1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

Guarantee the painful death and rape of every mage in Kirkwall? I guess Karass treated unfairly, having to sneak around and pick his victims. Good of Anders to help him kill all the robes he wants. 

Anders didn't "guarantee" ****. Keras could easily be killed before he even gets to touch a mage, and the chance of freedom for all is worth any individual cost. Life in a gilded cage is no life at all. Mages will be raped and killed regardless, the best thing they can do for themselves is go down swinging, whether you think they want to or not. You cannot deny that the way mages are treated is inherently unjust. War is the only viable path for change. What any individual mage "wants" is largely irrelevent, it's what has to happen and frankly, if they aren't willing to make the hard choices, then they deserve what they get for their inaction.

[HTTP 404]

Rifneno wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

an eye for an eye, makes the world blind.  Don't mistake me disagreeing with Anders methods as being unsympathitic about the mages plight nor does it make me pro Chantry .  I think they deserve to be free but murder is not the answer: that is my argument here.  Anders became as bad as his oppresors when he blew up that church.

Except that you keep repeating the same thing over and over after it's been thoroughly explained why it's not going to work. Pacifism is great when it comes to avoiding barfights, but it's not the answer to stopping an evil empire. If Ghandi had his way, Hitler's blonde haired, blue eyed children would be ruling the world right now. Peaceful protest didn't save the world from that, violence beyond human comprehension did.

ok you win.  lets just murder peeps then.  who needs morality? who needs to do the right thing? lets murder away.  Why not just destroy the Chantry and oppress the people under mage rule.  Also I never knew Ghandi was in a barfight?

btw, thanks for the hitler scenario and painting a great "what if" scenario when at the end of the day is just a what if scenario.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:49 .

[HTTP 404]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

Guarantee the painful death and rape of every mage in Kirkwall? I guess Karass treated unfairly, having to sneak around and pick his victims. Good of Anders to help him kill all the robes he wants. 

Anders didn't "guarantee" ****. Keras could easily be killed before he even gets to touch a mage, and the chance of freedom for all is worth any individual cost. Life in a gilded cage is no life at all. Mages will be raped and killed regardless, the best thing they can do for themselves is go down swinging, whether you think they want to or not. You cannot deny that the way mages are treated is inherently unjust. War is the only viable path for change. What any individual mage "wants" is largely irrelevent, it's what has to happen and frankly, if they aren't willing to make the hard choices, then they deserve what they get for their inaction.

[CrimsonZephyr]

A what-if scenario that Ghandi explicitly encouraged the British to allow to happen, no less.

[Rifneno]

beckaliz wrote...

No it isn't "doing"--yet. The writing was very strongly on the wall, however. If you were the Divine, sitting there in your happy cathedral, and you were wondering if you needed to order an Exalted March--a Very Big Deal--on Kirkwall, and then you get a letter from Meredith saying "HI THAR CAN WE KILL ALL TEH MAEGES PLZ THER R BLUD MAGIKS AN DEMONS THX", would you honestly want to take the chance and wait?

Hahahahahahaha... thanks, this topic needed some lightning up. That was great.

beckaliz wrote...

I agree with your stance in general but I don't think writing things like this is going to help change people's minds. 

If there's one thing I've learned about the Internet, it's... well, it's that all elven women in MMO's are played by fat guys named Bubba, but if I learned two things the second is that no one ever changes their mind because you make a good counterargument. Okay, I suppose on very rare occasions with people who either make a point to actively question their own beliefs or just don't have an opinion on the matter yet, but as a general rule it's digging in your backyard hoping to find diamonds. The natural human reaction when their viewpoints are challenged is to defend them, not question them. So, I'll just be honest about the subject because what is there to lose? I have more contempt for Elthina than anyone else in DA2. Almost everyone else involved in large scale wrongdoing had some mitigating factor psychologically, whether it was a past trauma or demons in their head. So I stand by what I said. She should endure what real innocents had to endure because she was too self-righteous and stupid to do her job and reign in Meredith.

HTTP 404 wrote...

btw, thanks for the hitler scenario and painting a great "what if" scenario when at the end of the day is just a what if scenario.

Much like your own naive "what if" scenario where the mages let themselves be killed (or worse) en masse on the off chance that might change things. If you need me, I'll be over here in the real world where evil empires don't collapse because someone asked nicely. And, as CrimsonZephyr pointed out, it's exactly what he said to do.

[HTTP 404]

Rifneno wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

btw, thanks for the hitler scenario and painting a great "what if" scenario when at the end of the day is just a what if scenario.

