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[HTTP 404]

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
how is peaceful protest not an option?

For the exact reason I just said. The Chantry can, has and will approve the use of extreme force in shutting mages up. They won't get a chance to protest peacefully, the Templars will tranquil them first. They already get brutally punished all the time for no reason at all. Circle Mages in Kirkwall can't even leave the Gallows. Exactly how are they supposed to organize this "peaceful protest"? Nevermind the fact that Anders spent seven years writing and distributing manifestos and they didn't even make a dent.

The Chantry is not and never will be swayed by peaceful protest. Why? Because it doesn't need to negotiate, it already holds all the cards. The only way a real compromise can ever be made is if the mages have some sort of leverage. They have to wrest power away from the Chantry and it's completely obvious that violence is the only language the Chantry understands.

All Anders is doing is condemning mages to death.

The mages are condemned to death anyway. The Chantry continues to restrict and restrict them. In the Kirkwall Circle they endure torture and rape at the hands of sadists. Death would, in fact, be preferable to many. At least in a war, they have a fighting chance, they wield considerable destructive force and at the end of DA2 they are presented as a cohesive, united group with singular purpose, while the Chantry and the Templars are divided and in disarray.

Do you really think the general population will support the mage plight after Anders destroyed a church?  Keep in mind, the general population are followers of the Chantry.

As with all political issues, the general populace will be divided. There are people in Kirkwall and elsewhere, from the peasantry to the nobility, who have seen firsthand the abuses inflicted on the mages and would support them in the fight for freedom. Some nobles, like Arl Eamon and the De Launcets, have mages in their own family. Not to mention that any noble with sense will see the value and benefit in freeing mages from the influence of the Chantry.

It'smade perfectly clear throughout both games that not everyone supports the Chantry. Ferelden in particular has a long-seated suspicion and dislike of the Chantry, for its support of the Orlesian occupation. If you crowned Alistair as king, you can see that he has made Ferelden a haven for mages fleeing Kirkwall, much to Meredith's chagrin.

You don't gain support by slapping the people you want support from.    If mages want true freedom, they need the people to support them or wipe everyone out who are not magic users.

Anders spent the greater part of a decade healing the sick and injured of Darktown while the Chantry did **** all. His selflessness and sacrifice did nothing at all to sway the Templars or the Chantry from the iron-hard conviction of their bigotry. They disregarded his commendable actions and continued to treat him as a threat. At this point, I'd say they deserve to be wiped out, if only to prevent their ignorance from breeding. The "people" are informed by the bigoted bile spewed by the Chantry and Templars. Once the flow of lies is dammed up, they can be educated.

the people will want blood, and that blood will be mage blood.

I would love to see them try and get it.

an eye for an eye, makes the world blind.  Don't mistake me disagreeing with Anders methods as being unsympathitic about the mages plight nor does it make me pro Chantry .  I think they deserve to be free but murder is not the answer: that is my argument here.  Anders became as bad as his oppresors when he blew up that church.

[beckaliz]

Anders himself doesn't think that he did the "right" thing. Meaning he doesn't think it was moral. He just thinks it was necessary. He was also pretty frustrated and desperate at that point.

Modifié par beckaliz, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[River5]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (I'll let you guess that one)

How can we expect mages to manifest peacefully, and gather support from the population while they are forbidden to make contact with the outside world? Or, simply offering shelter for the night to an apostate relative is enough to have you hanged, or slaughtered in front of your own home?

To say that the Chantry is responsible for this war is an understatement.

People who are suffering will eventually need to make their voices heard, one way or another. If they aren't allowed any means to express themselves peacefully, then they will eventually resort to violence. There is no other way around it.

I would like for people advocating for "peaceful resistance", in the context of the Kirkwall Chantry, to name a single way that it could have been achieved (at the end of Act 3, with the means and leverage that mages had at their disposition).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm curious, as I have found none.

