of aggression. Its the teachings of these women who perpetuate the hatred and fear of mages.

Here's the problem, if you regard everyone who is complicit in the oppression of mages as a legitimate target that makes everyone a legitimate target.  Every man, woman, and child who didn't act against the Chantry and the Circle was complicit in what they were doing.  It's the same with all forms of oppression if you regard anyone who didn't act to stop it as being guilty then you have a very shot list of who can be spared.

So how far do you take that?  How far until you say the people are far enough removed as to escape execution?  Much as we might like to think otherwise everyone except Elthina was powerless to reign Meredith in.  She was the only one with the authority to stop what was going on.  So do you blame those who couldn't do anything for not?  The Templars and Mages under Thrask had a viable alternative, they could fight, but for Brothers and Sisters of the Chantry that wasn't an option.

devilsgrin wrote...
Worse, Its Elthina's decision to DO NOTHING that makes HER a valid target in particular.

Completely agree, Elthina was a valid target and I recognize the necessity of her death to jump start the war, but there was no need to destroy the Chantry to do it. 

[OldMan91]

In Exile wrote...

If it wasn't clear, yes, I'm saying that making a decision about what cause others should sacrifice their life for is immoral. 

The mages themselves are, by and large, innocent. Anders does what he does specifically to rally the templars against the mages to force the mages to rebel. When I say he's making a choice for others, I mean he's essentialy forcing them to die or fight. He plan directly involves the death of innocent mages as a foreseeable consequence of what he does.

The longer term benefits may be worth this consequence. Similar arranagements are made when governments decide to enact a conscription policy as a means to build up their military to fight to preserve or expand their influence. Essentially you're still forced to fight for a cause you may or may not believe in.

I'm not talking about what happened in Thedas. Post-Kirkwall is a very different situation, and I can't see any way that isn't justified. But Kirkwall itself was different. In fact, the 'war' as a whole is the best example:

Arguing that suggesting that Anders can't star a war by himself is equivalent to no one ever being able to start wars is a stupid argument, not the least of which that even in civil wars, you have groups of people taking action under their joint identity. There is a major difference between 'individual' and 'us'.

We are in agreement.

[HTTP 404]

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

[Ausstig]

Rifneno wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

You COMPLETELY missed the point I was trying to make. Which was that from the point of view of a few fanatics, 'the Back Hand" osamas' little club, who's name I can't spell, or Anders, is they know best and everyone will have to live with the consequences whether they like it or not, the chantry is a symbol, and so is destroying it, like the WTC.

Except that the WTC wasn't the HQ of an organization brutally oppressing his people. He hit the Pentagon too, which while undeserving of the attack would still be a far better analogy as it's a government structure. So the WTC analogy is what, shock value? That's rhetorical BTW.

Anders is a single man who wants mages to rule over others, he says this in Awakenings. Don't believe me? listen to what he says about Tiventer, he says it's 'another way' like a slave holding magocry is an alternate form of government?

Here's what he says in DA2: "Andraste said magic should not rule over man. But it's not ruling to ask for the same rights as any man." and "I've yet to meet a mage who wants to rule over anything." among other things. He does say he thinks Tevinter's interpretation of Andraste's words, that blood magic shouldn't be used to rule, is more correct than the Orlesian Chantry's "Lock 'em up! They gots a purdy mouth!" mentality but he clearly does NOT want a mage ruled Thedas, he wants mages to have the same rights as anyone else.

That is the understatement of the game, these 'people', until they get possessed by daemons and wipeout whole towns, can mind control you, suck the life out of you, freeze you, burn you. And have the powers of a GOD. There must be harsh controls because of what happens when the fall, which they will, because they have human flaws. This is not racism, or some irrational fear, it is perfectly justified, as Anders proved when he blow up a massive building, BY HIMSELF.

Powers of a GOD. LOL. Wow. I've never been able to pinpoint the exact moment I stopped taking someone seriously before.

I guess we should lock up geniuses while we're at it. Every innovation of war we've gotten that lets someone kill people en masse was invented because someone was too smart. The best example of course is the nuclear bomb, a weapon so powerful that smart money says it'll be what eventually destroys our entire species (along with most other species). Mass extinction events, of which only five have been verified in the history of life on Earth, are triggerable at will because some people are too damn smart. Actually, they're too smart for us normals to safely lock up. Better just kill 'em instead.