Much like your own naive "what if" scenario where the mages let themselves be killed (or worse) en masse on the off chance that might change things. If you need me, I'll be over here in the real world where evil empires don't collapse because someone asked nicely. And, as CrimsonZephyr pointed out, it's exactly what he said to do.

haha, alright, if being a good person means being naive.  Then I'll be naive.  I've seen terrible things in my life and had a brother fight in a war.  far be it from me to feel that peace is something needed.

[Plaintiff]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
You can argue morality until the halla come home. Anders did what was needed.

Guarantee the painful death and rape of every mage in Kirkwall? I guess Karass treated unfairly, having to sneak around and pick his victims. Good of Anders to help him kill all the robes he wants. 

Anders didn't "guarantee" ****. Keras could easily be killed before he even gets to touch a mage, and the chance of freedom for all is worth any individual cost. Life in a gilded cage is no life at all. Mages will be raped and killed regardless, the best thing they can do for themselves is go down swinging, whether you think they want to or not. You cannot deny that the way mages are treated is inherently unjust. War is the only viable path for change. What any individual mage "wants" is largely irrelevent, it's what has to happen and frankly, if they aren't willing to make the hard choices, then they deserve what they get for their inaction.

Throwing off the shackles of a brutal and oppressive regime, for starters.

[beckaliz]

Rifneno wrote...

beckaliz wrote...

No it isn't "doing"--yet. The writing was very strongly on the wall, however. If you were the Divine, sitting there in your happy cathedral, and you were wondering if you needed to order an Exalted March--a Very Big Deal--on Kirkwall, and then you get a letter from Meredith saying "HI THAR CAN WE KILL ALL TEH MAEGES PLZ THER R BLUD MAGIKS AN DEMONS THX", would you honestly want to take the chance and wait?

Hahahahahahaha... thanks, this topic needed some lightning up. That was great.

I'm here all week. XD

If there's one thing I've learned about the Internet, it's... well, it's that all elven women in MMO's are played by fat guys named Bubba, but if I learned two things the second is that no one ever changes their mind because you make a good counterargument. Okay, I suppose on very rare occasions with people who either make a point to actively question their own beliefs or just don't have an opinion on the matter yet, but as a general rule it's digging in your backyard hoping to find diamonds. The natural human reaction when their viewpoints are challenged is to defend them, not question them. So, I'll just be honest about the subject because what is there to lose? I have more contempt for Elthina than anyone else in DA2. Almost everyone else involved in large scale wrongdoing had some mitigating factor psychologically, whether it was a past trauma or demons in their head. So I stand by what I said. She should endure what real innocents had to endure because she was too self-righteous and stupid to do her job and reign in Meredith.

Yeah she put Meredith there, and then didn't use her awsum powas of righteous goodness to make sure she didn't have free reign to be a horrible monster. The only character I actually hate in the game is Petrice, but Elthina just... D: she's kind of an effin ******.

Aside from that, any other comment I have is simply lamenting certain facets of internet culture. Sometiems I think I'm too moderate to be on the intertubez.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elthina was useless, but the bigger pile of fail was the Divine.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Perhaps Elthina didn't deserve to die, but how fatally stupid can one woman get? Her response to seeing Meredith abuse her power...is to pray to the Maker. Woman, the Maker can't strip Meredith of command. You can. With that kind of thinking, she was a headshot waiting to happen.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:28 .

[esper]

Not to mention that the Maker has abonded his children.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elthina was useless, but the bigger pile of fail was the Divine.

God this. 

What was the Divine thinking? 

[CrimsonZephyr]

Then she would pray harder, until the burning fire of her holy righteous reached the Maker.

[Sinaxi]

I wouldn't go so far to say that he did the "right" thing. Anders even knew that what he did was inherently wrong. Most arguments I see towards this say that the Grand Cleric never did anything wrong, there were innocents in the church, etc. Which is true, innocent people did die but the portrayal of Elthina being innocent was very odd considering the Chantry is basically what governs the Templars, and yet she doesn't want to get involved? There's absolutely nothing she can do? The knight-commander is supposed to answer to the Grand Cleric.

[GavrielKay]

I think Anders did a necessary thing, but perhaps should have lined up a few allies etc before doing so. War and violence should be last resorts, but the mages and Templars/Chantry already had 1000 years to try to implement system that is equitable and the Chantry isn't interested. When you have zero bargaining power against a strong and zealous oppressor, the choices are either give up or fight back. Talking only works with a foe who has any interest in listening.

