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Anders did the right thing! I was positively surprised.


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#1051
Sinaxi

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.


Hahaha. Way to go on that fallacy. Clearly you are correct because there is no proof to say you are incorrect...oh wait, that's an argument from ignorance. Saying that's a lie makes zero sense anyways, since there are several times in the game you hear about how Mages can't keep in touch with their families...so you are just choosing to ignore the proof out of your own accord.

The fact that people are suggesting that research should be done to "make potions" to turn mages into non-mages is completely mind blowing to me. They were BORN this way, and NO ONE has the right to tell a Mage that their magic is a curse that needs to be cleansed. That is complete and utter BS.

Modifié par Tidra, 17 juillet 2011 - 06:36 .


#1052
dragonflight288

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Until a mage child throws a temper tantrum and lights another kids head on fire. Wynne did that when asked about how she ended up in the Circle.

Granted I'm all for mage rights and reforming the Circle.

#1053
Sinaxi

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Yeah, the kid was also screwing with her and the story was funny. Cause I bet everyone would just love to be locked up in a tower for the rest of their lives if they could conjure the elements and heal people, yeah..SOUNDS LIKE A LIFE! I would also probably be burning Templar's faces off if it meant getting out of prison.

It's a waste of talent, there were hardly even any Mages at Ostagar and yet they are pretty much the primary healers. If Wynne hadn't joined the Grey Wardens, and wasn't so respected, I could only imagine what would have happened to her in somewhere like Kirkwall or Starkhaven if they found out a spirit had basically possessed her. The only reason the Warden even found out is because she collapsed right in front of them. It's not exactly a secret she's eager to share even though she isn't a threat to anyone.

#1054
Ryzaki

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berelinde wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.

Where is the proof of that? No one is asking you to provide even half of the numerous examples that the opposing point of view has furnished. Simply give one example of a non-Bethany Circle mage who is allowed family visits.


Finn supposedly. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

#1055
EmperorSahlertz

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Tidra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.


Hahaha. Way to go on that fallacy. Clearly you are correct because there is no proof to say you are incorrect...oh wait, that's an argument from ignorance. Saying that's a lie makes zero sense anyways, since there are several times in the game you hear about how Mages can't keep in touch with their families...so you are just choosing to ignore the proof out of your own accord.

The fact that people are suggesting that research should be done to "make potions" to turn mages into non-mages is completely mind blowing to me. They were BORN this way, and NO ONE has the right to tell a Mage that their magic is a curse that needs to be cleansed. That is complete and utter BS.

Show me an example of a mage which was actively prevented, by the Circle, to keep contact with their families. We hear about lots of mages who doesn't keep contact with the families, but that isn't because such contact is prevented, it is because such contact is unwanted, from either part.

If a mage doesn't want to be a mage, and a potion was available, it would be his, and his alone, choice wether or not to drink it. However, such a potion does not exist, and the only choice they got, if they don't want magic, is to become tranquil.

#1056
PrinceLionheart

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Rifneno wrote...

Likely because that wasn't my point. My point was people are too hard on themselves sometimes. If you're condemning Anders because he condemns himself, you better condemn Aveline for sparing her husband a slow agonizing death.


That's the thing though, they were no where near on the same scale. The only person who suffered from Aveline's decision was Aveline herself. Ander's intentionally killed innocent people to instigate war. So yes, I have no issues with condemning Anders for his actions.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Until a mage child throws a
temper tantrum and lights another kids head on fire. Wynne did that when
asked about how she ended up in the Circle.

Granted I'm all for mage rights and reforming the Circle.


I agree. I'm for reformation, not abolisment of the Circle. But of course, thanks to Anders that doesn't seem to be an option anymore :P

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 17 juillet 2011 - 07:48 .


#1057
Rifneno

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

That's the thing though, they were no where near on the same scale. The only person who suffered from Aveline's decision was Aveline herself. Ander's intentionally killed innocent people to instigate war. So yes, I have no issues with condemning Anders for his actions.


Completely irrelevant. The basis you used for it was "he admits it was horrible." I'm pointing out that that holds no water. As for the scale... if someone steals a million dollars, it's okay to steal a thousand because it's smaller scale?

#1058
dragonflight288

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Mercy Killing is a controversial topic. Are we ending someone's suffering or are we murdering someone who did nothing wrong? Freedom fighting is also controversial. Is Anders fighting for freedom or for vengeance?

You can have people who support reformation (like me) and you'll have people who support destroying the entire institution of the Chantry. Mages and nonmages both will be on Anders side. Those in favor of reformation and mages who are more neutral will have to pick a side. Peace will no longer be an option. But if they win, they'll have won rights and freedoms that the Chantry would never willingly allow a mage to have because it takes power away from the powers that be.

And since the Templars have also rebelled, you will see thousands of soldiers addicted to lyrium suddenly cut off from their main supply of lyrium. They will be looting, raping, pillaging across all of Thedas to destroy the mages and seeking stores of lyrium. Should the war last long enough, you will see more and more people supporting mages because desperate templars will commit greater and greater atrocities.

Only now, the consequences won't be limited to mages.

#1059
Nerevar-as

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I´m expecting the Qunari to take advantage of the opening and launch another invasion. Flemeth is also likely to have plans for the conflict. I hope the end to the templar-mage war isn´t a cop out for one of these reasons.

#1060
dragonflight288

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If I were leading the Qunari, I would launch an invasion. Fenris states that the Qunari warring with Tevinter is mainly Tevinter's fault. The Imperium is constantly attacking Seherron whereas the Qunari aren't invading the mainland yet. That means they must have a very large force ready to invade because they'll lose less people in defense than Tevinter will in offense.

#1061
Harid

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Tactically, it's wiser to attack once both forces are spent on attacking each other, low on morale and supplies, with the people tired of the overall conflict, rather than attacking when both forces are still relatively powerful, if you want the shortest, fastest war possible.

And they still have the Tevinters to worry about, who aren't part of this struggle, so it would make little sense attacking until that threat is eliminated.

I still wholeheartedly expect the Qunari to attack, though, Bioware has to make Hawke awesome by uniting Thedas against the Qunari threat!

It's not as if they are going to be able to create a scenario where both the mages could be crushed and the mages can be supported, as they would create two completely separate polical climates, and by proxy two entriely different Thedases.

Modifié par Harid, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .


#1062
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tidra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What truth? It is a lie that mages aren't allowed to keep contact with their families. They are allowed. That some families does not keep contact with their mage child, is another matter.


Hahaha. Way to go on that fallacy. Clearly you are correct because there is no proof to say you are incorrect...oh wait, that's an argument from ignorance. Saying that's a lie makes zero sense anyways, since there are several times in the game you hear about how Mages can't keep in touch with their families...so you are just choosing to ignore the proof out of your own accord.

The fact that people are suggesting that research should be done to "make potions" to turn mages into non-mages is completely mind blowing to me. They were BORN this way, and NO ONE has the right to tell a Mage that their magic is a curse that needs to be cleansed. That is complete and utter BS.

Show me an example of a mage which was actively prevented, by the Circle, to keep contact with their families. We hear about lots of mages who doesn't keep contact with the families, but that isn't because such contact is prevented, it is because such contact is unwanted, from either part.

If a mage doesn't want to be a mage, and a potion was available, it would be his, and his alone, choice wether or not to drink it. However, such a potion does not exist, and the only choice they got, if they don't want magic, is to become tranquil.




Huon. Unless you're going to argue that his wife isn't his family.

#1063
Plaintiff

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A mage will forever be a amge, he will always have to beware of his skills and of demons, that is why he is "cursed". He cannot simply stop being a mage and live a life like everyone else.

The mentally ill have to beware of fits or loss of memory, epileptics have to beware, the disabled have to beware, people with cancer have to beware, people with severe allergies have to beware. They have medications and techniques that allow them to live normally. Mages do too. For ****'s sake, the whole point of the goddamn Harrowing is to demonstrate that a mage is capable of resisting powerful demons, and they don't even get trained in it beforehand. Imagine if they did.

Blood mages forced a possession on to Wilmod.
The Ferelden Circle veil is in a weakened state when you fight through it. And IIRC the Templars aren't possessed, but mind controlled mostly. I remember that one Templar and a desire demon, but that is it.
Sophia Dryden was either dead when she became possessed, which her rotting form could indicate, or she was possessed by a summoned demon. Again, not a natural possession.
Lady Harimann weren't possessed at all.
Viscount Khedra could easily have been a mage.
And none of your party memebers become possessed, nor is the whole Fade sequence(s) natural by any means.

So what? He counts. Why does possession have to be "natural"? Individuals can resist forced possession, Keran did. The fact that Wilmod was unable to proves that non-mages are vulnerable. Since demons force themselves on humans who are in a weak emotional state, would that not mean that all possession is "unnatural"?
You said you were unaware of any non-mage possession occuring even while the veil was in a weakened state. I proved you wrong. Jesus Christ man, it's right there in your post, do try to keep up. Where do you draw the line between "possession" and "mind control"? Either way, non-mages are susceptible to demonic influences. If you can't resist mind-control, odds are you can't resist possession. This is just commonsense.
Sure, Viscount Khedra could be a mage, except with no evidence that he is, one has to assume he isn't by default. Mages can't inherit titles, so how did he manage to hold on to his nobility if he was one?

Uhm.. So all Chrstians think that all women are pure evil, since they brought original sin on us? Please.
Surely the mages are blamed for "original sin" in Thedas, but that is not the source of the fear of mages, it is rather a byproduct of it. The source of the fear of mages is, quite simply, magic, with abit of demon thrown in the mix for flavor.

Speaking as a former practising Christian, I can tell you right now that yes, there is a lot of blaming and shaming of females in Christianity. No, not everyone does it, but it's there and the inferiority of women compared to men is supported throughout scripture, and yes, it's all traced back to Eve, who is seen as biblical evidence that women are weaker and more susceptible to sin, and that they will corrupt men.

The fact that mages would be feared regardless does not excuse the Chantry's bull**** and lies.

Show me an example of a mage which was actively prevented, by the Circle, to keep contact with their families. We hear about lots of mages who doesn't keep contact with the families, but that isn't because such contact is prevented, it is because such contact is unwanted, from either part.

Gee, um, how about, oh, I dunno, Ella? You know, the girl who had to escape through the dungeons because nobody had ever even told her mother where she was? The one who got cornered by a sadistic templar rapist? If she was allowed to visit, or even just to write a ****ing letter, there would've been no need for her to try and escape through the secret passage.

Nyssa tells Hawke that she had no word from Huon for ten ****ing years, and the De Launcets hadn't seen their now grown-up son since he was taken away at the age of six. And don't try to spin some bull about how they never tried to make contact themselves. If they were willing to violate the law and help their son to escape Kirkwall, you can damn well bet they would've visited him if it was ****ing allowed.

In fact, why restrict it to family members? Karl was tranquiled just for writing letters to a friend. In fact, he had to send them secretly in the first place because the templars intercept and tamper with mail.

If you need it to be explicitly stated that the Circlesforbid contact with the outside world than you obviously weren't paying attention to the game. Most mages, most people in general would not resort to such desperate and dangerous methods if they had other options.

#1064
DPSSOC

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Plaintiff wrote...
In fact, why restrict it to family members? Karl was tranquiled just for writing letters to a friend. In fact, he had to send them secretly in the first place because the templars intercept and tamper with mail.


Not disagreeing with you but technically Karl was tranquilled for writing letters to a friend in order to plan an escape.  Unless they were using an elaborate code that the Templars cracked this wasn't just a; hello, how's the family, how are your tomatoes coming kind of letter.

#1065
dragonflight288

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But if you loot the Knight-Lieutenant's body, it's revealed that Alrik ordered the tranquilizing of Karl, and told them not to inform Meredith. It was illegal.

#1066
TEWR

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while we're talking about the Chantry, in Act 3 if you talk to an elven woman (Visell?) she says that Chantry shemlen have been coming by trying to convert them and making poorly veiled threats if the elves didn't convert. If you choose the diplomatic option that is.


Just thought I'd mention that, as I can't really bring up any new information regarding the Circles, Mages, and Templars right now because it's already been brought up. Carry on.

#1067
DPSSOC

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dragonflight288 wrote...

But if you loot the Knight-Lieutenant's body, it's revealed that Alrik ordered the tranquilizing of Karl, and told them not to inform Meredith. It was illegal.


Yeah it's illegal but it's not like he was doing it because Karl was trying to send an innocent letter was my point.

#1068
dragonflight288

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So we have a mage trying to become an apostate, which is illegal, and templars committing an illegal tranquilizing. Both are breaking the law.

I suppose it comes down to who is morally correct. Is Karl right in thinking he can escape with Anders help, or are mages too dangerous to be free. My personal opinion is with Karl. He wrote a letter saying the Circle sucked and vaguely mentioned he was planning an escape. Because of this, he practically has his soul taken away and all emotions stripped from him.

What he did was worth solitary confinement by chantry law as he had committed no crime at that point. He hadn't attempted to escape at the time of being made tranquil. The punishment far exceeded the supposed crime.

#1069
TEWR

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I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

#1070
dragonflight288

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A tranquil can only say they are content because they lack the emotions to be anything else. Karl momentarily regained his emotions and now knew exactly what it's like to be an empty shell. I would hate it too.

#1071
Rifneno

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Harid wrote...

Tactically, it's wiser to attack once both forces are spent on attacking each other, low on morale and supplies, with the people tired of the overall conflict, rather than attacking when both forces are still relatively powerful, if you want the shortest, fastest war possible.


Tactically, yes, that is very true. But you have to remember the Qunari's arrogance. Look at how the Arishok talks about Kirkwall. "I don't fear the whole of them together." was his outright dismissal at the news of the Chantry's (well, Petrice's, but he doesn't know she's a fringe element and doesn't really care) involvement in the anti-qunari hate. Considering the military might of the templars, which are for all intents and purposes the Chantry's sword arm, thinking they're no big deal is... I believe the old school phrase is, "pride before a fall." It's possible he was just trying to save face to Hawke by pretending it didn't faze him, but I think he really is that arrogant. Of course, it's not just limited to the Arishok. I believe Sten also made some remark that there's no way they could have captured him unless he surrendered. Unarmed and presumably unarmored, he thought it was a given that he could take down whatever the local authorities threw at him.

#1072
Sinuphro

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SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace. Disinformation and lies are evils that goes hand in hand with religion. There is no empirical evidence that the maker is real, therefore brainwashing and manipulating children and weak minded grown ups into this web of lies is evil in nature.

Anders blew up the chantry, and it was rightious in every way. There are no innocents, the world is what it is based on our actions aswell as our inactions. Allowing the chantry to spread fairytales is a crime, and falling for them is also a crime. So all who died in the explosion had it comming.

When Anders did what he did i smiled from ear to ear. Such a blow to superstition is a great victory for Thedas`s future. If this future first needs to be cleansed in a tidal wave of blood to remove the parasites that believes in the maker, then it is totally fine. There must be sacrifices before things can get better.

Just as the body first weakens from disease, it will then be strengthened against it after. The disease in this matter being the "maker"

HAIL ANDERS!


i agree. that stupid woman deserved it. then again that scenario could had been avoided but the makers of the game took away that option from us!

#1073
Shadow Raziel

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RazorrX wrote...

Justice is no longer Justice. Anders was full of hate and contempt when he joined with Justice. At that point justice changed into vengence. The spirit of Justice basically died in a sense. Anders corrupted a good spirit with his hate/rage to the point that it is now a demon.

Anders was wrong, he was a terrorist, and I killed him for it. (Please note, I would have killed him the moment I found out he was an abomination, thus saving everyone in the chantry but Bioware did not give me that option).

As much as I feel for the mages (my mage play through in DA:O was one of my favorites) I agree that Magic is dangerous, mages are dangerous and need oversight. They do not need Draconian Prison Camps, but they do need oversight.

And you know what the worse part is? Anders PROVES that Tempars are needed more by what he does than anything else.

The system needs to be changed, not removed. Templars need more oversight, they have way too much authority and free reign in how they deal with mages. But mages are a danger and thus need to be closely monitored.


Well said. People are framing this wrong, Justice did not drive Anders to do what he did. Anders need for Vengeance twisted justice into vengeance. It sets up a huge dilemma for the next game. All  Anders succeeded in doing is reinforcing the stereotype that Mages are inherently dangerous. 

#1074
Rifneno

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Shadow Raziel wrote...

Well said. People are framing this wrong, Justice did not drive Anders to do what he did. Anders need for Vengeance twisted justice into vengeance. It sets up a huge dilemma for the next game. All  Anders succeeded in doing is reinforcing the stereotype that Mages are inherently dangerous. 


You obviously don't remember Awakening very well. Anders had a "let them fend for themselves" attitude toward the mage oppression. He was happy to be free himself. Justice was the "we must avenge! evil-doers must die!" guy. Take Justice along to the Dragonbone Wastes and try to side with the Architect. "We must avenge the fallen!" He'll actually attack the Warden too unless you use a high coercion ability.

Anders only reinforced that stereotype in idiots who judge the whole by a few bad apples. They weren't going to side with the mages regardless.

#1075
Criosdan

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In that matter, I go with Lord Horatio Nelson: Desperate affairs require desperate measures.