Well no, it isn't true... I suppose that all mages in the Gallows could have resorted to killing themselves in a massive show of "civil disobedience", hoping that the good people of Kirkwall would suddenly realize that the Chantry and its Templars are going WAY too far if that many mages would rather die than to accept the supposed "security" that the Circle is willing to provide them.

But as I said earlier, I am feeling uncomfortable with that option.

[Plaintiff]

HTTP 404 wrote...
an eye for an eye, makes the world blind.  Don't mistake me disagreeing with Anders methods as being unsympathitic about the mages plight nor does it make me pro Chantry .  I think they deserve to be free but murder is not the answer: that is my argument here.  Anders became as bad as his oppresors when he blew up that church.

You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

[HTTP 404]

River5 wrote...

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (I'll let you guess that one)

How can we expect mages to manifest peacefully, and gather support from the population while they are forbidden to make contact with the outside world? Or, simply offering shelter for the night to an apostate relative is enough to have you hanged, or slaughtered in front of your own home?

To say that the Chantry is responsible for this war is an understatement.

People who are suffering will eventually need to make their voices heard, one way or another. If they aren't allowed any means to express themselves peacefully, then they will eventually resort to violence. There is no other way around it.

I would like for people advocating for "peaceful resistance", in the context of the Kirkwall Chantry, to name a single way that it could have been achieved (at the end of Act 3, with the means and leverage that mages had at their disposition).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm curious, as I have found none.

Well no, it isn't true... I suppose that all mages in the Gallows could have resorted to killing themselves in a massive show of "civil disobedience", hoping that the good people of Kirkwall would suddenly realize that the Chantry and its Templars are going WAY too far if that many mages would rather die than to accept the supposed "security" that the Circle is willing to provide them.

But as I said earlier, I am feeling uncomfortable with that option.

the underground railroad is a good method.  Getting sympathatic support from templars, nobles to spread the word.  It isn't impossible.  A peaceful solution isn't easy nor is it as obvious.  A violent solution is easy to see but results in less what both sides would bargain for.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[HTTP 404]

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
an eye for an eye, makes the world blind.  Don't mistake me disagreeing with Anders methods as being unsympathitic about the mages plight nor does it make me pro Chantry .  I think they deserve to be free but murder is not the answer: that is my argument here.  Anders became as bad as his oppresors when he blew up that church.

You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

I disagree, Anders did what his impluses needed.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
how is peaceful protest not an option?

For the exact reason I just said. The Chantry can, has and will approve the use of extreme force in shutting mages up. They won't get a chance to protest peacefully, the Templars will tranquil them first.

This raises an interesting question; don't they need Mages to Tranquil them?  From what I've heard described making someone Tranquil is a magical act, so if the Mages simply refused to assist (if indeed their assistance is necessary) the Templars would have no course but to kill them all, and given that Elthina wouldn't sign on the Right of Annulment for lunatic Blood Mages I don't see her doing it for a peaceful sit-in.  Though maybe I'm missing something, Tranquility doesn't seem like it would work well as a deterrent or punishment if it required the cooperation of other mages.

[River5]

HTTP 404 wrote...

River5 wrote...

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (I'll let you guess that one)

How can we expect mages to manifest peacefully, and gather support from the population while they are forbidden to make contact with the outside world? Or, simply offering shelter for the night to an apostate relative is enough to have you hanged, or slaughtered in front of your own home?

To say that the Chantry is responsible for this war is an understatement.

People who are suffering will eventually need to make their voices heard, one way or another. If they aren't allowed any means to express themselves peacefully, then they will eventually resort to violence. There is no other way around it.

I would like for people advocating for "peaceful resistance", in the context of the Kirkwall Chantry, to name a single way that it could have been achieved (at the end of Act 3, with the means and leverage that mages had at their disposition).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm curious, as I have found none.

