1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The removal of Meredith would never start a revolution, quite the contrary, it would maintain the status quo. Only by letting Meredith remain Knight-Commander would you keep the volatile situation ripe for a revolution. With Meredith's removal, you would just get another Templar appointed, like Thrask or Cullen, which would be more dedicated to the actual duties of the Templar Order.

It causes me actual physical pain to say this, but I agree with Emp. A newer, better (then again, how could one be worse?) KC would have certainly kept a rebellion from happening. It more comes down to does one think the rebellion is better than the status quo.

... Wow. I never thought I'd see the day.

Tell me about it. I think I felt a chill run through my very soul.

[River5]

Rifneno wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The removal of Meredith would never start a revolution, quite the contrary, it would maintain the status quo. Only by letting Meredith remain Knight-Commander would you keep the volatile situation ripe for a revolution. With Meredith's removal, you would just get another Templar appointed, like Thrask or Cullen, which would be more dedicated to the actual duties of the Templar Order.

It causes me actual physical pain to say this, but I agree with Emp. A newer, better (then again, how could one be worse?) KC would have certainly kept a rebellion from happening. It more comes down to does one think the rebellion is better than the status quo.

... Wow. I never thought I'd see the day.

Tell me about it. I think I felt a chill run through my very soul.

Oh my!  We're suddenly all on the same page!  How did this ever happened?  

[KnightofPhoenix]

So we can all agree that the biggest incompetence came from the Chantry that didn't remove Meredith.

[Clangeddin86]

Well, from a "moral" point of view, who cares it's a videogame. just  a bunch of dead pixels, big deal.
From a "logical" point of view, of course he did the right thing, it's pretty much the only thing in DA II that drove the story of Thedas forward.

Modifié par Clangeddin86, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:53 .

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So we can all agree that the biggest incompetence came from the Chantry that didn't remove Meredith.

I'm not sure that was incompetence. I'm leaning more toward malice as an explanation.

Clangeddin86 wrote...

Well, from a "moral" point of view, who cares it's a videogame. just a bunch of dead pixels, big deal.

Obviously there's no difference to anyone real. We just like debating ethics. It's healthy to question one's morals, it's the only way they improve. Besides, what's the point of an RPG if you don't feel for the characters?

[Clangeddin86]

Obviously there's no difference to anyone real. We just like debating ethics. It's healthy to question one's morals, it's the only way they improve. Besides, what's the point of an RPG if you don't feel for the characters?

I really don't care about other people's morals. Nor I think that they can really "improve" in any way, since there's no objective/scientific score of morals. And even if there was, I wouldn't really care if it improved, stayed the same or got worse in any way.

I play RPGs just to pass time and have fun, like all other videogames. Besides in DA II there's hardly any character that I felt something for. Now, Ammon Jerro in NWN2, that was a well written character that I someone enjoyed and remember well, but in DAII there's no one that made me care, really.
Actually, in DA:O I only cared a little about the main characters' dwarf noble origin story, but after that, the interest in the character faded as well. The companions also seemed all so damn bland and boring to me, but I guess I must be picky.

Modifié par Clangeddin86, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:16 .

[PrinceLionheart]

lost lupus wrote...

even anders didnt believe it the "right" thing to do

as he said their can be no compremise

he blew it up because he wanted the war he wanted an uprising so he took away any chance of peace now every mage will be hunted they HAVE to fight back or be wiped

i dont understand how people can missinterpert this anders is even cool with you killing him for it he knows he did a horrible thing

he wasnt striking a blow for the mages or trying to wake people up to an injustice he was removing choice from all parties he wanted a battle and this was the way to ensure it would happen no Quater

to him peace is just cake he didnt believe mages can be free without fighting for it
so he forced all mages into a position where they would have to fight

Even though this is from 4-months ago, I'm still quoting from the truth. I honestly don't see the point in trying to defend Ander's actions, or at least the ethics behind it, when even he admits it was a horrible crime.There was no hidden meaning behind, Anders simply wanted war so change could be forced. In the larger scope of things, his deed may end up becoming a "necessary evil" but that doesn't stop me from killing him after wards.

[Rifneno]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I honestly don't see the point in trying to defend Ander's actions, or at least the ethics behind it, when even he admits it was a horrible crime.

And Aveline blames herself for "cruelly" killing her husband.

[Marduksdragon]

Rifneno wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So we can all agree that the biggest incompetence came from the Chantry that didn't remove Meredith.

I'm not sure that was incompetence. I'm leaning more toward malice as an explanation.

As scary as it may sound, I agree with Rifneno on leaning towards malice. Either on Elthina's part or on someone who had authority over her and could countermand her requests to have Meredith removed. Of course, given the Codex and what we know about Chantry organization, she should have had the authority to have Meredith removed or executed. That she did not speaks very ill of Elthina.

On topic- I think Anders was right to an extent. He certainly had the right target for everyone, not just the mages. The only problem I've consistantly had with the Chantry exploding is the collateral damage from building fallout, and possible uninvolved or tertiarially involved persons in the Chantry itself. (My first thought after initial shock and confusion  was 'thanks Anders. Hawke's house is down the street and there's burning chunks of building raining down from the sky, not like there's going to be a problem there...' I truly expected to get back to the house after game clear and find everyone dead and the place having been burned with holes in the roof-- as it stands Orana is missing from all the clears with no explanation and there's no word on what happened to Gamlen and Charade during the riots and fallout.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Malice does not exclude incompetence. In fact I'd argue that malice often leads to incompetence (like Meredith).

[Jamie_edmo]

Marduksdragon wrote...

On topic- I think Anders was right to an extent. He certainly had the right target for everyone, not just the mages. The only problem I've consistantly had with the Chantry exploding is the collateral damage from building fallout, and possible uninvolved or tertiarially involved persons in the Chantry itself. 

And with that, sympathy for mages from civilians (or whatever the people who arent templars or mages are called) is flushed down the toilet, and now its an uphill struggle for the mages to gain support for something that they should have (freedom) because of somebody that acted on their own

[DPSSOC]

To be fair the mages were always in for an uphill struggle. They're fighting generations of superstition and fear as well as the image of Templars as holy knights.

[Jamie_edmo]

^That has now been reinforced by a terrorist mage destroying what the templars stand (stood) for, further alienating mages from the general population, most are part of the andrastrian chantry too.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DPSSOC wrote...

To be fair the mages were always in for an uphill struggle. They're fighting generations of superstition and fear as well as the image of Templars as holy knights.

I wouldn't call it superstition, when the dangers are quite real...

[TEWR]

Jamie_edmo wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...

On topic- I think Anders was right to an extent. He certainly had the right target for everyone, not just the mages. The only problem I've consistantly had with the Chantry exploding is the collateral damage from building fallout, and possible uninvolved or tertiarially involved persons in the Chantry itself. 

And with that, sympathy for mages from civilians (or whatever the people who arent templars or mages are called) is flushed down the toilet, and now its an uphill struggle for the mages to gain support for something that they should have (freedom) because of somebody that acted on their own

I like to rationalize it as Anders deliberately made the bomb so that it would suck the Chantry up and propel it with such force that it lands outside the city.


Of course, that's primarily wishful thinking.

[DPSSOC]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

To be fair the mages were always in for an uphill struggle. They're fighting generations of superstition and fear as well as the image of Templars as holy knights.

I wouldn't call it superstition, when the dangers are quite real...

I was thinking along the lines of; magic is a curse, a mage being possessed is an inevitability, only mages can be possessed, all mages are evil, etc.  Yes there are real dangers to magic but there are also a lot of misconceptions that the Chantry and society in general have been reinforcing for some time now.

[Jamie_edmo]

DPSSOC wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

To be fair the mages were always in for an uphill struggle. They're fighting generations of superstition and fear as well as the image of Templars as holy knights.

I wouldn't call it superstition, when the dangers are quite real...

I was thinking along the lines of; magic is a curse, a mage being possessed is an inevitability, only mages can be possessed, all mages are evil, etc.  Yes there are real dangers to magic but there are also a lot of misconceptions that the Chantry and society in general have been reinforcing for some time now.

Yeh, the chantry has a habit of reinforcing misconceptions, i mean look at sister patrice and her view of the qunari

[EmperorSahlertz]

Magic IS a curse. A mage will forever be marked by his magic, and living a normal life will be impossible, that is why it is called a curse.

