1411 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Harid wrote...

River5 wrote...

Except "race" isn't simply biological characteristics.  You are forgetting about the social definition of the term.

Race can also mean "nation".  Mages are a nation.  A people.  And you can belong to more than one single group.

Mages have their own culture, their own way of living, thinking, and doing things.  They have a social culture, past, and history of their own.

Therefore, they qualify as people, and as a race.

Mages aren't a nation.  If they were, someone like Morrigan would not want you to cleanse the Circle because she would be cleansing her own people.  Mages are their own people and many mages have shown no kinship with mages, in the Tevinter imperium, Mages enslave other mages.  Mages do not have their own culture either.  Mages do not follow the same religion.  Riviani culture is different from Fereldan culture is different from Anderfels culture is different from, you get the point.  In every region mages share the same culture as the regular people in that area.  Hawke has a different past than the Warden (if the Warden was a mage), and being mages do not define mages and mages have different rights in different areas which would forge their paths more than being a mage is.

They aren't a race.

Discrimination isn't limited to ethnic groups or races. Social strata (which mages are), economic groups, political groups, national groups, academic groups, etc. But, yeah, racism isn't the most accurate term, just a convenient and easily understood one. It is undue discrimination, though. The dangers of magic aside, the Templars do grossly abuse their power, which is pretty much unchecked.

A huge problem with the Circle is that it forces most mages to see themselves as mages first, thereby isolating themselves. A Fereldan mage probably has nothing in common with a Tevinter magister, save magic. Their worldviews, their morals, their political beliefs are entirely different. Case in point: Wynne vs Danarius.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[FieryDove]

In Exile wrote...

Templars aren't station as guards in the Chantry. 

They were this time. Everyone knew war of some kind was going to break out, and I would imagine the flock was kicked out and mainly the GC and the templars shown surrounding her was about all that was there.

Oh and Seb if his quests are never completed. (I hope)

Plus it seems that the sisters/mother's have templar BG's.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a legitimate case to be made that Circle Mages are a distinct people, due to their seclusion from the rest of the world.

A culture, sure.  But that culture would vary for every different circle.

And then certain mages are allow to come and go as they please, so. . .

But a race seems to be stretching it to me.

[In Exile]

OldMan91 wrote...
I always get goosebumps when I read this bit. It's so rich in content, says so much with so little. The end goal of what happened in Kirkwall should serve Progress. If that end is achieved, I would say that it is justified. Or as Anders puts it in a more romantic way, assuming he's your LI: "We will fight for a world where our children can be born mages... and free. Ten years... a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you and there will be no templars to tear them apart."

The French revolution did not end that well, though. The purging of the ranks progressed toward something more and more horrible, and in the end France ended ruled by Napoleon. That was a dramatic change in Europe and in a very meaningful sense progress... but it was not the kind of progress that revolution itself envisioned. Still, it was worth revolting.

We're not debating the morality of the revolt - I fully support a mage uprising, even in the hopelessly idealistic "better free than dead," sense. But there's a difference between making that choice and having that choice made for you, and there's a difference between organizing as a group and electing to strike against the Chantry and having someone make that strike in the hope that enough of you die to galvanize the rest. 

[In Exile]

FieryDove wrote...
They were this time. Everyone knew war of some kind was going to break out, and I would imagine the flock was kicked out and mainly the GC and the templars shown surrounding her was about all that was there.

Or the flock huddled in the Grand Cathedral, scared and terrified of what might end up happening. 

[Harid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Harid wrote...

River5 wrote...

Except "race" isn't simply biological characteristics.  You are forgetting about the social definition of the term.

Race can also mean "nation".  Mages are a nation.  A people.  And you can belong to more than one single group.

Mages have their own culture, their own way of living, thinking, and doing things.  They have a social culture, past, and history of their own.

Therefore, they qualify as people, and as a race.

Mages aren't a nation.  If they were, someone like Morrigan would not want you to cleanse the Circle because she would be cleansing her own people.  Mages are their own people and many mages have shown no kinship with mages, in the Tevinter imperium, Mages enslave other mages.  Mages do not have their own culture either.  Mages do not follow the same religion.  Riviani culture is different from Fereldan culture is different from Anderfels culture is different from, you get the point.  In every region mages share the same culture as the regular people in that area.  Hawke has a different past than the Warden (if the Warden was a mage), and being mages do not define mages and mages have different rights in different areas which would forge their paths more than being a mage is.

They aren't a race.

Discrimination isn't limited to ethnic groups or races. Social strata (which mages are), economic groups, political groups, national groups, academic groups, etc. But, yeah, racism isn't the most accurate term, just a convenient and easily understood one. It is undue discrimination, though. The dangers of magic aside, the Templars do grossly abuse their power, which is pretty much unchecked.

A huge problem with the Circle is that it forces most mages to see themselves as mages first, thereby isolating themselves. A Fereldan mage probably has nothing in common with a Tevinter magister, save magic. Their worldviews, their morals, their political beliefs are entirely different. Case in point: Wynne vs Danarius.

I never stated mages could not be discriminated against.

I claimed calling someone a racist for hating mages is like calling someone a racist for hating fat people.  It's ludicrous.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
A culture, sure.  But that culture would vary for every different circle.

And then certain mages are allow to come and go as they please, so. . .

But a race seems to be stretching it to me.

But the difference between a culture and a people gets very muddled sometimes. I think that you could argue that the Circles (as a whole, even with their unique characters) are sufficiently different from the rest of Thedas to be a distinct society. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a legitimate case to be made that Circle Mages are a distinct people, due to their seclusion from the rest of the world.

A culture, sure.  But that culture would vary for every different circle.

And then certain mages are allow to come and go as they please, so. . .

But a race seems to be stretching it to me.

I don't think each individual Circle would be that different from the other (in White Chantry lands). There was little that was Ferelden about the Circle in Calenhad. They probably read the same books, live in similar environments, supervised by the same institution, with the same political and economic structure. And they have similar political views with the same fraternities and apparently they meet at conferences.

So I think that's enough to call them a people and a distinct society. The mass revolution is probably going to accentuate that feeling, for better or for worse.

As for being a race. I agree it's too early to know for sure. It could be that mages are a new species in the making. Or they could be an abnormality that won't become anything beyond that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:52 .

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
A culture, sure.  But that culture would vary for every different circle.

And then certain mages are allow to come and go as they please, so. . .

But a race seems to be stretching it to me.

But the difference between a culture and a people gets very muddled sometimes. I think that you could argue that the Circles (as a whole, even with their unique characters) are sufficiently different from the rest of Thedas to be a distinct society. 

Really isn't to me.  I would not consider, for example priests and nuns to be their own race irrespective of their actual ethnic group.  And they are sufficiently different from the rest of this earth in terms of life lived and things they can do.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think there is a legitimate case to be made that Circle Mages are a distinct people, due to their seclusion from the rest of the world.

A culture, sure.  But that culture would vary for every different circle.

And then certain mages are allow to come and go as they please, so. . .

But a race seems to be stretching it to me.

I don't think each individual Circle would be that different from the other (in White Chantry lands). There was little that was Ferelden about the Circle in Calenhad. They probably read the same books, live in similar environments, supervised by the same institution, with the same political and economic structure. And they have similar political views with the same fraternities and apparently they meet at conferences.

So I think that's enough to call them a people and a distinct society. The mass revolution is probably going to accentuate that feeling, for better or for worse.

As for being a race. I agree it's too early to know for sure. It could be that mages are a new species in the making. Or they could be an abnormality that won't become anything beyond that.

We've already seen two (Kinlock Hold and the Gallows) that are drastically different from each other.  I have no reason to believe that all circles are exactly the same, especially when different cultures treat mages differently, weighted with the competancies of the different leaders of each circle.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:59 .

[FieryDove]

In Exile wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
They were this time. Everyone knew war of some kind was going to break out, and I would imagine the flock was kicked out and mainly the GC and the templars shown surrounding her was about all that was there.

Or the flock huddled in the Grand Cathedral, scared and terrified of what might end up happening. 

All we can know is what we are told *or* shown. So...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

We've already seen two (Kinlock Hold and the Gallows) that are drastically different from each other.  I have no reason to believe that all circles are exactly the same, especially when different cultures treat mages differently.

How is the Gallows different from the Circle in Calenhad, other than Meredith's idiocy?

I am talking about Circle mages here. Cultures don't treat them differently, because only the Chantry controls them.

They don't have to be exactly the same for them to be a distinct people. They have a lot more in common than they have differences.



The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the
capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars
and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and
outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society,
the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:04 .

[River5]

Harid wrote...

Mages aren't a nation.  If they were, someone like Morrigan would not want you to cleanse the Circle because she would be cleansing her own people.  Mages are their own people and many mages have shown no kinship with mages, in the Tevinter imperium, Mages enslave other mages.  Mages do not have their own culture either.  Mages do not follow the same religion.  Riviani culture is different from Fereldan culture is different from Anderfels culture is different from, you get the point.  In every region mages share the same culture as the regular people in that area.  Hawke has a different past than the Warden (if the Warden was a mage), and being mages do not define mages and mages have different rights in different areas which would forge their paths more than being a mage is.

They aren't a race.

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religions, and historical experience.

In Thedas, there are, I believe, 11 Circle of Magi, and 1 in Tevinter.

While they all remain tied to the Orlesian Chantry (except for the one in Thedas), they all share a common hierarchy...  With the Grand Enchanter (elected by a council of representatives from all the Circles) being their direct representative to the Chantry, and advisor to the Divine.

All 11 Circles have a First Enchanter, Senior Enchanters, Enchanters, Mages, and so forth.

They all share a common history about how the Circles of Magi came to be, and how magic used to be regulated before that.  Even if the Tevinter Circle chose to split from all the others, they once were part of the same organization.

They have their own internal affairs, with mages being also divided in distinct fraternities (kind of like their own political parties).

All of them are Andrastians by definition, since they are made to follow the Chantry's teachings.

They share a common language through magic, and its teachings.

They have their own heraldry...

What else?

Circle mages fit into the definition of what a nation is.  They are a race of people.  That some mages have chosen to live outside the Circles, or refuse to identify with Circle mages doesn't change that.

And even if they acquire their freedom; as long as they still maintain that sense of community and unity between them (come up with some replacement for the Circles still allowing them to teach apprentices, and share a common culture, social hierarchy as mages), they will remain a nation.  If not, they will simply be assimilated by other nations around them.

Modifié par River5, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:09 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...

We've already seen two (Kinlock Hold and the Gallows) that are drastically different from each other.  I have no reason to believe that all circles are exactly the same, especially when different cultures treat mages differently.

How is the Gallows different from the Circle in Calenhad, other than Meredith's idiocy?

I am talking about Circle mages here. Cultures don't treat them differently, because only the Chantry controls them.

They don't have to be exactly the same for them to be a distinct people. They have a lot more in common than they have differences.



The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the
capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars
and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and
outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society,
the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

Mages weren't getting raped in Fereldan for one.
Mages are allowed out of the circle in Fereldan for two.
Gregoir and Irving have a better relationship than Orsino and Meredith which allow mages to have more concessions from the chantry.
Mages aren't tranquilled as easy as they are in Kirkwall.

Things like that.  They aren't truly in exile because they recieve mages from the general populus of the region they are in, and those mages will fit the mold of the place they came from.  Those cultures they grew in will influence the circle they are in, and I have trouble believing otherwise.  That culture is the culture I mean that will keep the circles from having anything remotely close to the same culture.  These are not self sustaining societies.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
Mages weren't getting raped in Fereldan for one.
Mages are allowed out of the circle in Fereldan for two.
Gregoir and Irving have a better relationship than Orsino and Meredith which allow mages to have more concessions from the chantry.
Mages aren't tranquilled as easy as they are in Kirkwall.

Things like that.  They aren't truly in exile because they recieve mages from the general populus of the region they are in, and those mages will fit the mold of the place they came from.  Those cultures they grew in will influence the circle they are in, and I have trouble believing otherwise.  That culture is the culture I mean that will keep the circles from having anything remotely close to the same culture.  These are not self sustaining societies.

And that's Meredith being an idiot. This is not a difference in culture, or political / economic structure, or beliefs, especially since it's a question of a few years and is not a difference put in place since centuries.
And mages are not allowed out of the Circle wihout special permission in Ferelden.

I saw nothing Ferelden about the mages of Calenhad (and Fereldens didn't seem to think of them as compatriots). They are secluded as children, of course they are going to be much more influenced in the environment they are raised in (the Circle), than the environments they came from as children.

Circle mages do not identify themselves primarily as anything other than Circle mages, and they are all connected via Fraternities, that are not limited to individual Circles, but are rather a Circle common network of similar beliefs, perspectives and interests.

[Harid]

River5 wrote...

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religions, and historical experience.

In Thedas, there are, I believe, 11 Circle of Magi, and 1 in Tevinter.

While they all remain tied to the Orlesian Chantry (except for the one in Thedas), they all share a common hierarchy...  With the Grand Enchanter (elected by a council of representatives from all the Circles) being their direct representative to the Chantry, and advisor to the Divine.

All 11 Circles have a First Enchanter, Senior Enchanters, Enchanters, Mages, and so forth.

They all share a common history about how the Circles of Magi came to be, and how magic used to be regulated before that.  Even if the Tevinter Circle chose to split from all the others, they once were part of the same organization.

They have their own internal affairs, with mages being also divided in distinct fraternities (kind of like their own political parties).

All of them are Andrastians by definition, since they are made to follow the Chantry's teachings.

They share a common language through magic, and its teachings.

They have their own heraldry...

What else?

Circle mages fit into the definition of what a nation is.  They are a race of people.  That some mages have chosen to live outside the Circles, or refuse to identify with Circle mages doesn't change that.

And even if they acquire their freedom; as long as they still maintain that sense of community and unity between them (come up with some replacement for the Circles still allowing them to teach apprentices, and share a common culture, social hierarchy as mages), they will remain a nation.  If not, they will simply be assimilated by other nations around them.

There are catholic churches world wide.  They all follow the same heirachy through Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops, Orders and abbots.

The Catholic Church are all tied to the pope.

All of them are catholic by definition.

They share a common language  through latin and the bible.

They even have their own heraldry!

What else?

Catholics fit the definition of a race of people.  They are a race of people.  That some Catholics choose not to go to church or refuse to identify as catholics (once they have been baptized) doesn't change that.

Since this is going to just end up in circles, i.e. They are are race!  No they aren't!  We will have to agree to disagree.

But mages are as much as a race as members of the bloody Chantry, as the chantry has the same organization, the same heirarchy, they have a heraldry, and they don't live like regular people do.  They are not a race.

I wholeheartedly expect the fact that Catholicism is by choice to be used by a detractor, but the Chantry is not for mage children, but you would not make this same argument for chantry members because it would expose your agenda.

Mages aren't a people, mages aren't a race, they are just people, and just members of whatever race they are made up of.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[River5]

Harid wrote...

Mages weren't getting raped in Fereldan for one.
Mages are allowed out of the circle in Fereldan for two.
Gregoir and Irving have a better relationship than Orsino and Meredith which allow mages to have more concessions from the chantry.
Mages aren't tranquilled as easy as they are in Kirkwall.

Things like that.  They aren't truly in exile because they recieve mages from the general populus of the region they are in, and those mages will fit the mold of the place they came from.  Those cultures they grew in will influence the circle they are in, and I have trouble believing otherwise.  That culture is the culture I mean that will keep the circles from having anything remotely close to the same culture.  These are not self sustaining societies.

I don't get your point at all.  How does being self-sustaining come into the prerequisite of what a nation is.

Heck, most of the aboriginal people in Canada are no longer self-sustaining societies.  It doesn't stop them from being a nation of their own.

And since when "sharing the exact same level of common abuses" becomes a must for being considered a nation?

[Sinaxi]

Why am I even having this argument with you.  Even if I hated all mages, which I don't, mages aren't a race, and by definition, I can't be racist against a ficticious people with a genetic abnormality.

All I have to say is...genetic abnormality? WTF? As if being a mage would not be ridiculously awesome and clearly normal humans are just jealous. And also even though magic is not real that is just...rude...genetic abnormality..pfft...if anything it is genetic PROGRESS

P.S. I think Anders is just super pissed off about his cat

Modifié par Tidra, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
Mages weren't getting raped in Fereldan for one.
Mages are allowed out of the circle in Fereldan for two.
Gregoir and Irving have a better relationship than Orsino and Meredith which allow mages to have more concessions from the chantry.
Mages aren't tranquilled as easy as they are in Kirkwall.

Things like that.  They aren't truly in exile because they recieve mages from the general populus of the region they are in, and those mages will fit the mold of the place they came from.  Those cultures they grew in will influence the circle they are in, and I have trouble believing otherwise.  That culture is the culture I mean that will keep the circles from having anything remotely close to the same culture.  These are not self sustaining societies.

And that's Meredith being an idiot. This is not a difference in culture, or political / economic structure, or beliefs, especially since it's a question of a few years and is not a difference put in place since centuries.
And mages are not allowed out of the Circle wihout special permission in Ferelden.

I saw nothing Ferelden about the mages of Calenhad (and Fereldens didn't seem to think of them as compatriots). They are secluded as children, of course they are going to be much more influenced in the environment they are raised in (the Circle), than the environments they came from as children.

Circle mages do not identify themselves primarily as anything other than Circle mages, and they are all connected via Fraternities, that are not limited to individual Circles, but are rather a Circle common network of similar beliefs, perspectives and interests.

But Meredith being an idiot is a point that doesn't matter.  We don't know how soft a touch or how heavy a hand each individual circle's leadership is under due to the fact that we've only seen two circles.  And each circle that has a Meredith like leader is going to end up a completely different place that circles that comparitively have a Gregior or someone even more lenient than him.  And as far as I can remember, Wynne needed no special permission to come and go as she pleased.  She asked for nothing to take Shale to The Tevinter Imperium as far as I remember, but perhaps you recall her stating she would need permission to do so.

Fereldans seemed to have no problem thinging of mages as compatriots in the times of war we saw them under.  I don't recall seeing any mage haters in Ostagar.  Heck, I vaguely remember a mage stating they are Fereldan, that's why they want to aid against the Blight.  Though It might have been the Warden.  I only played a mage once, sorry.

I also don't know about that Fraternity thing or the amount of mages in those fraternities.  Could you even join one in Origins?  How are they joined?  These are questions we don't know the answer to, and as such we cannot say the effect those fraterities may have on circle mages.

[Harid]

River5 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Mages weren't getting raped in Fereldan for one.
Mages are allowed out of the circle in Fereldan for two.
Gregoir and Irving have a better relationship than Orsino and Meredith which allow mages to have more concessions from the chantry.
Mages aren't tranquilled as easy as they are in Kirkwall.

Things like that.  They aren't truly in exile because they recieve mages from the general populus of the region they are in, and those mages will fit the mold of the place they came from.  Those cultures they grew in will influence the circle they are in, and I have trouble believing otherwise.  That culture is the culture I mean that will keep the circles from having anything remotely close to the same culture.  These are not self sustaining societies.

I don't get your point at all.  How does being self-sustaining come into the prerequisite of what a nation is.

Heck, most of the aboriginal people in Canada are no longer self-sustaining societies.  It doesn't stop them from being a nation of their own.

And since when "sharing the exact same level of common abuses" becomes a must for being considered a nation?

Because they would not have a unique culture due to exile.  People would bring in whatever culture that they had when they thought they were normal, before they were shipped off the to Circle.  I recall the teens generally being the time most mages enter the Circle.  That is a pretty long time to have your indigenous culture stick with you.

Reservations are really not considered nations so I am not certain what you are talking about here.  Reservations are actually used by an actual race of people too, so, bad example.

And the point I was making with the final point in that mage fraternity (percentage of each) and attitudes and skill will differ in places where they are held down relative to places where they are more free compartively speaking.

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:41 .

[River5]

Harid wrote...

I also don't know about that Fraternity thing or the amount of mages in those fraternities.  Could you even join one in Origins?  How are they joined?  These are questions we don't know the answer to, and as such we cannot say the effect those fraterities may have on circle mages.

Yes, if you talk to Niall in the mage origin story, he will tell you that he is an isolationist, and describe the fraternities for you.  If not, you should find a codex entry about it when you travel in the Fade.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
But Meredith being an idiot is a point that doesn't matter.  We don't know how soft a touch or how heavy a hand each individual circle's leadership is under due to the fact that we've only seen two circles.

And that's not relevent to the Circle being a distinct society or not. They are all under a similar system. Whether they get a hard KC for a few decades or a soft one, does not change the overall system and the fact that they are secluded.

And Wynne needed permission from Irving.

Fereldans seemed to have no problem thinging of mages as compatriots in the times of war we saw them under.  I don't recall seeing any mage haters in Ostagar.  Heck, I vaguely remember a mage stating they are Fereldan, that's why they want to aid against the Blight.  Though It might have been the Warden.  I only played a mage once, sorry.

You have gossipers saying that mages should all be wiped out. I remember the Warden being able to say that, but I do not recall any mage saying it.

I also don't know about that Fraternity thing or the amount of mages in those fraternities.  Could you even join one in Origins?  How are they joined?  These are questions we don't know the answer to, and as such we cannot say the effect those fraterities may have on circle mages.

We know that fraternities transcend individual Circles, which shows that mages think in terms of Circle mages as a whole and not individual towers. In the College of Magi in Cumberlandd, it's the fraternities that are represented and not as individual tower. That shows that mages band up to voice similar political / economic concerns

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[Harid]

River5 wrote...

Harid wrote...

I also don't know about that Fraternity thing or the amount of mages in those fraternities.  Could you even join one in Origins?  How are they joined?  These are questions we don't know the answer to, and as such we cannot say the effect those fraterities may have on circle mages.

Yes, if you talk to Niall in the mage origin story, he will tell you that he is an isolationist, and describe the fraternities for you.  If not, you should find a codex entry about it when you travel in the Fade.

I didn't say I didn't know about fraterities, I stated we don't know the amount of mages in each fraternity.  We just know the Aequitarians are the majority and the Resolutionists are the minority.  We do not know if all mages must be in a fraternity, we don't know how mages join one, we just know they exist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
I didn't say I didn't know about fraterities, I stated we don't know the amount of mages in each fraternity.  We just know the Aequitarians are the majority and the Resolutionists are the minority.  We do not know if all mages must be in a fraternity, we don't know how mages join one, we just know they exist.

We know that they represent mage views and interests, and we knwo that they transcend individual Circles and when al mages meet in the College of Magi, it's the Fraternities that dominate the discussion.

That is enough to show that not only do mages share similar political views and beliefs, but that their allegience is to Fraternities that transcend individual Circles.

And Niall showed that young mages can be affilitated to Fraternities.

EDIT: and I don't see much point in the discussion, so I am going to retire, too tired for this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
But Meredith being an idiot is a point that doesn't matter.  We don't know how soft a touch or how heavy a hand each individual circle's leadership is under due to the fact that we've only seen two circles.

And that's not relevent to the Circle being a distinct society or not. They are all under a similar system. Whether they get a hard KC for a few decades or a soft one, does not change the overall system and the fact that they are secluded.

And Wynne needed permission from Irving.

Fereldans seemed to have no problem thinging of mages as compatriots in the times of war we saw them under.  I don't recall seeing any mage haters in Ostagar.  Heck, I vaguely remember a mage stating they are Fereldan, that's why they want to aid against the Blight.  Though It might have been the Warden.  I only played a mage once, sorry.

You have gossipers saying that mages should all be wiped out. I remember the Warden being able to say that, but I do not recall any mage saying it.

I also don't know about that Fraternity thing or the amount of mages in those fraternities.  Could you even join one in Origins?  How are they joined?  These are questions we don't know the answer to, and as such we cannot say the effect those fraterities may have on circle mages.

We know that fraternities transcend individual Circles, which shows that mages think in terms of Circle mages as a whole and not individual towers. In the College of Magi in Cumberlandd, it's the fraternities that are represented and not as individual tower. That shows that mages band up to voice similar political / economic concerns

To your first point, so is the Chantry.  Being a distinct society (sure why not) doesn't mean they are a distinct race.  And I don't recall her needing permission from Irving to go to Minrathous.  I can't find it on youtube.  Even as such it doesn't really matter.

And your last point is true, despite it wasn't a point that I argued, but it doesn't say anything about the mages being a race.  A society, sure, I never stated they aren't, but having a distinct society alone doesn't make you a race.  The chantry has a distinct society.  So do the Nevarrans or the Fereldans. . .they are still not different races, just different cultures.  They only races that matter in the circle are Human and Elven.