Well no, it isn't true... I suppose that all mages in the Gallows could have resorted to killing themselves in a massive show of "civil disobedience", hoping that the good people of Kirkwall would suddenly realize that the Chantry and its Templars are going WAY too far if that many mages would rather die than to accept the supposed "security" that the Circle is willing to provide them.

But as I said earlier, I am feeling uncomfortable with that option.

the underground railroad is a good method.  Getting sympathatic support from templars, nobles to spread the word.  It isn't impossible.  A peaceful solution isn't easy nor is it as obvious.  A violent solution is by far the simplest path to take.

There already WAS an underground railroad.  The mage underground (Anders was one of their members).  And they were eventually worn off by Meredith's troops.

Sympathetic templars and mages tried to join forces, lead by Ser Thrask...  And they were all killed or executed when their attempt to overthrow Meredith failed (except Samson, Keran, and/or Alain if you intervene).

Nobles had no more leverage regarding the issue since the city was under martial law.

So, what else?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Elthina might not approve of it, but by Act III, would Meredith care? Orsino actually tried to go to Elthina so she could mediate their disagreement, but Meredith wouldn't have it.

[beckaliz]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
how is peaceful protest not an option?

For the exact reason I just said. The Chantry can, has and will approve the use of extreme force in shutting mages up. They won't get a chance to protest peacefully, the Templars will tranquil them first.

This raises an interesting question; don't they need Mages to Tranquil them?  From what I've heard described making someone Tranquil is a magical act, so if the Mages simply refused to assist (if indeed their assistance is necessary) the Templars would have no course but to kill them all, and given that Elthina wouldn't sign on the Right of Annulment for lunatic Blood Mages I don't see her doing it for a peaceful sit-in.  Though maybe I'm missing something, Tranquility doesn't seem like it would work well as a deterrent or punishment if it required the cooperation of other mages.

I don't think we've ever gotten a clear description from the devs on what the process of Tranquility entails. If you have source on that I'd like to see it.

But Templars can use dampening powers to drain mana and negate magical effects/abilities, so it stands to reason that they would not need any mages for this at all. Not to mention that there's always going to be one or two individuals in any group (in this case mages) willing to sell out the others for some personal benefit.

[River5]

DPSSOC wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
how is peaceful protest not an option?

For the exact reason I just said. The Chantry can, has and will approve the use of extreme force in shutting mages up. They won't get a chance to protest peacefully, the Templars will tranquil them first.

This raises an interesting question; don't they need Mages to Tranquil them?  From what I've heard described making someone Tranquil is a magical act, so if the Mages simply refused to assist (if indeed their assistance is necessary) the Templars would have no course but to kill them all, and given that Elthina wouldn't sign on the Right of Annulment for lunatic Blood Mages I don't see her doing it for a peaceful sit-in.  Though maybe I'm missing something, Tranquility doesn't seem like it would work well as a deterrent or punishment if it required the cooperation of other mages.

They use a magical brand made of lyrium to cut off a mage's connection to the Fade.  So I suppose that no mage is required to perform the procedure itself.

Source: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tranquil#The_Tranquil

Modifié par River5, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:00 .

[HTTP 404]

River5 wrote...

There already WAS an underground railroad.  The mage underground (Anders was one of their members).  And they were eventually worn off by Meredith's troops.

Sympathetic templars and mages tried to join forces, lead by Ser Thrask...  And they were all killed or executed when their attempt to overthrow Meredith failed (except Samson, Keran, and/or Alain if you intervene).

Nobles had no more leverage regarding the issue since the city was under martial law.