Elthina was no innocent bystander and if she was smart, she'd have sent non-essential personnel away after being warned that an Exalted March might be coming. Of course she wasn't smart, but that's just more blame at her feet.

[HSHAW]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elthina was useless, but the bigger pile of fail was the Divine.

It has been a while since I played da2 so I've forgotten, what did the divine do that was so stupid?

[esper]

@HSHAW. Promote Elthina to Grand Cleric. Oh and I think a lot takes it personally that she wanted to call an exhalted march on Kirkwall.

[Rifneno]

HTTP 404 wrote...

haha, alright, if being a good person means being naive.  Then I'll be naive.  I've seen terrible things in my life and had a brother fight in a war.  far be it from me to feel that peace is something needed.

Your brother fought, so that means you have some great insight.  Yeah, that makes total sense.
You don't suggest peace, you suggest submission.  You're basically saying the mages should offer themselves up for a mass execution in hopes everyone will feel bad for them (or rather, the survivors).  And then what, they ask the Chantry all nicely to stop being fascist monsters and the Chantry says okay and everyone rides off into the sunset together?  Asinine.  You sit there and keep telling yourself that you're "good" because You Can't Handle The Truth™ that the reason you're free enough to sit there and judge all the bad bad men who take up arms is because good men exactly like them fought and died to prevent dictators like the Chantry from controlling us all.

beckaliz wrote...


Yeah she put Meredith there, and then didn't use her awsum powas of righteous goodness to make sure she didn't have free reign to be a horrible monster. The only character I actually hate in the game is Petrice, but Elthina just... D: she's kind of an effin ******.

Really? I only thought Petrice was an idiot in her methods. She's right that the qunari need to be... taken care of.

esper wrote...

Not to mention that the Maker has abonded his children.

AFK, calling DCFS.

[esper]

I sadly don't know what AFK calling DCFS means. But I meant that Elthina thinks that a Maker doesn't care for his children will step in? Uh... no, ain't happinging. And that is IF the Maker exits. And even if he did step in, it was still Elthinas wordly job to make sure Meridith didn't broke the law. Elthina failed big time in this job. I found new respect for mother petrice in my lates play through, all though she scared me at the end.

[Rifneno]

esper wrote...

I sadly don't know what AFK calling DCFS means. But I meant that Elthina thinks that a Maker doesn't care for his children will step in? Uh... no, ain't happinging. And that is IF the Maker exits. And even if he did step in, it was still Elthinas wordly job to make sure Meridith didn't broke the law. Elthina failed big time in this job. I found new respect for mother petrice in my lates play through, all though she scared me at the end.

It was just a joke.  "The maker has abandoned his children."  DCFS, short for the Department of Child and Family Services, is the government agency you report child abuse or neglect to (at least in America, I don't know what it's called elsewhere).

[Warheadz]

So it was a good idea to blow the church up to incite an all-out war? He didn't even remove the Chantry or the religion from existence which you claim to be a good thing, he blew up one church.

[Fallstar]

Anders blew up a chantry. The chantry seems to enjoy ordering an occasional mass genocide. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[esper]

@Riferno. I get it. (Not american). True to be told I think of the Maker as a teenage parent:
I don't like the my first children (the spirits) so I just abondon them, whatever....
Someone stepped into my house so I throw a temper tantrum and curses the world for I don't know how long.
I like pretty girl so I am going to help her even if she is already married and when he husband gets mad and betrays her I throw another temper tantrum and just walks away...

... Even if the Maker does exits is it really a good idea to redraw his attention to the world?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...


Really? I only thought Petrice was an idiot in her methods. She's right that the qunari need to be... taken care of.

How incompetent are Kirkwallers that they can't kill a compound containing a ship-full of Qunari wielding little more than throwing spears? I mean, they had no cannons, no armor, few weapons, and as of then, no Viddethari converts. It seems like they should have had as many guardsmen surround the compound as soon as possible. The only reason they got as far as they did was because they were taken by surprise.

But, back on topic, even though the blast killed many people in the Chantry itself, look at the blast radius. It literally hit only the Chantry. It didn't wipe out blocks of houses surrounding it. It was possibly one of the most surgical blasts ever. Anders had a target and he didn't do it to topple the Chantry immediately. He did it to force Meredith to commit an act the pro-mages would have considered unacceptable under any circumstance. It was her fault for taking his bait. Imagine the amount of respect she would have received if she didn't just say "kill 'em all" even though she had the authority to.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 11 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .