1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

Agamo45 wrote...

I'm sure Osama and his buddies also thought they were doing the right thing. Terrorists usually find some justification for their crimes.

Shut. Up.

You keep saying that. You have never had any idea about what you're talking about ever since you keep parroting the same BS about Anders and "terrorism". 

Modifié par Vit246, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Vit246 wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

I'm sure Osama and his buddies also thought they were doing the right thing. Terrorists usually find some justification for their crimes.

Shut. Up.

You keep saying that. You have never had any clue about what you're talking about ever since you keep parroting the same BS about Anders and "terrorism". 

Are you saying Anders actions weren't terrorism?  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:13 .

[beckaliz]

Osama wasn't exactly responding to the enslavement and brutality against his people. It was a "We hate you all and all of your heathen ideals JIHAD YOU LOUSY MUTHAS". The WTC stuff is SUCH a horrible comparison.

Terrorist acts are all about power and causing fear. Anders didn't want to gain power over anyone, or cause fear. I mean, he's all for equality for everybody. He wanted to set fire to the powder keg that was already there and start a war, because he believed that the only chance mages had to change their lot was to fight for all they were worth.

EDIT: He didn't even want to change anyone's fundamental beliefs or force them to live a certain way. He wanted mages to be treated with respect like everyone else.

Modifié par beckaliz, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Anders didn't "guarantee" ****. 

He certainly did. Regardless of what Hawke does, most mages in Kirkwall die. Some escape... but there's death and pillaging all about.

Keras could easily be killed before he even gets to touch a mage, and the chance of freedom for all is worth any individual cost. 

Or Karas could have killed some mages (like we see in the cutscene at the gallows) and kept a few of the young boys as prisoners to "make tranquil later".

Whatever fan-fiction you want to write doesn't change the facts. Anders wanted a genocide, apparently as much as you do. 

Life in a gilded cage is no life at all.

Getting stabbed to death is also no life, and that was Anders' goal for Kirkwall.

Mages will be raped and killed regardless, the best thing they can do for themselves is go down swinging, whether you think they want to or not.

Or they could actually try to improve their lot without going down river Mc****ingCrazy. The actual mage rebellion has a plan and its a movement, and given what Leliana says, may well have been inevitable. 

What Anders did isn't a plan or a movement - it's a planned slaughter of the mages in Kirkwall so that he can have the war he really, really wants.

You cannot deny that the way mages are treated is inherently unjust. 

You seem to be really good at denying that instigating genocide is unjust so maybe I'm just similar to you.

Obviously what happened to the mages is unjust. What's just as unjust (pun for the win!) is the genocide Anders decided to inflict on them as a final insult. 

War is the only viable path for change. What any individual mage "wants" is largely irrelevent, it's what has to happen and frankly, if they aren't willing to make the hard choices, then they deserve what they get for their inaction.

Case in point. You've got the pom-pomps out cheering as the templars gut every mage that didn't want to die for the cause. 

Modifié par In Exile, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:39 .

[In Exile]

beckaliz wrote...
 He didn't even want to change anyone's fundamental beliefs or force them to live a certain way. He wanted mages to be treated with respect like everyone else.

He wanted mages to either be free or dead, and he chose the "or dead" part of it for them in Kirkwall. His justification for the Chantry attack (and even scarier - the justification others offer for him) is also similar to the justification real-life terrorists use to justify attacks on civilian targets. 

[Ryzaki]

In my mind Anders wasn't a terrorist like Alrik wasn't a rapist. Sure by *some* definitions they don't fit but I can see most people argreeing that they deserve said labels. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:38 .

[Harid]

Pretty certain what Anders did is by definition terrorism.  I mean, I know one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but if you can't see both sides of the coin then then there's probably something wrong with you ideologically.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to come to terms with this, or at least understand why people hold this opinion.

My problem is why other mages world wide revolted.

I have trouble believing things would go that way, given the different political climates in each circle.

But that's Bioware storytelling™ for you.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:00 .