So, what else?

just because something has been tried doesn't mean it should be tried again.  Many times success comes with failure.  All the examples you gave are good reasons that a legitmate underground revolution could happen. 

it is only in being a defeatist, did Anders turn to violence.  The underground railroad wasn't without its successes, mages did get through.  Merediths authority was first quesitoned by Thrask and we all know that Knight Captain Cullen would eventually opposed Meredith's methods coupled with Liliana's investagation would have helped the mages cause.

so what else?  there's a lot of options.  just because it isn't obvious in some cases doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say "lets blow something up"

[CrimsonZephyr]

The problem with peaceful resistance was that "killing every mage or subjugating them through fear" was the status quo accepted by a majority of the Andrastians in non-Tevinter Thedas. Perhaps it is different in Ferelden now, but in Kirkwall, if the mages were all massacred, no one would lift a finger to oppose Meredith. To them, there are dead mages every Tuesday. The mages needed leverage and they had none.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[River5]

HTTP 404 wrote...

just because something has been tried doesn't mean it should be tried again.  Many times success comes with failure.  All the examples you gave are good reasons that a legitmate underground revolution could happen. 

it is only in being a defeatist, did Anders turn to violence.  The underground railroad wasn't without its successes, mages did get through.  Merediths authority was first quesitoned by Thrask and we all know that Knight Captain Cullen would eventually opposed Meredith's methods coupled with Liliana's investagation would have helped the mages cause.

so what else?  there's a lot of options.  just because it isn't obvious in some cases doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say "lets blow something up"

Except that mages were running out of time.  Meredith had already sent for the Right of Annulment to the Divine.  And since the Divine herself was considering launching an exalted march on Kirkwall, who's to say that she wouldn't have gotten it?

Anders probably thought that by having Meredith invoke the Right of Annulment on the Circle for the actions of one apostate, instead of waiting for her to obtain it through legitimate channels, the mages would stand a better chance, and other Circles may see Meredith's actions (attacking the Circle for an action that was beyond their control) as justification enough to lose trust in the Templars, and fight for their own freedom.

[beckaliz]

I object to a certain extent with Anders' act being compared to real life terrorist acts. The world of Thedas as a whole is undeniably completely different from our own world. Hawke et. al. run around all day and night and kill how many people? Even if you don't take into account the extra waves of bad guys parachuting onto the scene. That being said, it's inevitable that comparisons will be made, but it should be taken into account that killing for survival is a regular occurrence in Thedas.

The Chantry is supposed to be the oversight committee of the Templar Order. They're the ones who wrote the laws, and Meredith was breaking a lot of Chantry laws, and Elthina... didn't want to take sides? It's like leaving an older child to babysit the younger ones, and the babysitter takes liberties they're not supposed to do, and then mom says, Oh, they'll get along if the Maker wants them to. It shouldn't have been an issue of taking sides. The Templars are supposed to be the strong arm to make sure the Chantry's will and laws are enforced, and I just don't think the Chant includes anything about how much the mages are abused.

Elthina knew that somebody was going to do something drastic at some point, and she was willing to just let it happen and leave it in the Maker's hands. So, ok. Based on her inaction and a couple of those things that she said, I kinda think she wouldn't necessarily mind getting blown up. XD;;;;; And before anyone jumps down my throat on that point, I know it's an exaggerated statement, but I'm just sayin'! She was kind of asking for it.

EDIT: Also, she refused to leave when Leliana came around, and she said that dying in service to the Maker would be an honor, or something like that.

Modifié par beckaliz, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:22 .

[HTTP 404]

River5 wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

just because something has been tried doesn't mean it should be tried again.  Many times success comes with failure.  All the examples you gave are good reasons that a legitmate underground revolution could happen. 

it is only in being a defeatist, did Anders turn to violence.  The underground railroad wasn't without its successes, mages did get through.  Merediths authority was first quesitoned by Thrask and we all know that Knight Captain Cullen would eventually opposed Meredith's methods coupled with Liliana's investagation would have helped the mages cause.

so what else?  there's a lot of options.  just because it isn't obvious in some cases doesn't mean we throw up our hands and say "lets blow something up"

Except that mages were running out of time.  Meredith had already sent for the Right of Annulment to the Divine.  And since the Divine herself was considering launching an exalted march on Kirkwall, who's to say that she wouldn't have gotten it?

Anders probably thought that by having Meredith invoke the Right of Annulment on the Circle for the actions of one apostate, instead of waiting for her to obtain it through legitimate channels, the mages would stand a better chance, and other Circles may see Meredith's actions (attacking the Circle for an action that was beyond their control) as justification enough to lose trust in the Templars, and fight for their own freedom.

Running out of time?  All of what you were worried about happened when Ander's actually blew up that church.

there's no proof that meredith would have gotten the rite of annulment before Ander's action.  And there is no proof the divine was going to actually call for an Exalted March. 

[Tyrium]

Actually, it's explicitly stated Meredith called for the rite in Act 3, long before he blew it up, and possibly before the Justice quest starts. You have to have Karrass still alive to hear it, but even at the start of Act 3 if you speak to him he says they have sent off for permissiont to use the rite and the "robes will get what's coming to them"

Modifié par Tyrium, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:20 .

[beckaliz]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Running out of time?  All of what you were worried about happened when Ander's actually blew up that church.

there's no proof that meredith would have gotten the rite of annulment before Ander's action.  And there is no proof the divine was going to actually call for an Exalted March. 

Meredith had filed for the Rite, and the Divine had been seriously considering an Exalted March, enough to make Elthina scared of it. Because of the presence of the idol making Meredith crazy, I think it's very possible that she would have called for the Rite anyway if it had been rejected. She certainly would have had Karras's blessing on it. Not to mention that if the Divine was considering drastic action, she might say, Yeah, go ahead with the Rite. Let's see if that fixes the problem before we have to do this whole March thing.

[HTTP 404]

beckaliz wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Running out of time?  All of what you were worried about happened when Ander's actually blew up that church.

there's no proof that meredith would have gotten the rite of annulment before Ander's action.  And there is no proof the divine was going to actually call for an Exalted March. 

Meredith had filed for the Rite, and the Divine had been seriously considering an Exalted March, enough to make Elthina scared of it. Because of the presence of the idol making Meredith crazy, I think it's very possible that she would have called for the Rite anyway if it had been rejected. She certainly would have had Karras's blessing on it. Not to mention that if the Divine was considering drastic action, she might say, Yeah, go ahead with the Rite. Let's see if that fixes the problem before we have to do this whole March thing.

filing and considering isn't "doing".  Wouldn't it be far better for the mages cause if Meredith called for an unsanctioned Right of Annulment?

Modifié par HTTP 404, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:23 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

Guarantee the painful death and rape of every mage in Kirkwall? I guess Karass treated unfairly, having to sneak around and pick his victims. Good of Anders to help him kill all the robes he wants. 

[SkittlesKat96]

 Well assuming this isn't a troll thread:

What Anders did was wrong because Grand Cleric Elthina was a good person (even if a bit useless) and even though the Chantry has a lot of bad apples and causes a lot of trouble/bigotry that doesn't make what he did right (not to mention he didn't even do it because of hate for the Chantry, that wasn't his intention.)

Also we don't know for sure how right the Chantry is in their beliefs. I hate how atheists come storming onto the DA forums thinking that their beliefs also apply to Dragon Age...I mean come on lol.

Lastly I think Anders' choice was a really extreme case of 'the end justifies the means'.
Although I usually do agree with the 'end justifying the means' in a lot of cases (i.e, the crew were stranded on a boat, a boy was in a coma and 80% chance he was going to die, the crew eat him to save themselves in time to get to civilization) what Anders did was really extreme and Elthina was the last source of compromise.

Maybe he was saving the mages and templars from a slow even worse situation, maybe he was saving Kirkwall from exploding and being completey screwed over, either way it doesn't really change the fact that he did something kind of bad.

EDIT: Another problem is that Anders had no idea if compromise would happen.