No one is claiming that all mages will inevitably become possessed. The Circles teach that without proper trainning a mage is a danger to everyone, and not just himself.

It may be a common misconception that only a mage can become possessed, but that probably stems from the fact that a non-mage can't become possessed through "natural" means, unless the veil is severely torn (though I don't recall an incident even then of a non-mage becoming possessed).

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair.

[Jamie_edmo]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair.

Is taking young children from their parents and locking them up in a tower full of strangers fair?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since that those very same children could end up killing their parents, their village and/or themselves if not, yes.

[In Exile]

Rifneno wrote...
Nice job taking a single sentence out of context, and apparently implying I was endorsing it. You should get a job at FOX News. 

I didn't single out any sentence. You addressed my point: you wouldn't support torture because blood magic (the Iduna link) would be able to get at it. But that's just a terrible form of mind control, and we know that from Cullen's experience in the Circle. 

I guess that was my fault for not being psychic. And still, I think it'd be funny if the templars were imprisoned. Poetic justice is awesome.

The Chantry also found it really funny when they imprinsoned mages after they gained power. Poetic justice, after the magisters. 

No, I haven't. I've tried, but I just can't stomach playing a fascist.

You don't have to endorse fascism to rival Anders, any more than you have to endorse terrorism to befriend Anders.

Yeah, that was totally unrelated to the Dissent incident...

No, it was the direct result of it. But if he was so not crazy, then giving up his cause because a breakdown is... what, exactly?

You count it as a separate incident 15 seconds later? You'd be fun as a judge in one of those "three strikes" states.

He killed Alrik, he was calm... and then Ella freaked out. And then Justice/Anders lost it all over again. Re-watch the scene if you want. 

But let's say you're right and it's one outburst - how would you explain why he tries to kill Ella in a way that makes him not crazy?

Right, how could he not have known that Meredith was possessed and trying to get a RoA from the Divine?

Why do you keep bringing this nonsence up? Killing Meredith is not impossible; Hawke does it, after all. And Anders has an orbital laser.

Oh, even better. I didn't know he could just curbstomp the entire templar order whenever he wanted.

With his orbital laser, he could blow up Meredith's office. If she goes Lightsaber mode, her templars will turn on her (they did when she called the RoA, too). 

You know, do something not stupid. 

[In Exile]

Marduksdragon wrote...
As scary as it may sound, I agree with Rifneno on leaning towards malice. Either on Elthina's part or on someone who had authority over her and could countermand her requests to have Meredith removed. Of course, given the Codex and what we know about Chantry organization, she should have had the authority to have Meredith removed or executed. That she did not speaks very ill of Elthina. 

You can challenge Elthina on this in the Faith ques with Sebastian. Hawke can say that she outright supports the templars. She counters by saying that she supports peace and that neither Meredith nor Orsino want that... but then that just means she acknowledges that Meredith is bonkers.

And she knows Meredith obeys her authority (and the templars do) because she orders them around in Act III. 

I don't think Elthina's malicious. I think she's planning to do exactly what she did with Petrice: let the mages kill Meredith if it comes to it, and then reign them in with promises of increased freedom after.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They didn't turn on her when she called the Annulment. They turned on her when she declared they had all been swayed by blood mages.

[DPSSOC]

Jamie_edmo wrote...
Yeh, the chantry has a habit of reinforcing misconceptions, i mean look at sister patrice and her view of the qunari

What misconception?

Qunari are heretics - check
Qunari presence is a challenge to the faith - check

Patrice may be an idiot for trying to pick a fight with the horned giants but I don't see where she was acting on misinformation about them.

[Jamie_edmo]

DPSSOC wrote...

Jamie_edmo wrote...
Yeh, the chantry has a habit of reinforcing misconceptions, i mean look at sister patrice and her view of the qunari

What misconception?

Qunari are heretics - check
Qunari presence is a challenge to the faith - check

Patrice may be an idiot for trying to pick a fight with the horned giants but I don't see where she was acting on misinformation about them.

Only to the chantry and their faith its not a fact that the maker exists etc