1411 réponses à ce sujet

[jklinders]

Catt128 wrote...

I hear you talking about killing civilians and terrorism... what do you call when someone locks a bunch of people up in a tower until the day they die? what about templars making a lot of mages tranquil just for the sake of it? isn't that worse than death? isn't that a crime against human rights?

I see you pointing fingers at Anders cause he blew up the chantry, but the templars aren't any better.

Perhaps you people forget how revolutionary processes work. Life is unfair and people die. Deal with it.

Now you may call me a monster.

Nah, instead I'll just point out that like Anders you are focusing on the wrong target. Templar barracks=legitimate target. Church full of citizens and the one moderate in the whole debate=crime against humanity.

The templars being jerks does nothing to nullify the misplaced violence that Anders indulged in. That makes him an abomination....abominations are also the reason why the templars and chantry exist. It's not just demons that drive good people to do disgusting things and Anders actions do more to drive home the need for templars than all the preaching of the world combined.

The Templars were wrong, The Chantry just stood by and watched, the viscount was too impotent to do anything and the mages went nuts. I see no one wearing the cloak of purity here.

[Invalidcode]

During the blow up cut-scene, I was like 'DUDE, AWESOME'!

After that I was like, 'Right of annulment is coming for sure...'. And I was right.

[errant_knight]

Even if one thinks it was justified--which I don't--an explosion that size would have taken out a large area, killing anyone living or working near the Chantry. That put Anders in the same camp as Meredith, both willing to do things they know are wrong to achieve their goals regardless of the cost to the innocent. With that one act, Anders moved from freedom fighter to terrorist.

[lost lupus]

even anders didnt believe it the "right" thing to do

as he said their can be no compremise

he blew it up because he wanted the war he wanted an uprising so he took away any chance of peace now every mage will be hunted they HAVE to fight back or be wiped

i dont understand how people can missinterpert this anders is even cool with you killing him for it he knows he did a horrible thing

he wasnt striking a blow for the mages or trying to wake people up to an injustice he was removing choice from all parties he wanted a battle and this was the way to ensure it would happen no Quater

to him peace is just cake he didnt believe mages can be free without fighting for it
so he forced all mages into a position where they would have to fight

Modifié par lost lupus, 15 mars 2011 - 05:59 .

[WhiteKnyght]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

The Grand Cleric was close to siding with the Mages over the Templars. Anders made things worse by killing her.

[Statulos]

Catt128 wrote...

I hear you talking about killing civilians and terrorism... what do you call when someone locks a bunch of people up in a tower until the day they die? what about templars making a lot of mages tranquil just for the sake of it? isn't that worse than death? isn't that a crime against human rights?

I see you pointing fingers at Anders cause he blew up the chantry, but the templars aren't any better.

Perhaps you people forget how revolutionary processes work. Life is unfair and people die. Deal with it.

Now you may call me a monster.

Revolutions start because people join them. Killing the potential subjects to join and support it is a bad idea. Simple as that. Anders is demonstrating exactly what people fear from mages: them turning everything into Tevinter.

lost lupus wrote...

even anders didnt believe it the "right" thing to do

as he said their can be no compremise

he
blew it up because he wanted the war he wanted an uprising so he took
away any chance of peace now every mage will be hunted they HAVE to
fight back or be wiped

i dont understand how people can
missinterpert this anders is even cool with you killing him for it he
knows he did a horrible thing

he wasnt striking a blow for the
mages or trying to wake people up to an injustice he was removing choice
from all parties he wanted a battle and this was the way to ensure it
would happen no Quater

to him peace is just cake he didnt believe mages can be free without fighting for it
so he forced all mages into a position where they would have to fight

Mages are outnumbered and by attacking the very people that could actually help them, he´s losing the war after it even started.

Modifié par Statulos, 15 mars 2011 - 06:22 .

[heretica]

Statulos wrote...

Catt128 wrote...

I hear you talking about killing civilians and terrorism... what do you call when someone locks a bunch of people up in a tower until the day they die? what about templars making a lot of mages tranquil just for the sake of it? isn't that worse than death? isn't that a crime against human rights?

I see you pointing fingers at Anders cause he blew up the chantry, but the templars aren't any better.

Perhaps you people forget how revolutionary processes work. Life is unfair and people die. Deal with it.

Now you may call me a monster.

Revolutions start because people join them. Killing the potential subjects to join and support it is a bad idea. Simple as that. Anders is demonstrating exactly what people fear from mages: them turning everything into Tevinter.

He is not turning into Tevinter at all. Tevinter mages use blood magic to subdue and control. He is against blood magic.

Revolutions start because people feel a need for change. Mages, in this case.

[Wumbologist]

I could care less about the Chantry. I just wish I didn't have to choose between my lover and healer, or my DLC character :/

[dgcatanisiri]

The Circle, in my eyes, creates more maleficar and blood mages than it prevents - it's no life, it's a prison sentence, and a sentence for no other reason than the circumstance of your birth. There's no alternative, it's go to the Circle or be labeled an apostate which means you are automatically considered a maleficar and a blood mage and you need to die. The templars have all the power and authority, while the mages get nothing. Their voices go unheard because the templars have decided that they can't listen to them or they'll fall under the sway and power of the mages. Every mage is guilty until dead in the eyes of the average templar, and there's practically nothing that can be done to persuade them otherwise.

The system is flawed, and in Kirkwall, this is far more apparent, with the Knight-Commander ordering the tranquilizing of any mage who even voices a word of discontent. Being made tranquil is a horrible thing - it's effectively a lobotomy, so Meredith is doling out practically a lobotomy every few HOURS.

So yes, I do believe the templars were wrong and I sided with the mages. But the Chantry's destruction... I waver on that one. It was a horrible act, destroying any chance of a peaceful resolution (never mind Meredith being influenced by the lyrium idol), and killing one of the few members of the Chantry I found respectable, the Grand Cleric. At the same time, though... I don't think Elthina was using her Maker-given voice to speak out against the injustice. The Chantry is supposed to have authority over the templars, isn't it? Even accounting for Meredith's power-hunger, the fact is, she lets this rabid dog run around and makes no attempt to pick up the leash. It certainly doesn't excuse blowing up the Chantry, but Elthina was not an innocent.

I can't call it the right thing, but I can also see how it isn't necessarily the wrong thing either - I admit, I can't see a peaceful alternative to everything that was going down in Kirkwall, not with who was representing the two sides. This set off the spark to the powder keg before Meredith had a chance to replace every templar with the crazies who would follow her path regardless and when Orsino didn't have the strength or knowledge in blood magic to bring forth something more powerful and influential than just what he became.

Frankly, I can't quite see a 'right' or 'wrong' position to this particular problem. Which is what I think BioWare was going for when they wrote it.

[Statulos]

Yet he defends a bunch of people who use it on a normal basis and arrange the best demon-raves of all Thedas.

Revolutions start because an individual or group of them point at a situation considered unfair and elaborate on an alternative. Risign against is rebellion, not revolution. Anders is inciting a rebellion for he has no idea what is going to happen after even if it happens, because his move was great to deny mages support.

[Makeshift Riot]

I've wanted to do it for a long time. I would have blown it up too, but I would have gotten the stubborn lady out of it first; I liked her.

Plus I love Anders; even if he is broken and sort of emo. Better than a broody elf.

[Augustei]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

.....Anders was an idiot, nuff said.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 15 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Parrk]

I do not think he did the right thing. I am a mage or mage sympathizer on every playthrough, After my first time, I've taken to killing him. He is a liability.

Certainly it is appropriate to wage war against the chantry and take violent actions against them. It is a religioun .....with and army.

You should focus your ire on that army though. Chantries are filled with devout people who actually do the maker's work. Perhaps he could have been justified in blowing up Chantry HQ in Orlais, but not some local chapter staffed by a benevolent leader who wants only peace.

Modifié par Parrk, 15 mars 2011 - 06:38 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Of course Anders was right. Lobotomizing Karl and many other like him was a terrible crime. An evil institution like that should be destroyed.

I hope that in Dragon Age 3, we get to sink a dagger into the White Divine's chest. That would be epic.

[Phex]

I think the Chantry bombing was very heavily influenced by Vengeance. The dialogue you have with Anders if you rivalry romance him also makes it seem so. Anders believed that mages should live free of the Circle, as normal human beings with equal rights and wanted the Chantry to see this. I think that's a good cause to fight for but Vengeance - not Justice - made him take it to the extreme which I do not approve of.

I really loved this twist in the story, especially since my rogue Hawke romanced him. She grew up with Bethany in a world where they had to constantly watch their backs, otherwise they would be separated for life and never see each other again. Then once she became closer with Anders it was only natural she would support his cause, she wouldn't be prepared to lose her sister and her lover. So when the time came and Hawke really saw what happened... It was pretty hard to decide. I don't know if I should be sad that my Hawke will never get a break and live a happy life, or to congratulate BioWare on excellent storywriting.

[vigna]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

[Phex]

Many of the possessed mages were also fighting for their lives, to not be made tranquil or put into the Circle, or executed for being apostates (not counting the few nutjobs). I guess Anders' argument would be that if mages were treated like normal people, they wouldn't feel the need to turn to demons as a last resort.

[Thomas Andresen]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

In other words, you would say that the church-burners in Norway are doing the right thing, by burning down national treasures only because they don't agree with Christianity? Not only does it accomplish nothing, by itself, aside from small cult followings, most of those structures are aesthically and historically significant, regardless of religious connection.

That said, I'm no fan of religion myself, and see too many connections between the Chantry's beliefs and Christianity(and probably a lot of other religions). Though while I think the our world would be better off without them, I think religions such as this one adds flavour to a game.

Anders was right about one thing, though. The chain of events he started eventually led to the mages rebelling all over Thedas, and from what the last cutscene told us, they had been very successful so far.

