1411 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

OldMan91 wrote...
Alternative history is the stuff commoners like you and me like to brainstorm about. The "What If?" historical scenarios are always the most interesting (Hearts of Iron game series are awesome for this reason)... and the most fruitless unfortunately, though you seem like a rather civil internet gentleman.

I love Hearts of Iron. Makes my tear my hair out with the difficultly, though. 

I think the really challenging questions in alternate history aren't asking ourselves how things would be different if events didn't happen; rather I think they are asking ourselves whether events would be the same if they had a different catalyst.

Anders like a Serbian nationalist? Now that's an interesting comparison. Though i'd argue that their ends differ, and if I were to measure on a scale which ideal was better (self-determination vs the rights of a minority + the political precedent of "unjust laws must be resisted"), i'd say gaining rights is more favorable and progressive.

But from the PoV of Princip, self-determination was gaing the right of a minority within the Austro-Hungarian empire. More importantly, I don't think Anders wanted mages to be free as much as he wanted mages to fight. His speech after denotating the Chantry talks about how the injustice can't continue, and how it's better to be dead than in the Circle. 

That may very well have happened, considering the material conditions of Kirkwall. I would say that revolutions usually happen when a single event incites the general populace to revolt. 

Orsino went to Elthina to have Meredith removed. If he didn't back down from Elthina again, I think Meredith would have acted; it would have been the same situation. She would have claimed his demands to be free from the Chantry justified the Right in and of itself, and Orsino would have refused to submit to her anymore. 

The only reason we didn't have a mage rebellion at the start of Act III was Orsino backing down, remember.

The equivalent of that in Kirkwall is Anders blowing up the Chantry and creating a conflict where mages are forced to defend themselves from the templars.

But Meredith wanted the Right of Annulment anyway. If Divine Justinia refused (or if she ordered an Exalted March on her own citiy as Sebastian refused to believe) that could have sparked the powderkeg as easily.

Is it an ideal way of inciting revolts across Thedas? Of course not. Then again, revolutions aren't perfect or ideal in the sense that there is no prescribed formula applicaple to all pre-revolutionary circumstances. Queue obligatory Che quote on the subject (I like quotes if you couldn't tell): "The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall."

No. But so long as we're debating what Anders did, there were simply better ways for him to start the revolution. Trying to have Hawke (for example) openly call for Meredith's removal would have been a major turning point. 

edit:

Hell, using actual blood magic and controlling Elthina to order for Meredith's removal would have been enough. Her loyal guards would resist, she would riot against them (like she did Hawke) and could very well have declared Elthina unfit and called for a RoA then and there. 

If the mages won in Kirkwall and held the city as a free-mage city, that could have sparked rebellion just as easily. 

Modifié par In Exile, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[Rifneno]

In Exile wrote...

So, then, if the mages had to do very unsavory things to win, like torture or imprison templars, that would be okay? Even if it took years?

We're discussing what's a legitimate target, how did we wind up at torture and imprisonment? And no, I wouldn't be okay with torture. For the most part anyway, I wouldn't judge anyone for doing something horrible to, say, Ser Karras. Year of it, no. But I can't say I wouldn't find it funny if someone went Lorena Bobbitt on him. It doesn't matter anyway, torture doesn't win wars. The information you get is rarely reliable and mages have better ways of getting information. Imprisonment? ... You're joking, right? Would I have a problem with templars being imprisoned?

He's clearly insane. But what we're debating is whether he did the right thing. It has nothing to do with how right the insane abomination thinks he is.

He's not "clearly insane." The only instance I've seen of Anders going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs is the Alrik situation. One time and under a situation where Justice had an unprecedented amount of control. Remember that Justice gets more control when Anders loses it emotionally. After seeing Alrik telling a terrified young woman that he was going to tranquil her and rape her because she was trying to say goodbye to her mother, and knowing this is the same freak that tranquilled his own lover... who wouldn't completely lose it?

Regardless, he can't be blamed for not having knowledge that only we as players do. He certainly had no way of knowing Meredith was being controlled by an ancient evil and that she was going to explode soon no matter what he did. Holding that against him is ridiculous. You might as well blame Sebastian for not "bothering" to warn his family about the Harimanns.

[Sinaxi]

Lol I wonder how Sebastian's whole "wah!! I'm
marching on Kirkwall to kill you and your friends Anders!" worked out when we all got the hell out of town. If only he'd been in the Chantry...darn...

[Rifneno]

Tidra wrote...

Lol I wonder how Sebastian's whole "wah!! I'm
marching on Kirkwall to kill you and your friends Anders!" worked out when we all got the hell out of town. If only he'd been in the Chantry...darn...

I imagine it took him a while anyway, what with having to wait for a spare army to check the Starkhaven Chanter's Board.

Evil blood mage option that would've been fun:  Blood control Sebastian, make him kill Elthina himself.  Let control of him go.  As he's stunned at the sheer horror, raise Elthina's corpse and have it kill him too.

[Sinaxi]

LOL I love you. Sebastian would have cried himself to sleep for the rest of his life.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
The information you get is rarely reliable and mages have better ways of getting information.

Ah, so the mental violation as opposed to the physical. Well, that's better. 

Imprisonment? ... You're joking, right? Would I have a problem with templars being imprisoned?

I was talking post-war, if the mages win.

He's not "clearly insane." The only instance I've seen of Anders going cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs is the Alrik situation.

Did you rival him? With his path fixed in 1.03. he flies off the handle prior to orbital lazering the Chantry. 

He also always had a breakdown in Act II and gives up on his mage rebellion for some time.

Remember that Justice gets more control when Anders loses it emotionally. After seeing Alrik telling a terrified young woman that he was going to tranquil her and rape her because she was trying to say goodbye to her mother, and knowing this is the same freak that tranquilled his own lover... who wouldn't completely lose it?

That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick. 

Regardless, he can't be blamed for not having knowledge that only we as players do.

He can be blamed for having knowledge that he should have. Which is what we're talking about. Anders being in the wrong and failing the mages in Kirkwall 

He certainly had no way of knowing Meredith was being controlled by an ancient evil and that she was going to explode soon no matter what he did. Holding that against him is ridiculous. You might as well blame Sebastian for not "bothering" to warn his family about the Harimanns.

Killing Meredith and having the mages push the templars out of Kirkwall achieves the same thing, and provides the other Circles with the same message the massacre in Kirkwal did: the templars can be beaten. The only difference is that this plan doesn't require genocide. 

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

That's not Anders talking, that's Justice. However intertwined they may be, their personalities are still distinct, and to us players at least, the difference should be obvious. As you say yourself, Anders is still glowing when this dialogue occurs, which means someone else is taking his calls. You'll remember also that Ella says "Get away from me, demon!" to which Justice replies "I am no demon! Are you one of them [a templar] that you would call me so?"

Justice turns on Ella because he assumes that her ignorance means she's a templar, a warrior for the injustice he abhors. Rational? Perhaps not, but when has Justice ever been? Remember in Awakening, when he said Ser Pounce-a-lot was a slave? Justice is basically the Rorschach of Dragon Age; he sees things as black and white with no inbetween, he's prone to leaping to conclusions, and as a spirit, he can never truly understand the intricacies of the material plane and its inhabitants.

But that reflects nothing on Anders, who is struggling against Justice internally, trying to reassert control, and may or may not succeed depending on dialogue options. Yes, one can draw parallels between Ander's situation and mental illness, but to say it is mental illness would be false. Anders is not merely hearing voices, he literally has another sentient being inside him. If he only thought he was possessed, like Keldar, or if "Justice" was the name of his alternate personality, that would be insanity.

[Rifneno]

Tidra wrote...

LOL I love you. Sebastian would have cried himself to sleep for the rest of his life.

No he wouldn't. Zombie Elthina kills him, remember?

In Exile wrote...

Ah, so the mental violation as opposed to the physical. Well, that's better.

Nice job taking a single sentence out of context, and apparently implying I was endorsing it. You should get a job at FOX News.

I was talking post-war, if the mages win.

I guess that was my fault for not being psychic. And still, I think it'd be funny if the templars were imprisoned. Poetic justice is awesome.

Did you rival him? With his path fixed in 1.03. he flies off the handle prior to orbital lazering the Chantry.

No, I haven't. I've tried, but I just can't stomach playing a fascist.

He also always had a breakdown in Act II and gives up on his mage rebellion for some time.

Yeah, that was totally unrelated to the Dissent incident...

That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

You count it as a separate incident 15 seconds later? You'd be fun as a judge in one of those "three strikes" states.

He can be blamed for having knowledge that he should have. Which is what we're talking about. Anders being in the wrong and failing the mages in Kirkwall

Right, how could he not have known that Meredith was possessed and trying to get a RoA from the Divine?

Killing Meredith and having the mages push the templars out of Kirkwall achieves the same thing, and provides the other Circles with the same message the massacre in Kirkwal did: the templars can be beaten. The only difference is that this plan doesn't require genocide.

Oh, even better. I didn't know he could just curbstomp the entire templar order whenever he wanted.

Modifié par Rifneno, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:33 .

[River5]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

That's not Anders talking, that's Justice. However intertwined they may be, their personalities are still distinct, and to us players at least, the difference should be obvious. As you say yourself, Anders is still glowing when this dialogue occurs, which means someone else is taking his calls. You'll remember also that Ella says "Get away from me, demon!" to which Justice replies "I am no demon! Are you one of them [a templar] that you would call me so?"

Justice turns on Ella because he assumes that her ignorance means she's a templar, a warrior for the injustice he abhors. Rational? Perhaps not, but when has Justice ever been? Remember in Awakening, when he said Ser Pounce-a-lot was a slave? Justice is basically the Rorschach of Dragon Age; he sees things as black and white with no inbetween, he's prone to leaping to conclusions, and as a spirit, he can never truly understand the intricacies of the material plane and its inhabitants.

But that reflects nothing on Anders, who is struggling against Justice internally, trying to reassert control, and may or may not succeed depending on dialogue options. Yes, one can draw parallels between Ander's situation and mental illness, but to say it is mental illness would be false. Anders is not merely hearing voices, he literally has another sentient being inside him. If he only thought he was possessed, like Keldar, or if "Justice" was the name of his alternate personality, that would be insanity.

Actually, when Justice says "Are you one of them, that you would call me such (a demon)?", I thought that he meant that he believed that Ella had been consorting with demons herself, not that she was a Templar.

When he tells Hawke "She is theirs (the demon's)!  I can feel their hold on her!"  I always believed that Justice was angry because he thought that Ella had given in to blood magic (either in the past, or that she was still using it).

At some point, Anders expresses the belief that mages that use blood magic, or make deals with demons are their own worst enemies.  And that their actions are hindering his and Justice's efforts to free them.

That's why I thought that Justice had lost it on Ella, who then momentarily went from victim, to ennemy.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[FieryDove]

River5 wrote...

Actually, when Justice says "Are you one of them, that you would call me such (a demon)?", I thought that he meant that he believed that Ella had been consorting with demons herself, not that she was a Templar.

When he tells Hawke "She is theirs (the demon's)!  I can feel their hold on her!"  I always believed that Justice was angry because he thought that Ella had given in to blood magic (either in the past, or that she was still using it).

At some point, Anders expresses the belief that mages that use blood magic, or make deals with demons are their own worst enemies.  And that their actions are hindering his and Justice's efforts to free them.

That's why I thought that Justice had lost it on Ella, who then momentarily went from victim, to ennemy.

Of course, I could be wrong.

That is a very interesting way to look at it...and now that I think about it, I agree.

[Plaintiff]

River5 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

That's not Anders talking, that's Justice. However intertwined they may be, their personalities are still distinct, and to us players at least, the difference should be obvious. As you say yourself, Anders is still glowing when this dialogue occurs, which means someone else is taking his calls. You'll remember also that Ella says "Get away from me, demon!" to which Justice replies "I am no demon! Are you one of them [a templar] that you would call me so?"