In conclusion, Anders= Black Hand, Mages = GOD like powers with human flaws.

LOL. Just... LOL.

Are you saying that Mages don't have powers others don't? OR Are you saying that Anders isn't acting for what he sees as mages best interests with thinking about the consequences?

How or why do you equate smart people to people who can shoot fire out of their hands. Geniuses can't make weapons of war without help. Mages don't need that they can kill a lot of people on their own. A better example would if some people were born with an assault with unlimited ammo, attached to their body. If these people existed in real life would you want to run around the same as every one else? there are enough shooting rampages already don't you think? 

Mages have great power, to do great good or great evil, but in the history of Thedas it has only really been used for evil. 
I can see where Anders is coming from freedom is nice but is it worth the risk?

[HSHAW]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

Didn't they nearly get an exalted march called on them until the divine of the time was talked into letting the mages live by the Templars the last time they tried that?

[Plaintiff]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

Peaceful protest is not an option for the mages. They live in a society where they have next to no rights, and they can be imprisoned, tranquiled or executed outright at any time. Even if Anders could organize a peaceful protest on the steps of the Chantry, he would be forced into violence when the Templars came along to arrest and kill him.

Their only choice is to strike the first blow, and to make it count.

[Teddie Sage]

Fidget6 wrote...

Anders killed innocents and started a war that could have been prevented. He's selfish and unstable.

Without a Renegade action, there's nothing we could've done.

[HTTP 404]

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

Peaceful protest is not an option for the mages. They live in a society where they have next to no rights, and they can be imprisoned, tranquiled or executed outright at any time. Even if Anders could organize a peaceful protest on the steps of the Chantry, he would be forced into violence when the Templars came along to arrest and kill him.

Their only choice is to strike the first blow, and to make it count.

how is peaceful protest not an option?  All Anders is doing is condemning mages to death.  Do you really think the general population will support the mage plight after Anders destroyed a church?  Keep in mind, the general population are followers of the Chantry.

You don't gain support by slapping the people you want support from.    If mages want true freedom, they need the people to support them or wipe everyone out who are not magic users.

the people will want blood, and that blood will be mage blood.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:39 .

[Rifneno]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

And you should learn through the codex. Peaceful protest is not an option. Mages are having their minds destroyed for voicing discontent, let alone organized protest.

HSHAW wrote...

Didn't they nearly get an exalted march called on them until the divine of the time was talked into letting the mages live by the Templars the last time they tried that?

Yes. The Divine wanted to start a war when the mages refused to light some candles in an organized and peaceful protest. Anders himself covers this topic in Act I when talking to Bethany. When they use the Rite of Tranquility as they do, they leave violence as the only resort and force free mages to make every fight to the death. The Chantry is wholly to blame for the reason it's not a peaceful protest as they are the ones that precluded it.

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Wait a minute. Anders is in no way representative of all the Circle and the mages. If so, he should have been the "president/prime magister :P" of them and his action would be justified because he represent the interest of the mages. But he is in no way qualify to act like he did in Dragon Age 2. Only the people elected or appointed to power have the right to start war. It is not in the right of a "civilian" to start war and make the world blow up because he's mad. Hell, we call that terrorist this day...

This was just covered. Pay attention. There is no united leader for mages and there cannot be as long as Chantry control exists. Do you think the Chantry is going to let the mages form an organized government to declare war on them? Positively ridiculous. The fact that the Anders haters are so stuck up on the "he's not their designated leader!" thing just shows how desperate the stance is. All the atrocities going on, and you cling to a complaint that he doesn't have the legal right to say "go." Especially since it's a moot point. It's damn clear the mages DID want to go to war since every single Circle rebelled. Every last one. Not one Circle decided to sit back and take more tyranny, but we're supposed to believe through all the horror the Chantry has inflicted that Anders is the bad guy because he made a call that turned out to be the correct one. Riiiiight.

"We" call it terrorism, do we? Who appointed you "our" leader to decide these things?

[River5]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

Here was Ghandi's advice to the British people when invasion by the **** became imminent:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...  If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

For some reason, I am somewhat happy that we ended up not following his views on "peaceful resistance".

If the only option for mages to practice "peaceful resistance" is for them not to submit to the Chantry, yet still allow every single mage to be slaughtered / made tranquil.  Or commit mass suicide...  I'm not really certain how I feel about that.