[Kenshen]

Arppis wrote...

I don't like religion being used as a tool either. I am an atheist. But I do see that some people find hope and comfort in religion at the time of need. It's sad that people need to paint these images in their heads about heaven and such, but it's just a way to make sure they don't lose their minds, give some comfort in the dark times. People are different and they have different needs.

That being said. I didn't get so upset for blowing up the Chantry, but the fact that so many good people died there, like the leader of the Chantry who wanted nothing more than peaceful sollution, like my "wisecracking" Hawke. I got really angry at Anders, even when he was my only healer, I just killed him there. He ruined everything, ruined a chance for peaceful resolution.

And that is why he was wrong.

 
I agreed with you up to the bolded part.  It is pretty clear there wasn't going to be a peaceful resolution to the problem.  I could not accept what Anders did and I killed him for it but really the only thing he did was speed up the coming war.

Say Anders didn't blow up the chantry does anyone really think killing the head of the templars would go unnoticed, if you are pro mage that is?  Yeah she was crazy but that act wouldn't sit well and the right to annulment order would have come anyways.

I will say this as well the head chanter lady has to take some blame for that mess even though she was the target of the attack.  Why is because she could have helped to prevent the growing tension between the two sides yet decieded to stay on the fence throughout the game.  Now I am not sure even she could have stopped it but she also never tried.

[Corwyn]

Makeshift Riot wrote...

I've wanted to do it for a long time. I would have blown it up too, but I would have gotten the stubborn lady out of it first; I liked her.

Plus I love Anders; even if he is broken and sort of emo. Better than a broody elf.

So it' bad because you liked the lady but all the other bystanders in there worshipping totally had it coming right?

[Zalocx]

Sefferz wrote...

Many of the possessed mages were also fighting for their lives, to not be made tranquil or put into the Circle, or executed for being apostates (not counting the few nutjobs). I guess Anders' argument would be that if mages were treated like normal people, they wouldn't feel the need to turn to demons as a last resort.

Fenris' entire existance makes this statement a bold faced lie. Tivinter mages are ANYTHING but opressed and against the wall and the vast majority of them turn to Blood Magic, slavery, human sacrifice, and demon dealing.

Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior? Yes the Chantry controls the Templars but that does not mean every Templar answers to every Chantry Mother. In fact in civic organizations (like religions and governments) that have a militant arm this is hardly ever the case. The US armed forces for example are under the command of the United States government, yet a senator has no ability to order a general living in his state to do what he wants, only the whole Congress alongside the President can do that. Likewise the Crusader orders (like the actual Knights Templar) claimed to be under the Catholic Church, but were not beholden to every bishop or cardinal. If the Pope said something they obayed. If a local Church offical did they respected the advice but did not have to obey. I guess its same with the Templars, by "they answer to the Chantry" it means they answer to the White Divine, a council in Orlais, or the Seekers. Not to every other Revered Mother in the local chantry.

[Aithieel]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS! 

In other words, you would say that the church-burners in Norway are doing the right thing, by burning down national treasures only because they don't agree with Christianity? Not only does it accomplish nothing, by itself, aside from small cult followings, most of those structures are aesthically and historically significant, regardless of religious connection.

That said, I'm no fan of religion myself, and see too many connections between the Chantry's beliefs and Christianity(and probably a lot of other religions). Though while I think the our world would be better off without them, I think religions such as this one adds flavour to a game.

Anders was right about one thing, though. The chain of events he started eventually led to the mages rebelling all over Thedas, and from what the last cutscene told us, they had been very successful so far.

Thomas but think about one thing; the game world is different than ours. Chantry wasn't just neutral. It always taught that mages should be locked in cirles becouse are extremely dangerous.

Modifié par Aithieel, 15 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Makeshift Riot]

Macgarnickle wrote...

Makeshift Riot wrote...

I've wanted to do it for a long time. I would have blown it up too, but I would have gotten the stubborn lady out of it first; I liked her.

Plus I love Anders; even if he is broken and sort of emo. Better than a broody elf.

So it' bad because you liked the lady but all the other bystanders in there worshipping totally had it coming right?

Totally because it is a video game and not real life and some people in here seem to be taking it far too seriously.

[Veronica Ward]

But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

It is also heavily implied that Andraste was in fact a mage, possibly an abomination herself (much like Anders) It stands to reason (In the land of dragons and magical pantaloons) that her ashes might hold some residual power.

What about the characters that aren't mages that do horrible things all on their own without a
demon whispering in thier ears. Isabella stands out to me and she's on your team! Meredith was not a "cow", she was a tyrant using her position to justify it.

The Grand Cleric should have picked the wrong side from my perspective so she got what she deserved.
If you sit back and maintain the status quo, when that status quo is dehumanizing and exploiting a group of people for circumstances beyond thier control. . . well you reap what you sow.

Modifié par Veronica Ward, 15 mars 2011 - 08:07 .