I disagree completely with Anders distrust of the Circle and I reckon what he did was way more renagade than what a renagade Commander Shepard would do, he didn't even know the consequences of his actions but he just did stuff anyway

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:29 .

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

the people will want blood, and that blood will be mage blood.

I would love to see them try and get it.

Ditto. You know, I've been biting my tongue on saying this for a while, but to hell with it, I'm just going to throw it out there.

If the people of Thedas are as much a bloodthirsty, selfish bunch of bastards as people like HTTP are making them out to be, then they damn well deserve to be crushed under the horror of another Tevinter Imperium. If they won't stand for anything less than the brutal subjugation of mages, then I'll shed no tears when they're the ones brutally subjugated.

Josielyn wrote...

It is too bad that Meredith didn't go up in smoke with the building, and it would have been fun if a Tevinter-blood-mage-mind-controlled templar steps up to take her role and the "normal" mages end up saving the innocent civilians from the crazed blood-mage-mind-controlled templars-on-a-rampage.

Actually not a far cry from the end. Meredith was a thrall of the idol, which makes any blood mage look like a bag of kittens.

HTTP 404 wrote...

an eye for an eye, makes the world blind.  Don't mistake me disagreeing with Anders methods as being unsympathitic about the mages plight nor does it make me pro Chantry .  I think they deserve to be free but murder is not the answer: that is my argument here.  Anders became as bad as his oppresors when he blew up that church.

Except that you keep repeating the same thing over and over after it's been thoroughly explained why it's not going to work. Pacifism is great when it comes to avoiding barfights, but it's not the answer to stopping an evil empire. If Ghandi had his way, Hitler's blonde haired, blue eyed children would be ruling the world right now. Peaceful protest didn't save the world from that, violence beyond human comprehension did.

Plaintiff wrote...

You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

QFT. Q. F. T.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

What Anders did was wrong because Grand Cleric Elthina was a good person (even if a bit useless)

The only thing wrong with Elthina's death is that she wasn't physically, mentally, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many mages in her "care."

[beckaliz]

HTTP 404 wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Running out of time?  All of what you were worried about happened when Ander's actually blew up that church.

there's no proof that meredith would have gotten the rite of annulment before Ander's action.  And there is no proof the divine was going to actually call for an Exalted March. 

Meredith had filed for the Rite, and the Divine had been seriously considering an Exalted March, enough to make Elthina scared of it. Because of the presence of the idol making Meredith crazy, I think it's very possible that she would have called for the Rite anyway if it had been rejected. She certainly would have had Karras's blessing on it. Not to mention that if the Divine was considering drastic action, she might say, Yeah, go ahead with the Rite. Let's see if that fixes the problem before we have to do this whole March thing.

filing and considering isn't "doing".  Wouldn't it be far better for the mages cause if Meredith called for an unsanctioned Right of Annulment?

No it isn't "doing"--yet. The writing was very strongly on the wall, however. If you were the Divine, sitting there in your happy cathedral, and you were wondering if you needed to order an Exalted March--a Very Big Deal--on Kirkwall, and then you get a letter from Meredith saying "HI THAR CAN WE KILL ALL TEH MAEGES PLZ THER R BLUD MAGIKS AN DEMONS THX", would you honestly want to take the chance and wait?

This has nothing to do with the right/wrong part of the discussion--all I'm pointing out is that they really were running out of time before something happened. And that something wasn't going to be good for mages either way.

[beckaliz]

Rifneno wrote...

The only thing wrong with Elthina's death is that she wasn't physically, mentally, and sexually abused until she took her own life like so many mages in her "care."

I agree with your stance in general but I don't think writing things like this is going to help change people's minds. 

[Vit246]

Elthina is a good person who chooses to do nothing with the power and authority she has over Meredith and the Templars.

For the sanity of the Maker, Elthina appointed Meredith as Knight-Commander in the first place.

She can damn well expell Elthina from the templar order if she felt like it.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .