1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magic IS a curse. A mage will forever be marked by his magic, and living a normal life will be impossible, that is why it is called a curse.

Why does a mage have to be "forever marked"? Why is living a normal life impossible? Magic can be controlled, possession can be resisted, the bigoted opinions of the peasantry can be swayed.

No one is claiming that all mages will inevitably become possessed.

The Chantry is. Or at any rate, it allows the common people to think so and makes no effort to correct them.
 

The Circles teach that without proper trainning a mage is a danger to everyone, and not just himself.

Except the Circles can only teach that to other mages. They are never given the opportunity to correct the misconceptions of the public.

It may be a common misconception that only a mage can become possessed, but that probably stems from the fact that a non-mage can't become possessed through "natural" means, unless the veil is severely torn (though I don't recall an incident even then of a non-mage becoming possessed).

In Origins, the Circle Tower was rife with possessed templars who attacked you on your way up, there's Sophia Dryden as well, although I'm not sure if it possessed her before she died or after. In DA2 we have not only Wilmod, but Lady Harimann. The backstory of Dragon Age: Legends deals with Viscount Khedra of Kaiten being possessed by a Pride Demon. There's probably more.

Of course, don't forget that your entire party falls under the sway of demons when taken into the Fade.

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair

Except the Chantry blames mages for bringing "sin to heaven and doom to all the world". According to the Chant of Light, mages and magic are responsible for pretty much everything bad that ever happened to anyone. Even if they don't explicitly say "mages are evil and should be hated", that sure is the message they're sending.

[TEWR]

But let's say you're right and it's one outburst - how would you explain why he tries to kill Ella in a way that makes him not crazy?

Justice or Anders? If we're trying to explain why Justice may not be crazy, it's possible he thought Ella was possessed by a demon. His dialogue in that scene makes more sense regarding Ella being possessed by a demon than being a spy for the Templars.

Though there wasn't really a transition from Templars to Demons. But I like to see it that way.

[goofyomnivore]

Why does a mage have to be "forever marked"? Why is living a normal life impossible? Magic can be controlled, possession can be resisted, the bigoted opinions of the peasantry can be swayed.

That last one is a big hurdle. I have a hard time believing that one would get fixed anytime soon. Mages are great scapegoats for about any problem that threatens a community and/or individual. In or out of the Circle they will still get oppressed/targetted unfairly.

Modifié par strive, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:32 .

[Marduksdragon]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Malice does not exclude incompetence. In fact I'd argue that malice often leads to incompetence (like Meredith). [/quote]

This is truth. Taking my new rogue back through the conversations with Elthina today, her attitude when questioned becomes different. And if you challenge her, even if you do so poltitely, she becomes high-handed. Not someone who's looking for a diplomatic solution, but more like someone who simply does not want to address what's in front of her if her hands can get dirtied by it. I could believe incompetence leading to malice, or malice leading to incompetence either way-- it just seems like the more I talk to Elthina the less I'm convinced of her commitment to peace in anything more than word. Ghandi was committed to peace and peaceful revolution (after what he witnessed in South Africa) and he hardly sat on his hands when things needed to be done. Hers seems like, instead, an attempt at plausible deniability to maintain her image--- so long as it's Meredith and Orsino everyone hates and fears, Elthina remains on top no matter who loses (which is sort of like an overview of the Chantry setting the mages and Templars at each other's throats and then watching as they rip each other to shreds while it piously shakes it's collective head over the issue).

[quote]Jamie_edmo wrote...

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

On topic- I think Anders was right to an extent. He certainly had the right target for everyone, not just the mages. The only problem I've consistantly had with the Chantry exploding is the collateral damage from building fallout, and possible uninvolved or tertiarially involved persons in the Chantry itself. 
[/quote]

And with that, sympathy for mages from civilians (or whatever the people who arent templars or mages are called) is flushed down the toilet, and now its an uphill struggle for the mages to gain support for something that they should have (freedom) because of somebody that acted on their own

[/quote]

Unfortunately, yes. Which is why the target is right (the Chantry is definitely at fault) but the expression is... not. Even if he wanted to destroy the building I could use the same magic/tech shown and come up with a better, less damaging way right now--- sink it into the ground by setting charges beneath the Chantry in the tunnels that run under the city that take out the load bearing rock formations.


[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

To
be fair the mages were always in for an uphill struggle. They're
fighting generations of superstition and fear as well as the image of
Templars as holy knights.[/quote]
I wouldn't call it superstition, when the dangers are quite real...[/quote]

Yeah, I have to agree. Superstition is more for the 'hated by the Maker' part of the Orlesian Chantry's schtick than the real dangers magic poses. Melting people's faces off is a bit more of an immediate risk from an angry mage than somehow drawing down the wrath of the Maker by letting perfectly reasonable mages live in town. I'm all for humane vigilance, secularized Templars and a modified circle system--- but it's not really doing anyone any credit if people start thinking all fears about magic/mages are irrational. Magic is a power on a scale akin to a natural disaster in a bottle, and as this kind of power it commands a certain amount of respect and caution at all times.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Jamie_edmo wrote...

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...

On
topic- I think Anders was right to an extent. He certainly had the
right target for everyone, not just the mages. The only problem I've
consistantly had with the Chantry exploding is the collateral damage
from building fallout, and possible uninvolved or tertiarially involved
persons in the Chantry itself. 
[/quote]

And with that,
sympathy for mages from civilians (or whatever the people who arent
templars or mages are called) is flushed down the toilet, and now its an
uphill struggle for the mages to gain support for something that they
should have (freedom) because of somebody that acted on their own

[/quote]

I like to rationalize it as Anders deliberately made the bomb so that it
would suck the Chantry up and propel it with such force that it lands
outside the city.


Of course, that's primarily wishful thinking.[/quote]

I wish. I just can't recconcile that with his statement about being willing to kill anyone to see the completion of his work.

[quote]Jamie_edmo wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair.[/quote]

Is taking young children from their parents and locking them up in a tower full of strangers fair?

[/quote]

Try thinking of it this way. You know how petty children are? Now imagine normal children with non-removable automatic weapons and flamethrowers loose with few people able to combat them should they get in a mood. That's only a small fraction of what a mage child could get up to. Certainly they should be able to visit their families, but it really is safer for them and everyone else if they're at least watched by other mages-- if not other mages and Templars.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...
As
scary as it may sound, I agree with Rifneno on leaning towards malice.
Either on Elthina's part or on someone who had authority over her and
could countermand her requests to have Meredith removed. Of course,
given the Codex and what we know about Chantry organization, she should
have had the authority to have Meredith removed or executed. That she
did not speaks very ill of Elthina. 
[/quote]

You can
challenge Elthina on this in the Faith ques with Sebastian. Hawke can
say that she outright supports the templars. She counters by saying that
she supports peace and that neither Meredith nor Orsino want that... but then that just means she acknowledges that Meredith is bonkers.

And she knows Meredith obeys her authority (and the templars do) because she orders them around in Act III. 

I
don't think Elthina's malicious. I think she's planning to do exactly
what she did with Petrice: let the mages kill Meredith if it comes to
it, and then reign them in with promises of increased freedom after.
[/quote]

As I indicated above, I don't think she supports peace as much as I get the feeling she supports "Elthina retaining her comfy position and the love of the people". Sure, she may have even fooled herself, but her actions aren't the actions of someone who loves peace.

Far as Ordering Meredith around-- I only saw Elthina do that in public and I find that suspect. It becomes like the importance of Irving's Office in the mage origin in DAO as far as how much Greagoir lets his hair down. Elthina may have felt safer chastizing Meredith in public for a variety of reasons-- not the least of which is that it keeps her image intact with the people.

And I'd say what you just described is no less malicious for being hands-off.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They didn't turn on her when she
called the Annulment. They turned on her when she declared they had all
been swayed by blood mages.[/quote]

Actually, if you side with them, they defy her twice during the Rite. First, to spare the mages pleading for mercy despite her objections, and finally when Cullen challenges Meredith's authority over the matter of the Champion. Only after Cullen has told her no with the men lined up behind him does she start screaming about bloodmagic having influenced them.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:44 .

[DRTJR]

I think if Elthina tried to remove Meredith in act three, Meredith would have killed Elthina, the the Templars and Mages would have Fought against Meredith and the mages might have gotten more freedoms and the Divine would have called an exalted match against Kirkwall destroying the entire city.

[TEWR]

DRTJR wrote...

I think if Elthina tried to remove Meredith in act three, Meredith would have killed Elthina, the the Templars and Mages would have Fought against Meredith and the mages might have gotten more freedoms and the Divine would have called an exalted match against Kirkwall destroying the entire city.

Meredith killing Elthina if Elthina tried to move against her is something I thought up a few weeks ago as well. She would've probably said she (Elthina) was under the influence of blood mages and in her mind said she (Meredith) "gave her friend a mercy killing".


which would've been interesting, as that would make her the equivalent of an Angel of Death, even if it was induced by the idol

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .

[DRTJR]

If the situation went on longer then Meredith would have made herself Vicount killed Elthina and declare the rite of Anulment on the circle for using blood magic to influence Elthina. Maybe Elthina knew how far Meredith had sunk and helped Anders if you didn't pulling a Thanos Gambit?

[Marduksdragon]

I think that would be an interesting twist, but I think it gives Elthina way too much credit.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:15 .

[DRTJR]

That explanation makes sence since you need to distract Ethina if you go along with anders' plan. Anders propbibly did the quest by himself then was caught by Elthina and She let he carry on.

[PrinceLionheart]

Rifneno wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I honestly don't see the point in trying to defend Ander's actions, or at least the ethics behind it, when even he admits it was a horrible crime.

And Aveline blames herself for "cruelly" killing her husband.

Somehow I don't see how a mercy killing and bombing a building or on the same scale.

Jamie_edmo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair.

Is taking young children from their parents and locking them up in a tower full of strangers fair?

If it prevents events like what happened at Redcliffe from happening sure why not. Say what you will about the Chantry and the Circle, but they are in fact correct in the assertion that mages can be threats to those around them, even if they're intentions are good like Connor's.

That's not to say that the circles are perfect. IMO, they can do a better job at being less hostile towards mages and isolating themselves from their families.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[TEWR]

DRTJR wrote...

If the situation went on longer then Meredith would have made herself Vicount killed Elthina and declare the rite of Anulment on the circle for using blood magic to influence Elthina. Maybe Elthina knew how far Meredith had sunk and helped Anders if you didn't pulling a Thanos Gambit?

Hah once again that's something I thought up a while back. Great minds think alike, and are all on these forums .

It's honestly the only way I can like Elthina's character. If she knew that Meredith couldn't be stopped by any normal means, she told herself that the only way she could be stopped is if she (Elthina) was removed from the scene. So she made sure that she stayed in Kirkwall. Maybe she even knew Anders was plotting something (he kinda did give off a vibe of "Hey Grand Cleric, don't mind me I'm just acting suspicious). As much power as Elthina had, Meredith's going cuckoo for cocoa puffs would've made any action taken worthless.

It doesn't excuse Elthina for letting Meredith go as far as she did, but it does make up for her actions somewhat.

[Crow_22]

Mk, I'ma direct my responses to the very first question. Sir, you are ignorant to human nature and wants if you think religion was the cause of Anders killing of Chantry members (Who mind you for the most part) had no part in the execution and/or persecution of the mages within Kirikwall that the Templars were doing. The Grand Cleric was lax, that is certain. She only gave Meridith power when she didn't do anything, this is true. However, Meridith is a person scarred by mages, she's seen the worst of magic and therefore condones all mages as enemies to the Chantry, the only thing that does stop her (up untill she goes nuts) is the fact the Grand Cleric saw no corruption and there was not for the most part, any.

Saying that stuff you did about religion is wrong. Why not give people hope? Why not give something for them to fight for? Is that wrong for us to look for a life after death? To have comfort that our loved ones and friends pass from this world and end up in a better one? One without suffering? Ignorence, yes it happens. But you don't have to use religion for people to be 'evil' and 'narrow minded'. Lets take Stalin for example, the madman killed not only thousands of **** Germans, but his own kinsman and fellow countrymen on and off the battlefield!

Anders, yes I agree strongly with his ideas that the Chantry needs to be reformed* if anything, and mages needed to be set free, or given more freedom. I strongly agree with this and would oppose the Chantry trying to stop this. However, this does not justify the killings of innocent people. Do I think it was right for Anders to fight for what he believed? Yes. Do I agree with his methods? No, I do not and oppose them.

Sorry if I do not respond to anyone's comments on my stand on this, I would prefer it if you PM'd me about it and told me you responded, this will help.

[FieryDove]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

If it prevents events like what happened at Redcliffe from happening sure why not. Say what you will about the Chantry and the Circle, but they are in fact correct in the assertion that mages can be threats to those around them, even if they're intentions are good like Connor's.

That's not to say that the circles are perfect. IMO, they can do a better job at being less hostile towards mages and isolating themselves from their families.

Redcliff was the fault of a very stupid and selfish woman, from what we heard she was always that way and remained that way. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like that could ruin things without conner/demon. Nobles/rulers do it all the time.

Mage families are told if they ask about the childen they will be thrown in prison and stripped of any/all rights. Really?

Chantry has to go or accept mages as PEOPLE.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magic IS a curse. A mage will forever be marked by his magic, and living a normal life will be impossible, that is why it is called a curse.

Why does a mage have to be "forever marked"? Why is living a normal life impossible? Magic can be controlled, possession can be resisted, the bigoted opinions of the peasantry can be swayed.

A mage will forever be a amge, he will always have to beware of his skills and of demons, that is why he is "cursed". He cannot simply stop being a mage and live a life like everyone else.

Plaintiff wrote...

No one is claiming that all mages will inevitably become possessed.

The Chantry is. Or at any rate, it allows the common people to think so and makes no effort to correct them.

No the Chantry certainly isn't. The Chantry claims that without proper trainning , a mage would be even more dangerous to everyone around him. And the commoners probably don't even know what demons and possession really are. What the commoners fear is magic itself.

Plaintiff wrote...

The Circles teach that without proper trainning a mage is a danger to everyone, and not just himself.

Except the Circles can only teach that to other mages. They are never given the opportunity to correct the misconceptions of the public.

It is also what the Chantry says.

Plaintiff wrote...

It may be a common misconception that only a mage can become possessed, but that probably stems from the fact that a non-mage can't become possessed through "natural" means, unless the veil is severely torn (though I don't recall an incident even then of a non-mage becoming possessed).

In Origins, the Circle Tower was rife with possessed templars who attacked you on your way up, there's Sophia Dryden as well, although I'm not sure if it possessed her before she died or after. In DA2 we have not only Wilmod, but Lady Harimann. The backstory of Dragon Age: Legends deals with Viscount Khedra of Kaiten being possessed by a Pride Demon. There's probably more.

Of course, don't forget that your entire party falls under the sway of demons when taken into the Fade.

And none of the ones you mentioned were possessed by "natural" (for lack of a better word) means. One of them weren't even possessed...
Blood mages forced a possession on to Wilmod.
The Ferelden Circle veil is in a weakened state when you fight through it. And IIRC the Templars aren't possessed, but mind controlled mostly. I remember that one Templar and a desire demon, but that is it.
Sophia Dryden was either dead when she became possessed, which her rotting form could indicate, or she was possessed by a summoned demon. Again, not a natural possession.
Lady Harimann weren't possessed at all.
Viscount Khedra could easily have been a mage.
And none of your party memebers become possessed, nor is the whole Fade sequence(s) natural by any means.

Plaintiff wrote...

And again, they don't think all mages are evil. They think that all mages are dangerous. Which I'd say is fair

Except the Chantry blames mages for bringing "sin to heaven and doom to all the world". According to the Chant of Light, mages and magic are responsible for pretty much everything bad that ever happened to anyone. Even if they don't explicitly say "mages are evil and should be hated", that sure is the message they're sending.

Uhm.. So all Chrstians think that all women are pure evil, since they brought original sin on us? Please.
Surely the mages are blamed for "original  sin" in Thedas, but that is not the source of the fear of mages, it is rather a byproduct of it. The source of the fear of mages is, quite simply, magic, with abit of demon thrown in the mix for flavor.

[EmperorSahlertz]

FieryDove wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

If it prevents events like what happened at Redcliffe from happening sure why not. Say what you will about the Chantry and the Circle, but they are in fact correct in the assertion that mages can be threats to those around them, even if they're intentions are good like Connor's.

That's not to say that the circles are perfect. IMO, they can do a better job at being less hostile towards mages and isolating themselves from their families.

Redcliff was the fault of a very stupid and selfish woman, from what we heard she was always that way and remained that way. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like that could ruin things without conner/demon. Nobles/rulers do it all the time.

Mage families are told if they ask about the childen they will be thrown in prison and stripped of any/all rights. Really?

Chantry has to go or accept mages as PEOPLE.

Redcliffe was a result of mages not in control of their powers. And I wouldn't trust Anders' line about mages' families, since it is an obvious lie. We know several mages who stay in contact with their families even when sent to the Circle.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 juillet 2011 - 11:18 .

[TEWR]

A mage will forever be a amge, he will always have to beware of his skills and of demons, that is why he is "cursed". He cannot simply stop being a mage and live a life like everyone else.

There's no way to actually know that for certain. The Chantry prohibits magical research. What if there was a way to make a potion that made a mage become a non-mage? The world will never know, as magical research is frowned upon.

Is it unlikely? Sure, as mages are born the way they are through genetics. But at this current point in time in a fantasy universe where things don't work the way they would in real life all the time, we don't really know.

No the Chantry certainly isn't. The Chantry claims that without proper trainning , a mage would be even more dangerous to everyone around him. And the commoners probably don't even know what demons and possession really are. What the commoners fear is magic itself.

So that makes it okay for the Chantry to not use Spirit healers to their full extent as doctors? The closest thing to a better medical field in Thedas are the apothecaries with various balms, which any man and his pet monkey could create if they acquired the recipe. Even then though, balms are not as effective on treating wounds as a Spirit Healer's ability to mend injuries.

I also believe blood magic can be used medicinally, but that's a slippery slope not due to the magic itself (It isn't inherently evil after all), but due to the nature of the mage.

If you could find a mage who wouldn't sacrifice anyone, then he could control the blood flow of a seriously injured person until a spirit healer came along, as that doesn't require any sacrifices to do.

[Rifneno]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I honestly don't see the point in trying to defend Ander's actions, or at least the ethics behind it, when even he admits it was a horrible crime.

And Aveline blames herself for "cruelly" killing her husband.

Somehow I don't see how a mercy killing and bombing a building or on the same scale.

Likely because that wasn't my point. My point was people are too hard on themselves sometimes. If you're condemning Anders because he condemns himself, you better condemn Aveline for sparing her husband a slow agonizing death.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A mage will forever be a amge, he will always have to beware of his skills and of demons, that is why he is "cursed". He cannot simply stop being a mage and live a life like everyone else.

There's no way to actually know that for certain. The Chantry prohibits magical research. What if there was a way to make a potion that made a mage become a non-mage? The world will never know, as magical research is frowned upon.

Is it unlikely? Sure, as mages are born the way they are through genetics. But at this current point in time in a fantasy universe where things don't work the way they would in real life all the time, we don't really know.

That is more close to wishful thinking, than anything else. There is one way to sever a mage from his talents. Rite of Tranquility.  But that will also prevent the mage from living a normal life.
Magical research is not frowned upon, where did you get that? The Circles are all just that, institutes for magical research. What is frowned upon is MEDICAL research because it would include corpses, and the Chantry fears blood magic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No the Chantry certainly isn't. The Chantry claims that without proper trainning , a mage would be even more dangerous to everyone around him. And the commoners probably don't even know what demons and possession really are. What the commoners fear is magic itself.