Justice turns on Ella because he assumes that her ignorance means she's a templar, a warrior for the injustice he abhors. Rational? Perhaps not, but when has Justice ever been? Remember in Awakening, when he said Ser Pounce-a-lot was a slave? Justice is basically the Rorschach of Dragon Age; he sees things as black and white with no inbetween, he's prone to leaping to conclusions, and as a spirit, he can never truly understand the intricacies of the material plane and its inhabitants.

But that reflects nothing on Anders, who is struggling against Justice internally, trying to reassert control, and may or may not succeed depending on dialogue options. Yes, one can draw parallels between Ander's situation and mental illness, but to say it is mental illness would be false. Anders is not merely hearing voices, he literally has another sentient being inside him. If he only thought he was possessed, like Keldar, or if "Justice" was the name of his alternate personality, that would be insanity.

Actually, when Justice says "Are you one of them, that you would call me such (a demon)?", I thought that he meant that he believed that Ella had been consorting with demons herself, not that she was a Templar.

When he tells Hawke "She is theirs (the demon's)!  I can feel their hold on her!"  I always believed that Justice was angry because he thought that Ella had given in to blood magic (either in the past, or that she was still using it).

At some point, Anders expresses the belief that mages that use blood magic, or make deals with demons are their own worst enemies.  And that their actions are hindering his and Justice's efforts to free them.

That's why I thought that Justice had lost it on Ella, who then momentarily went from victim, to ennemy.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I think, given the context of the situation, templars is more likely. Justice is talking about templars just prior to turning on her ("I will see every last one of them burn" or something along those lines). If the subject of the conversation suddenly switched to demons, he would've clarified (or the writing is truly as terrible as everyone says). Templars are the hot button that causes Justice to pop out and say hello, as it were. Anders despises blood mages, sure, but nothing like to the same extent that he does the templars. He dislikes blood magic on principle, but his hatred of the templars is deeply personal and inspires a completely different kind of rage. Justice never comes out around blood mages. If he did, Merril would be purged off the face of the earth before she even had time to say hello.

[EmperorSahlertz]

River5 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

That's not Anders talking, that's Justice. However intertwined they may be, their personalities are still distinct, and to us players at least, the difference should be obvious. As you say yourself, Anders is still glowing when this dialogue occurs, which means someone else is taking his calls. You'll remember also that Ella says "Get away from me, demon!" to which Justice replies "I am no demon! Are you one of them [a templar] that you would call me so?"

Justice turns on Ella because he assumes that her ignorance means she's a templar, a warrior for the injustice he abhors. Rational? Perhaps not, but when has Justice ever been? Remember in Awakening, when he said Ser Pounce-a-lot was a slave? Justice is basically the Rorschach of Dragon Age; he sees things as black and white with no inbetween, he's prone to leaping to conclusions, and as a spirit, he can never truly understand the intricacies of the material plane and its inhabitants.

But that reflects nothing on Anders, who is struggling against Justice internally, trying to reassert control, and may or may not succeed depending on dialogue options. Yes, one can draw parallels between Ander's situation and mental illness, but to say it is mental illness would be false. Anders is not merely hearing voices, he literally has another sentient being inside him. If he only thought he was possessed, like Keldar, or if "Justice" was the name of his alternate personality, that would be insanity.

Actually, when Justice says "Are you one of them, that you would call me such (a demon)?", I thought that he meant that he believed that Ella had been consorting with demons herself, not that she was a Templar.

When he tells Hawke "She is theirs (the demon's)!  I can feel their hold on her!"  I always believed that Justice was angry because he thought that Ella had given in to blood magic (either in the past, or that she was still using it).

At some point, Anders expresses the belief that mages that use blood magic, or make deals with demons are their own worst enemies.  And that their actions are hindering his and Justice's efforts to free them.

That's why I thought that Justice had lost it on Ella, who then momentarily went from victim, to ennemy.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Huh, that is an interresting interpretation of that situation. I had never thought about it like that, but what you say actually makes a whole lot more sense to me. I always wondered how Justice could "feel" the Templars hold on a amge who was running away from the Templars..

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Lol I wonder how Sebastian's whole "wah!! I'm marching on Kirkwall to kill you and your friends Anders!" worked out when we all got the hell out of town. If only he'd been in the Chantry...darn...

I imagine it took him a while anyway, what with having to wait for a spare army to check the Starkhaven Chanter's Board.

Evil blood mage option that would've been fun:  Blood control Sebastian, make him kill Elthina himself.  Let control of him go.  As he's stunned at the sheer horror, raise Elthina's corpse and have it kill him too.

That does make me wonder, why doesn't Sebastian ever acknowledge that Hawke is a mage? The protagonist has a conversation with Fenris over the issue - and it's repeated time and again because of his backstory with Danarius. If a pro-Chantry royal like Sebastian would contemplate and discuss handing over the apostates in Hawke's group with Fenris, why doesn't he ever acknowledge that Hawke is a mage? It doesn't even come up when he discusses how he thinks Hawke should be Viscount.

Given how quickly King Alistair seemed to forgive The Warden for sparing Loghain (for the death of Duncan - Alistair's surrogate father-figure), I wonder whether they'll even have Sebastian remain angry at Hawke if he spares Anders.

Tidra wrote...

LOL I love you. Sebastian would have cried himself to sleep for the rest of his life.

Until the next chapter in the storyline, at least: Blood mage Hawke versus Zombie Sebastian.

[esper]

Yeah that discussion with Fenris is really unlucky. My canon Hawke is a blood mage so when Sebastian talked about telling on the Malificarums in the group she thought he meant her. Sebastian didn't get to do one act III quest after that.

[Sinaxi]

Plaintiff wrote...

In Exile wrote...
That's not where Anders goes bonkers with Alrik. It's after, when she's terrified of his clearly glowing "I-am-an-Abomination" shtick.

That's not Anders talking, that's Justice. However intertwined they may be, their personalities are still distinct, and to us players at least, the difference should be obvious. As you say yourself, Anders is still glowing when this dialogue occurs, which means someone else is taking his calls. You'll remember also that Ella says "Get away from me, demon!" to which Justice replies "I am no demon! Are you one of them [a templar] that you would call me so?"

Justice turns on Ella because he assumes that her ignorance means she's a templar, a warrior for the injustice he abhors. Rational? Perhaps not, but when has Justice ever been? Remember in Awakening, when he said Ser Pounce-a-lot was a slave? Justice is basically the Rorschach of Dragon Age; he sees things as black and white with no inbetween, he's prone to leaping to conclusions, and as a spirit, he can never truly understand the intricacies of the material plane and its inhabitants.

But that reflects nothing on Anders, who is struggling against Justice internally, trying to reassert control, and may or may not succeed depending on dialogue options. Yes, one can draw parallels between Ander's situation and mental illness, but to say it is mental illness would be false. Anders is not merely hearing voices, he literally has another sentient being inside him. If he only thought he was possessed, like Keldar, or if "Justice" was the name of his alternate personality, that would be insanity.

Yeah, that is one thing I have always thought about. Anders tells Hawke repeatedly in the game that it was HIS anger that changed Justice to Vengeance, but seeing the way Justice acted in Awakenings it makes me wonder if it really isn't the other way around. I know sometime inbetween awakenings and da2 anders must have realized he was not doing anything to solve the problem by just ignoring it but still, he has changed a lot from being the guy who "didn't want to get involved". Justice guilt tripped him a lot in Awakenings about not doing anything for the mages. I mean, geez, even LIKING Hawke is a "DISTRACTION" to the cause. Just hard to tell where you can draw the line with those two, if there is even any line left at all.

[esper]

I actually don't think Justice has changed much. He was always an eye for an eye type of Justice which always have been Vengenacne to me. He actually scared me a bit in awaking. Also his objection for siding with the architecht is not: This guy is dangerous and is trying to trick us and might be an even larger danger in the future (which is the obvious objection), but "we must avenge the fallen" - so Justice has always been representing a vengance spirit to me. So I couldn't see Anders possession ending any different, but I was surprised that bioware had the gall to actually do a bombing of a building.

-edited

Modifié par esper, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:23 .

[River5]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think, given the context of the situation, templars is more likely. Justice is talking about templars just prior to turning on her ("I will see every last one of them burn" or something along those lines). If the subject of the conversation suddenly switched to demons, he would've clarified (or the writing is truly as terrible as everyone says). Templars are the hot button that causes Justice to pop out and say hello, as it were. Anders despises blood mages, sure, but nothing like to the same extent that he does the templars. He dislikes blood magic on principle, but his hatred of the templars is deeply personal and inspires a completely different kind of rage. Justice never comes out around blood mages. If he did, Merril would be purged off the face of the earth before she even had time to say hello.

Well, the reason why I'm saying that, is because the subject of conversation *had* just switched from Templars, to demons.

Ella says: "Get away from me, DEMON!"
Justice replies: "I am no demon.  Are you one of them (blood mage / demon consort), that you would call me such?"

Justice didn't turn on her until then.  He was expressing his anger at what the Templars had done, and this scared Ella (prompting her to call him a demon).  But he wasn't directly threatening her until then.

He took a step closer to Ella, then turned around while confronting Hawke; but he wasn't going for Ella at all.

Look here:  www.youtube.com/watch

And it makes more sense to me that Justice would be able to feel a demon's hold on someone; than a Templar's hold.

From my understanding, demons and spirits despise each other and have forever been at war.  Therefore, her calling him a demon (the very thing a spirit despises the most)  could have prompted him to turn on Ella just as well.

Of course, the Templars are what initially made him come out (and he killed them all with Hawke and the other's help)...  Ella, at that point, just accidentally added fuel to the fire by bringing in the demon / blood mage issue.

[FieryDove]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think, given the context of the situation, templars is more likely. Justice is talking about templars just prior to turning on her ("I will see every last one of them burn" or something along those lines). If the subject of the conversation suddenly switched to demons, he would've clarified (or the writing is truly as terrible as everyone says). Templars are the hot button that causes Justice to pop out and say hello, as it were. Anders despises blood mages, sure, but nothing like to the same extent that he does the templars. He dislikes blood magic on principle, but his hatred of the templars is deeply personal and inspires a completely different kind of rage. Justice never comes out around blood mages. If he did, Merril would be purged off the face of the earth before she even had time to say hello.

From what I got from Justice in DAA, he hated demons more than anything else. Back then he never even knew/cared about templars/mages until he learned of it from Anders discussing it. I still think from other DA2 gameplay events Justice still detests demons even moreso than templars to this day. That includes anyone, even Hawke saying he is nothing but a demon or calling Anders an abomination in a bad light which means Justice is a demon.

Just my take on it.

esper wrote...

I actually don't think Justice has changed much. He was always an eye for an eye type of Justice which always have been Vengenacne to me. He actually scared me a bit in awaking. Also his objection for siding with the architecht is not: This guy is dangerous and is trying to trick us and might be an even larger danger in the future (which is the obvious objection), but "we must avenge the fallen" - so Justice has always been representing a vengance spirit to me. -edited

I agree. Justice is still there.

Modifié par FieryDove, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[Plaintiff]

River5 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think, given the context of the situation, templars is more likely. Justice is talking about templars just prior to turning on her ("I will see every last one of them burn" or something along those lines). If the subject of the conversation suddenly switched to demons, he would've clarified (or the writing is truly as terrible as everyone says). Templars are the hot button that causes Justice to pop out and say hello, as it were. Anders despises blood mages, sure, but nothing like to the same extent that he does the templars. He dislikes blood magic on principle, but his hatred of the templars is deeply personal and inspires a completely different kind of rage. Justice never comes out around blood mages. If he did, Merril would be purged off the face of the earth before she even had time to say hello.

Well, the reason why I'm saying that, is because the subject of conversation *had* just switched from Templars, to demons.

Ella says: "Get away from me, DEMON!"
Justice replies: "I am no demon.  Are you one of them (blood mage / demon consort), that you would call me such?"

Justice didn't turn on her until then.  He was expressing his anger at what the Templars had done, and this scared Ella (prompting her to call him a demon).  But he wasn't directly threatening her until then.

He took a step closer to Ella, then turned around while confronting Hawke; but he wasn't going for Ella at all.

Look here:  www.youtube.com/watch

And it makes more sense to me that Justice would be able to feel a demon's hold on someone; than a Templar's hold.

From my understanding, demons and spirits despise each other and have forever been at war.  Therefore, her calling him a demon (the very thing a spirit despises the most)  could have prompted him to turn on Ella just as well.

Of course, the Templars are what initially made him come out (and he killed them all with Hawke and the other's help)...  Ella, at that point, just accidentally added fuel to the fire by bringing in the demon / blood mage issue.

It's possible, I guess? It still seems unlikely to me. If Ella was more familiar with demons, or possessed by one, she would recognize Justice for what he truly is. Templars would not make the distinction, because they cannot and because Chantry teaching tells them only a demon will seek to possess others. Justice doesn't understand that people have a hard time telling the difference because to him, it's obvious. Mages, through their connection to the Fade, are supposed to be able to sense demonic presence. Ella, being young, may not have yet learned how to tell, but if she's associated with demons before, she would be familiar with them and would recognize Justice as something else.

As for the use of "feeling", I've always thought that Justice, being a spirit, perceives things that we cannot, in ways that we cannot, and so when he describes them, it comes out differently.

When he says "I feel their hold on her", I always interpreted it to mean "I can see in her mind that she's been sucked in by their dogma", probably because she's seeing this scary thing and thinking "Oh ****, the Templars were right after all!" Ella was breaking out of the Gallows to see her mother, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's against the Circle in general and she may well have intended to return had Alrik not intercepted her. As denizens of the Fade, I was always under the impression that spirits were able to see into people's minds, the same way demons can. Justice is able to see that Ella is regretting her escape attempt (understandable, given the circumstances) and interprets that as supporting the injustice of the circle because, for him, there are no grey areas, you are with him or you are not.

If you are right, then it was very muddled. It would've been easy for Justice to clarify that he was talking about demons if that was what he meant. But who knows.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...


That does make me wonder, why doesn't Sebastian ever acknowledge that Hawke is a mage? The protagonist has a conversation with Fenris over the issue - and it's repeated time and again because of his backstory with Danarius. If a pro-Chantry royal like Sebastian would contemplate and discuss handing over the apostates in Hawke's group with Fenris, why doesn't he ever acknowledge that Hawke is a mage? It doesn't even come up when he discusses how he thinks Hawke should be Viscount.

That's simple. Sebastian is a subhuman beast I wouldn't even consider sentient. Really the only shock is that it can speak.

Given how quickly King Alistair seemed to forgive The Warden for sparing Loghain (for the death of Duncan - Alistair's surrogate father-figure), I wonder whether they'll even have Sebastian remain angry at Hawke if he spares Anders.

What? Alistair still seemed pissy about that 7 years later in Kirkwall...

Until the next chapter in the storyline, at least: Blood mage Hawke versus Zombie Sebastian.

"Seb, go attack that dragon! ... Hahahaha. Maker I love pet spells."

River5 wrote...

Well, the reason why I'm saying that, is because the subject of conversation *had* just switched from Templars, to demons.

Ella says: "Get away from me, DEMON!"
Justice replies: "I am no demon.  Are you one of them (blood mage / demon consort), that you would call me such?"

Justice didn't turn on her until then.  He was expressing his anger at what the Templars had done, and this scared Ella (prompting her to call him a demon).  But he wasn't directly threatening her until then.

He took a step closer to Ella, then turned around while confronting Hawke; but he wasn't going for Ella at all.

Look here:  www.youtube.com/watch

And it makes more sense to me that Justice would be able to feel a demon's hold on someone; than a Templar's hold.

From my understanding, demons and spirits despise each other and have forever been at war.  Therefore, her calling him a demon (the very thing a spirit despises the most)  could have prompted him to turn on Ella just as well.

Of course, the Templars are what initially made him come out (and he killed them all with Hawke and the other's help)...  Ella, at that point, just accidentally added fuel to the fire by bringing in the demon / blood mage issue.