Modifié par River5, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:04 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Anders should learn from Ghandi through peaceful protest. Anders is dooming the mages by protesting with violence.

Peaceful protest is not an option for the mages. They live in a society where they have next to no rights, and they can be imprisoned, tranquiled or executed outright at any time. Even if Anders could organize a peaceful protest on the steps of the Chantry, he would be forced into violence when the Templars came along to arrest and kill him.

Their only choice is to strike the first blow, and to make it count.

how is peaceful protest not an option?  All Anders is doing is condemning mages to death.  Do you really think the general population will support the mage plight after Anders destroyed a church?  Keep in mind, the general population are followers of the Chantry.

You don't gain support by slapping the people you want support from.    If mages want true freedom, they need the people to support them or wipe everyone out who are not magic users.

the people will want blood, and that blood will be mage blood.

There are other concerns in Thedas besides religion, though. For example, do you think Alistair or Anora are going to allow Templars to march through their kingdom, especially considering the fact that both the Templar Order and the Chantry are organizations centered in Orlais, the country that pretty much every Fereldan views with more suspicion than mages? What about Rivain, or Antiva, both of which are more libertine with magic?

Peaceful protest was not an option because people did not see the occasional extermination of mages or making them Tranquil as horrific. For the people of Thedas, it was more like Tuesday. Just lying down and taking it from the Templars wouldn't convince anyone that they needed to be free.

[Plaintiff]

HTTP 404 wrote...
how is peaceful protest not an option?

For the exact reason I just said. The Chantry can, has and will approve the use of extreme force in shutting mages up. They won't get a chance to protest peacefully, the Templars will tranquil them first. They already get brutally punished all the time for no reason at all. Circle Mages in Kirkwall can't even leave the Gallows. Exactly how are they supposed to organize this "peaceful protest"? Nevermind the fact that Anders spent seven years writing and distributing manifestos and they didn't even make a dent.

The Chantry is not and never will be swayed by peaceful protest. Why? Because it doesn't need to negotiate, it already holds all the cards. The only way a real compromise can ever be made is if the mages have some sort of leverage. They have to wrest power away from the Chantry and it's completely obvious that violence is the only language the Chantry understands.

All Anders is doing is condemning mages to death.

The mages are condemned to death anyway. The Chantry continues to restrict and restrict them. In the Kirkwall Circle they endure torture and rape at the hands of sadists. Death would, in fact, be preferable to many. At least in a war, they have a fighting chance, they wield considerable destructive force and at the end of DA2 they are presented as a cohesive, united group with singular purpose, while the Chantry and the Templars are divided and in disarray.

Do you really think the general population will support the mage plight after Anders destroyed a church?  Keep in mind, the general population are followers of the Chantry.

As with all political issues, the general populace will be divided. There are people in Kirkwall and elsewhere, from the peasantry to the nobility, who have seen firsthand the abuses inflicted on the mages and would support them in the fight for freedom. Some nobles, like Arl Eamon and the De Launcets, have mages in their own family. Not to mention that any noble with sense will see the value and benefit in freeing mages from the influence of the Chantry.

It'smade perfectly clear throughout both games that not everyone supports the Chantry. Ferelden in particular has a long-seated suspicion and dislike of the Chantry, for its support of the Orlesian occupation. If you crowned Alistair as king, you can see that he has made Ferelden a haven for mages fleeing Kirkwall, much to Meredith's chagrin.

You don't gain support by slapping the people you want support from.    If mages want true freedom, they need the people to support them or wipe everyone out who are not magic users.

Anders spent the greater part of a decade healing the sick and injured of Darktown while the Chantry did **** all. His selflessness and sacrifice did nothing at all to sway the Templars or the Chantry from the iron-hard conviction of their bigotry. They disregarded his commendable actions and continued to treat him as a threat. At this point, I'd say they deserve to be wiped out, if only to prevent their ignorance from breeding. The "people" are informed by the bigoted bile spewed by the Chantry and Templars. Once the flow of lies is dammed up, they can be educated.

the people will want blood, and that blood will be mage blood.

I would love to see them try and get it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:18 .

[Josielyn]

It is too bad that Meredith didn't go up in smoke with the building, and it would have been fun if a Tevinter-blood-mage-mind-controlled templar steps up to take her role and the "normal" mages end up saving the innocent civilians from the crazed blood-mage-mind-controlled templars-on-a-rampage.