So that makes it okay for the Chantry to not use Spirit healers to their full extent as doctors? The closest thing to a better medical field in Thedas are the apothecaries with various balms, which any man and his pet monkey could create if they acquired the recipe. Even then though, balms are not as effective on treating wounds as a Spirit Healer's ability to mend injuries.

I also believe blood magic can be used medicinally, but that's a slippery slope not due to the magic itself (It isn't inherently evil after all), but due to the nature of the mage.

If you could find a mage who wouldn't sacrifice anyone, then he could control the blood flow of a seriously injured person until a spirit healer came along, as that doesn't require any sacrifices to do.

How do you know that the Chantry doesn't make use of all the mage healers in the Circles?
First of all: Mages are usually confined to the Circles. For anyone to get use of the healers talents, they would have to travel to the Circle.
Second of all: Creation School is the hardest of the magical schools to learn and master, which would account for the small amount of healers.
Third of all: Spirit Healers are even more rare than the usual healers, and could in some Circles be considered as abomination (at least in Wynne's case).

[FieryDove]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Redcliffe was a result of mages not in control of their powers. And I wouldn't trust Anders' line about mages' families, since it is an obvious lie. We know several mages who stay in contact with their families even when sent to the Circle.

If we really want to get into it, Logain caused it. If Eamon hadn't been poisoned Conner would not be desperate to try and save his father. It wasn't Conner's fault he wasn't trained or told to resist demons. Mages do need training when young, but not be locked up like lepers or made tranquil if they disagree with a templar. Its supposed to be against the law to tranquil harrowed mages after all. So much for that.

About mages/families, we saw plenty of proof. Wynne/her son, Ella. Maybe some are allowed to remain in contact, ferelden was more...agreeable than other circles. (Well before Uldred got stupid with Logain's promise).

[berelinde]

FieryDove wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Redcliffe was a result of mages not in control of their powers. And I wouldn't trust Anders' line about mages' families, since it is an obvious lie. We know several mages who stay in contact with their families even when sent to the Circle.

If we really want to get into it, Logain caused it. If Eamon hadn't been poisoned Conner would not be desperate to try and save his father. It wasn't Conner's fault he wasn't trained or told to resist demons. Mages do need training when young, but not be locked up like lepers or made tranquil if they disagree with a templar. Its supposed to be against the law to tranquil harrowed mages after all. So much for that.

About mages/families, we saw plenty of proof. Wynne/her son, Ella. Maybe some are allowed to remain in contact, ferelden was more...agreeable than other circles. (Well before Uldred got stupid with Logain's promise).

Redcliffe was the result of a mother not wanting to lose her only child to the Circle. That was the reason Jowan was there. Yes, he made a lot of bad decisions regarding Connor's curriculum, but Jowan is an expert at bad decisions. If the Circle really allowed contact between mages and their families, Isolde would not needed to conceal Connor's abilities.

Plus, there's Wynne and her son, Ella, that woman in Lowtown who is about to be killed by templars just for offering a meal to her cousin. And the Warden! Mage!Warden doesn't even remember her family. Jowan, too, come to think of it. As for Anders, he doesn't even get to keep the name he was given at birth, let alone have access to his family. The DeLauncets tell Hawke that they have not seen Emile since he went to the circle at age 6. Sure, they are lying and have seen him after his escape from the circle, but that was the first time they had seen him in 20 years. And Huon, too. Nyssa had not seen him since he was sent to the Circle 10 years before. Ferelden and the Free Marches are full of families who are denied access to their mage children. So sure, believe Anders is lying if you want, but his statement is backed by the experiences of dozens of characters we've met across two games.

As for Bethany, yes, she is allowed to write home, but she is the sister of the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. After Meredith. There are bound to be some exceptions where she is concerned. And then there's the meta-game reason. Hawke is the hero of this story.

[esper]

berelinde wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Redcliffe was a result of mages not in control of their powers. And I wouldn't trust Anders' line about mages' families, since it is an obvious lie. We know several mages who stay in contact with their families even when sent to the Circle.

If we really want to get into it, Logain caused it. If Eamon hadn't been poisoned Conner would not be desperate to try and save his father. It wasn't Conner's fault he wasn't trained or told to resist demons. Mages do need training when young, but not be locked up like lepers or made tranquil if they disagree with a templar. Its supposed to be against the law to tranquil harrowed mages after all. So much for that.

About mages/families, we saw plenty of proof. Wynne/her son, Ella. Maybe some are allowed to remain in contact, ferelden was more...agreeable than other circles. (Well before Uldred got stupid with Logain's promise).

Redcliffe was the result of a mother not wanting to lose her only child to the Circle. That was the reason Jowan was there. Yes, he made a lot of bad decisions regarding Connor's curriculum, but Jowan is an expert at bad decisions. If the Circle really allowed contact between mages and their families, Isolde would not needed to conceal Connor's abilities.

Plus, there's Wynne and her son, Ella, that woman in Lowtown who is about to be killed by templars just for offering a meal to her cousin. And the Warden! Mage!Warden doesn't even remember her family. Jowan, too, come to think of it. As for Anders, he doesn't even get to keep the name he was given at birth, let alone have access to his family. The DeLauncets tell Hawke that they have not seen Emile since he went to the circle at age 6. Sure, they are lying and have seen him after his escape from the circle, but that was the first time they had seen him in 20 years. And Huon, too. Nyssa had not seen him since he was sent to the Circle 10 years before. Ferelden and the Free Marches are full of families who are denied access to their mage children. So sure, believe Anders is lying if you want, but his statement is backed by the experiences of dozens of characters we've met across two games.

As for Bethany, yes, she is allowed to write home, but she is the sister of the second most powerful person in Kirkwall. After Meredith. There are bound to be some exceptions where she is concerned. And then there's the meta-game reason. Hawke is the hero of this story.

We also don't know how Hawke got that letter - It could be Cullen/Trask/Kerran doing Hawke a favour or Hawke could have gotten it through the Mage Underground network which Anders is a part of.

[DPSSOC]

berelinde wrote...
Redcliffe was the result of a mother not wanting to lose her only child to the Circle. That was the reason Jowan was there. Yes, he made a lot of bad decisions regarding Connor's curriculum, but Jowan is an expert at bad decisions. If the Circle really allowed contact between mages and their families, Isolde would not needed to conceal Connor's abilities.

It's not just that Connor would be taken away it's that he'd be stripped of title, he couldn't succeed as Arl of Redcliffe.  Now given what we know about Eamon's meddling with Anora and Cailan how long do you think he'd keep Isolder around if she couldn't produce a viable heir?  Much as I'm sure she loved her son she was also doing it to protect her position and reputation.

berelinde wrote...
Ella, that woman in Lowtown who is about to be killed by templars just for offering a meal to her cousin.

Harbouring a fugitive is a felony, if you were to offer a meal to a fugitive, even if they're family, you could be arrested.  The difference is you might not know a fugitive is a fugitive, Ella knew her cousin was a mage, and knew that she was an apostate because she was outside the Circle.

berelinde wrote...
And the Warden! Mage!Warden doesn't even remember her family. Jowan, too, come to think of it. As for Anders, he doesn't even get to keep the name he was given at birth, let alone have access to his family. The DeLauncets tell Hawke that they have not seen Emile since he went to the circle at age 6. Sure, they are lying and have seen him after his escape from the circle, but that was the first time they had seen him in 20 years. And Huon, too. Nyssa had not seen him since he was sent to the Circle 10 years before.

Now is there any evidence that the people in question made any effort to maintain contact?  We know the Amells were ashamed of the magic in their line, Jowan mentions that his parents hated and feared him, the DeLauncets are Orlesian so they probably have similar views to Isolde on magic (dirty, evil, etc.).

[berelinde]

Or, they could simply have been telling the truth about being taken from their families and bypassed the need for long, increasingly implausible explanations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.

[berelinde]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.

Where is the proof of that? No one is asking you to provide even half of the numerous examples that the opposing point of view has furnished. Simply give one example of a non-Bethany Circle mage who is allowed family visits.