Imagine the hilarity if we find out eventually that Justice went haywire on her because she really is possessed by a demon and he was the only one who could sense it.

I still find it annoying when people matter-of-factly refer to Justice as a demon. Some tool even edited him into the list of types of demons on the wiki.

[OldMan91]

In Exile wrote...

I love Hearts of Iron. Makes my tear my hair out with the difficultly, though. 

I think the really challenging questions in alternate history aren't asking ourselves how things would be different if events didn't happen; rather I think they are asking ourselves whether events would be the same if they had a different catalyst.

I invaded half of Europe with Republican Spain and kept 1/3 of the Soviet Union (Germany had invaded the SU and I "liberated" AKA annexed their territories). Good times.

Orsino went to Elthina to have Meredith removed. If he didn't back down from Elthina again, I think Meredith would have acted; it would have been the same situation. She would have claimed his demands to be free from the Chantry justified the Right in and of itself, and Orsino would have refused to submit to her anymore. 

The only reason we didn't have a mage rebellion at the start of Act III was Orsino backing down, remember.

...

But Meredith wanted the Right of Annulment anyway. If Divine Justinia refused (or if she ordered an Exalted March on her own citiy as Sebastian refused to believe) that could have sparked the powderkeg as easily.

Would it have caused a revolution? It may have or it may have not. We can't say how Meredith, the Divine or Elthina would have acted under different circumstances, since we only have so much information on their characters. We can make an educated guess, but it's very limited by the little information we have. Would Meredith really have acted against Elthina or the Divine? Personally I highly doubt it, even more so with the Divine. Meredith does not seem to be the sort of person who would go against the very organization she believes in, even with the idol-sword. 

No. But so long as we're debating what Anders did, there were simply better ways for him to start the revolution. Trying to have Hawke (for example) openly call for Meredith's removal would have been a major turning point.

Ah well, if your point is that there are other ways to start a revolution, then there is nothing to disagree on, given that I do agree with that idea.

edit:

Hell, using actual blood magic and controlling Elthina to order for Meredith's removal would have been enough. Her loyal guards would resist, she would riot against them (like she did Hawke) and could very well have declared Elthina unfit and called for a RoA then and there. 

If the mages won in Kirkwall and held the city as a free-mage city, that could have sparked rebellion just as easily. 

You would use blood magic? To control someone and make them your puppet? Exile, you're even more devious that I thought! We should have lunch together some time. I'm sure though someone would claim that using blood magic is an immoral way of starting a revolution, even if it may have saved the lives of Elthina and co.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The removal of Meredith would never start a revolution, quite the contrary, it would maintain the status quo. Only by letting Meredith remain Knight-Commander would you keep the volatile situation ripe for a revolution. With Meredith's removal, you would just get another Templar appointed, like Thrask or Cullen, which would be more dedicated to the actual duties of the Templar Order.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 juillet 2011 - 01:07 .

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The removal of Meredith would never start a revolution, quite the contrary, it would maintain the status quo. Only by letting Meredith remain Knight-Commander would you keep the volatile situation ripe for a revolution. With Meredith's removal, you would just get another Templar appointed, like Thrask or Cullen, which would be more dedicated to the actual duties of the Templar Order.

It causes me actual physical pain to say this, but I agree with Emp. A newer, better (then again, how could one be worse?) KC would have certainly kept a rebellion from happening. It more comes down to does one think the rebellion is better than the status quo.

[Augustei]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...
(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did
the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly
spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of
bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes
hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the
maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak
minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders
blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no
innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our
inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and
falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had
it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear.
Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If
this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to
remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally
fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just
as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened
against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!

Yeah! nothing spells ready for a qunari invasion (Since the Llomeryn Accord was broken) better than disunity and infighting between the two main defensive and unifying factions of the last invasions! =D..... Seriously though Anders was an idiot imo

sorry im late to the party =P

EDIT: hmm... appears I posted in this thread a couple of months back, Must have plain forgot about that

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 15 juillet 2011 - 02:04 .