[Sinaxi]

The only thing I hate is when people argue that this all could have been handled peacefully, yes this could have been handled without the Chantry being blown up but there was absolutely no way the issues in Kirkwall were going to end without bloodshed and Mage oppression on a whole would not have changed by asking the Divine nicely..the baseline story of the Chant is that mages pretty much are the reason evil was brought into the world (the darkspawn) they consorted with the Old Gods, and turned the Maker against his creations. The Chantry will act polite (such as Elthina) but deep down the control of Mages all stems from their teachings and they do hate Mages. Not saying every single member of the Chantry or person that follows the Maker's teachings hate Mages (since many mages follow the Chant as well) but that is the real reason the Chantry wants such control over Mages since they don't trust them to handle their powers on their own.

Though many apostates who have never even stepped foot in the circle do much better than those that have, Morrigan certainly had an advantage being raised by someone as knowledgable as Flemeth but Malcolm Hawke did just fine concerning his two daughters. It is hard to really completely imagine it since we don't live in the world of Thedas nor deal with magic but life in the circle is no life at all. It is no wonder Mages are so untrustworthy, most of them have had no real dealings with normal people other than other mages and templars that want to walk them around like dogs on leashes. And society will always fear what it does not understand, so mages being kept a hidden secret in towers does nothing for changing opinions. Templars are always the heroes in the hunt for apostates.

[Wulfram]

I don't think supporting a just cause stops you from being a terrorist

Tidra wrote...

Oh and...Wulfram, you can even read the wikis the Grand Clerics are the ones who the Knight-Commanders report to. And yes, Elthina is the one who elevated her to that status.

Could you point me to your source(s) please?  I did have what I thought was a fairly thorough rummage through the Wiki.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

Pretty certain what Anders did is by definition terrorism.  I mean, I know one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but if you can't see both sides of the coin then then there's probably something wrong with you ideologically.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to come to terms with this, or at least why people hold this opinion.

My problem is why other mages world wide revolted.

I have trouble believing things would go that way, given the different political climates in each circle.

But that's Bioware storytelling™ for you.

Templars revolted too. Possibly either to help mages or hunt them. The thing is, it's very hard to get such quick support for a revolution, and even then, moderates will always step on the brakes just short of turning the land into a charnel house. The fact that all fourteen (?) of the Circles outside Tevinter broke away indicates the mages had some legitimate grievances against the Templars.

[AstoundingArcaneArcher]

Ahem... Let's just say it could of been handled better. I was disappointed that Hawke couldn't stop that... There were lots of things that Hawke could of easily stopped but that's a different topic.

[Vit246]

*sigh* Damn it. I opened up can of worms.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[Sinaxi]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Harid wrote...

Pretty certain what Anders did is by definition terrorism.  I mean, I know one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but if you can't see both sides of the coin then then there's probably something wrong with you ideologically.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to come to terms with this, or at least why people hold this opinion.

My problem is why other mages world wide revolted.

I have trouble believing things would go that way, given the different political climates in each circle.

But that's Bioware storytelling™ for you.

Templars revolted too. Possibly either to help mages or hunt them. The thing is, it's very hard to get such quick support for a revolution, and even then, moderates will always step on the brakes just short of turning the land into a charnel house. The fact that all fourteen (?) of the Circles outside Tevinter broke away indicates the mages had some legitimate grievances against the Templars.

I don't really think it's that much of a leap to have the mages revolt at least story wise, things were tense even in the Ferelden circle. And I think when Cassandra is questioning Varric it is 3 years later so the war had started and apparently only grew larger.

[In Exile]

Tidra wrote...

The only thing I hate is when people argue that this all could have been handled peacefully, yes this could have been handled without the Chantry being blown up but there was absolutely no way the issues in Kirkwall were going to end without bloodshed and Mage oppression on a whole would not have changed by asking the Divine nicely.

Absolutely. A revolt, in the end, would have been unavoidable without the Chantry making huge concessions. But the mages revolting in Kirkwall and Anders killing the Grand Cleric to push an insane Knight Commander into killing every single mage in Kirkwall are not the same thing.

.the baseline story of the Chant is that mages pretty much are the reason evil was brought into the world (the darkspawn) they consorted with the Old Gods, and turned the Maker against his creations. The Chantry will act polite (such as Elthina) but deep down the control of Mages all stems from their teachings and they do hate Mages. Not saying every single member of the Chantry or person that follows the Maker's teachings hate Mages (since many mages follow the Chant as well) but that is the real reason the Chantry wants such control over Mages since they don't trust them to handle their powers on their own.

If you make the conflict mages vs. the Chantry, then not only will the bloodshed be insane (because the mages political goal essentially is overthrowing the religion of Thedas) but the conflict becomes non-mages vs. mages, so you've essentially just turned Thedas into a huge ethnic conflict.

And society will always fear what it does not understand, so mages being kept a hidden secret in towers does nothing for changing opinions. Templars are always the heroes in the hunt for apostates.

In this case, people fear what they do understand. People who can literally shoot fire from their hands are scary. 

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Harid wrote...

Pretty certain what Anders did is by definition terrorism.  I mean, I know one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but if you can't see both sides of the coin then then there's probably something wrong with you ideologically.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to come to terms with this, or at least why people hold this opinion.

My problem is why other mages world wide revolted.

I have trouble believing things would go that way, given the different political climates in each circle.

But that's Bioware storytelling™ for you.

Templars revolted too. Possibly either to help mages or hunt them. The thing is, it's very hard to get such quick support for a revolution, and even then, moderates will always step on the brakes just short of turning the land into a charnel house. The fact that all fourteen (?) of the Circles outside Tevinter broke away indicates the mages had some legitimate grievances against the Templars.

It really doesn't.

I mean look at the Fereldan circle.  Look at the fact that the Libertarians, the mage group that wanted to split from the chantries are a minority (10%) of minorites. Other mages would largely tell them to shut the **** up.   Look at the fact that we have no proof that any circle besides Kirkwalls worked this way.  Think of the fact that there is little reason for a circle hundreds of miles away from another circle to revolt given the fact that mages have no network of helping each other.  Look at the fact that circles cannot communicate between each other independantly, without using common people to spread information, those common people who will likely sell them out to templars.

Which is why I pin it to Bioware Storytelling™.  This revolt is stuipid and would not reliably work, and would lead to the further enslavement and degradation of mages worldwide.  Which is why I am expecting some borderline deus ex machina writing from Bioware to make mages gain power from this without taking over the entire ****ing world and taking it.

It's like they tried to make a John Brown revolt for dummies, ignoring the other large issues that lead to the civil war.  I have no problem with a mage revolt intrinsically, but Bioware did not even try to set the stage for it globally for it to be plausible, instead it "just happened."  This is not something that should have been written for the second installment of a series.  It takes too much exposition for something like this to be plausible and work in two installments.

And to the above poster, mages aren't an ethnicity.  It would not be an ethnic conflict.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[DRTJR]

We've only seen Two circles and the COLLAGE OF MAGI was close to voting to break free of the Chantry in DA:A so maybe they were close to revolution already.

[Sinaxi]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think supporting a just cause stops you from being a terrorist

Tidra wrote...

Oh and...Wulfram, you can even read the wikis the Grand Clerics are the ones who the Knight-Commanders report to. And yes, Elthina is the one who elevated her to that status.

Could you point me to your source(s) please?  I did have what I thought was a fairly thorough rummage through the Wiki.

Well which wiki? I was talking about just the normal dragon age wikia http://dragonage.wik...Dragon_Age_Wiki though I suppose you could claim the info is wrong since it can be edited but you can look at the codex entries for Meredith in game (and they're on the wiki) and it says she removed the last Knight-Commander (he was corrupt or something) and Elthina tried him and imprisoned him and then Meredith was elevated to his status. And it goes on to say that she has the full support of the Grand Cleric lol

[Harid]

DRTJR wrote...

We've only seen Two circles and the COLLAGE OF MAGI was close to voting to break free of the Chantry in DA:A so maybe they were close to revolution already.

I don't beleive they were close, just that they were bringing up the Libertarian idea of it.  The ironic thing is that even Anders said it was stupid.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:29 .

[Sinaxi]

If you make the conflict mages vs. the Chantry, then not only will the
bloodshed be insane (because the mages political goal essentially is
overthrowing the religion of Thedas) but the conflict becomes non-mages
vs. mages, so you've essentially just turned Thedas into a huge ethnic
conflict.

I don't really see how you don't think this is a conflict between Mages and the Chantry, when the Templars are a militant group that are under direct order from the Chantry. The chantry even fuels their lyrium addiction. And now apparently the Chantry has ANOTHER group, the seekers, that work for them. Templars are an arm of the Chantry, its not about overthrowing the religion it's about overthrowing the ideal that all mages need to be imprisoned in a giant circle tower for the rest of their lives under command of the Chantry. If the Templar Order has gone off the reigns then the Chantry needs to do something about it, which is where the Seekers come in.

[Harid]

Tidra wrote...

If you make the conflict mages vs. the Chantry, then not only will the
bloodshed be insane (because the mages political goal essentially is
overthrowing the religion of Thedas) but the conflict becomes non-mages
vs. mages, so you've essentially just turned Thedas into a huge ethnic
conflict.

I don't really see how you don't think this is a conflict between Mages and the Chantry, when the Templars are a militant group that are under direct order from the Chantry. The chantry even fuels their lyrium addiction. And now apparently the Chantry has ANOTHER group, the seekers, that work for them. Templars are an arm of the Chantry, its not about overthrowing the religion it's about overthrowing the ideal that all mages need to be imprisoned in a giant circle tower for the rest of their lives under command of the Chantry. If the Templar Order has gone off the reigns then the Chantry needs to do something about it, which is where the Seekers come in.

I think what he's saying is that if you make the conflict mages versus chantry, you make it increasingly implausible for mages to 'win.'

People who are indoctrinated by 900 years of Chantry existance are not going to fight on behalf of the mages.

But I don't want to talk for the guy.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:32 .

[Sinaxi]

Well I understand that, the Chantry is an extremely powerful force. But I think from the sound of the epilogue most mages are simply going after their Templar "keepers", not going around blowing up the local Chantry like Anders lol but in the big picture the Chantry is involved in this war and from the epilogue it sounds like the seekers wish to resolve things peacefully and don't trust the Templars to do this job.

[Harid]

Tidra wrote...

Well I understand that, the Chantry is an extremely powerful force. But I think from the sound of the epilogue most mages are simply going after their Templar "keepers", not going around blowing up the local Chantry like Anders lol but in the big picture the Chantry is involved in this war and from the epilogue it sounds like the seekers wish to resolve things peacefully and don't trust the Templars to do this job.

I have trouble believing based on the mages we've run into in Dragon Age Origins and in Two, that a large enough contingent of mages aren't going to rape and pillage.

Regular people will be collateral damage in this war, it started on that premise, it's impossible for war to avoid this.  And because of this, the people who believe in the Chantry, the majority of Thedas, are going to aid in cutting down mages enmasse, with or without chantry help.

If Bioware was smart, they would have made a regular non mage free mages group, they would have made a region that let in mages to do whatever they please that aren't a walking evil caricature of mages (The Tevinter Imperium) but also had a large enough standing army to aid in the fight, they would have shown the Libertarian movement in DA:2, they would have removed the Champion subplot, and the Qunari skirmish in Chapter 2, and just stuck in a Qunari companion if they wanted huge Qun exposition,  well. . .they would have done a lot of things.  They did none of this.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:47 .

[Rifneno]

Don't have the time at the moment to make the lengthy multi-reply I want, but I have to quickly get out...

Wulfram wrote...

But could we at least try to avoid the naive belief that the Chantry can simply order about the de facto ruler of an independent state without contradiction or consequence?

Mage origin boon says hi.

[Sinaxi]

Ah, well. Nothing's ever perfect now is it.