1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

[Rifneno]

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

[Sinaxi]

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

People actually have said that? Wow, that's messed up. I mean I understand not condoning suicide necessarily, but the guy is already basically dead...and that was not of his own free will. Killing him was the greatest mercy he could have been shown.

[esper]

Tidra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

People actually have said that? Wow, that's messed up. I mean I understand not condoning suicide necessarily, but the guy is already basically dead...and that was not of his own free will. Killing him was the greatest mercy he could have been shown.

Talk about being blinded by hatred. You have to really want to hate Anders if you miss the place where Karl begs Anders to kill him.

[Sinaxi]

Being made Tranquil is one of the saddest things I think could happen to anyone, in my opinion. Of course they are "content", they have absolutely no real emotions. You take everything from who that person is, sure..they can walk and talk but they aren't even a person anymore. They sit around doing menial tasks that they will never bore of, have absolutely no free will when people order them to do things (Alrik certainly got a kick out of that). Most mages make it clear that they would rather die than be made Tranquil, so I don't get why the Templars don't just kill them...it would be a greater mercy than letting their mind be violated like that. It is just such an affront to a human being, probably the greatest violation out of anything I've seen in the game.

And if a mage requests to be Tranquil, it is either because they have been warped by the Chantry to believe their magic is a curse (that psycho girl in the mage origin story) or because they are consistently being plagued by nightmares of demons that their teachers are not helping them as best they can to combat (and they have been taught by the Templars since day 1 in the circle that the only way this can stop is if they are made Tranquil)

Feyreniel had to go to the Tevinter Imperium, which yes, isn't the greatest place in the world but it is certainly better than giving up when there are alternate routes. In his letter he makes it pretty clear that he is learning a lot and has been very successful at preventing his dreams.
"I owe you more than my life. I owe you my mind and my future."

[Rifneno]

esper wrote...

Talk about being blinded by hatred. You have to really want to hate Anders if you miss the place where Karl begs Anders to kill him.

Their justification was that Karl the zombie was a different 'person' than Karl the man. Like that old dumb joke, "if someone with split personality threatens suicide is it a hostage situation?"

Tidra wrote...

Being made Tranquil is one of the saddest things I think could happen to anyone, in my opinion. Of course they are "content", they have absolutely no real emotions. You take everything from who that person is, sure..they can walk and talk but they aren't even a person anymore. They sit around doing menial tasks that they will never bore of, have absolutely no free will when people order them to do things (Alrik certainly got a kick out of that). Most mages make it clear that they would rather die than be made Tranquil, so I don't get why the Templars don't just kill them...it would be a greater mercy than letting their mind be violated like that. It is just such an affront to a human being, probably the greatest violation out of anything I've seen in the game.

Very well put. Hats off to you. The reason they tranquil them instead of killing them is to control the other mages with fear. They know that's the fate that awaits them if they stand up to their captors' iron fists.

[GavrielKay]

I just re-read the codex on the Rite of Annulment (that's how the codex is spelled) and it says

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable.

So given that, it seems that Meredith may not have been within her rights to call the Annulment of the circle and Anders may not have been convinced that she would do it or that the Templars would obey. The player has ample reason to believe that Meredith would do it out of sheer madness, but Anders grew up in the circle and probably knows the rules better than Hawke or the others. He may have thought to buy some time as Meredith was forced to wait for permission from the Divine.

Just a thought.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:38 .

[Sinaxi]

* Anders: How can you keep standing up for her?
* Sebastian: Who?
* Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric.
* Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise—
* Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands.
* Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done.
* Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth.

This conversation makes me laugh...and since we are talking about Anders blowing up Elthina..hehe.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GavrielKay wrote...

I just re-read the codex on the Rite of Annulment (that's how the codex is spelled) and it says

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable.

So given that, it seems that Meredith may not have been within her rights to call the Annulment of the circle and Anders may not have been convinced that she would do it or that the Templars would obey. The player has ample reason to believe that Meredith would do it out of sheer madness, but Anders grew up in the circle and probably knows the rules better than Hawke or the others. He may have thought to buy some time as Meredith was forced to wait for permission from the Divine.

Just a thought.

DG confirmed that a Knight-Commander would be next in the chain of command for an annulment to be called, in the event of a Grand Cleric dying.

[Ryzaki]

Yup. The Rite of Annullment was perfectly legal.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
DG confirmed that a Knight-Commander would be next in the chain of command for an annulment to be called, in the event of a Grand Cleric dying.

Does Anders know that?  It doesn't seem like it would have happened that way before.  Gregoir didn't just rush off to kill his charges.

I think DG said that as a retcon to make it a more legit choice, personally.

[GavrielKay]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I would think that he does. His entire plan hinges on Meredith initiating the RoA.

Anders could legitimately expect war to break out regardless of Meredith's action once word gets out that a mage killed the Grand Cleric.  He may have expected Meredith to do it anyway, but it wouldn't have to be "legal" for that to be the case.

As far as DG saying it was ok, well, that is meta-gaming.  If it isn't in the game, then it is perfectly natural for my Hawke to consider that Meredith had neither authority nor reason to annul the circle.  Does anyone have an in-game reference that refutes that?

Meredith's stated reason of the destruction of the Chantry is obviously untrue, given the guilty party in that event was sitting right there and she lets Hawke decide his fate.  Blood magic in the circle hasn't gotten any better or worse based on Anders' act, so that isn't a reason.  The only urgency here is crowd control which certainly couldn't be performed while running through the circle slaughtering children. 

Meredith could (and I believe was obligated to) continue to confine the mages until approval for the RoA came down from the Divine.

[Sinaxi]

GavrielKay wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I would think that he does. His entire plan hinges on Meredith initiating the RoA.

Anders could legitimately expect war to break out regardless of Meredith's action once word gets out that a mage killed the Grand Cleric.  He may have expected Meredith to do it anyway, but it wouldn't have to be "legal" for that to be the case.

As far as DG saying it was ok, well, that is meta-gaming.  If it isn't in the game, then it is perfectly natural for my Hawke to consider that Meredith had neither authority nor reason to annul the circle.  Does anyone have an in-game reference that refutes that?

Meredith's stated reason of the destruction of the Chantry is obviously untrue, given the guilty party in that event was sitting right there and she lets Hawke decide his fate.  Blood magic in the circle hasn't gotten any better or worse based on Anders' act, so that isn't a reason.  The only urgency here is crowd control which certainly couldn't be performed while running through the circle slaughtering children. 

Meredith could (and I believe was obligated to) continue to confine the mages until approval for the RoA came down from the Divine.

Yeah, I always thought it was pretty ridiculous how Meredith is like "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL! Oh, hey Hawke can you deal with your friend who actually started this? kthxbai." Like, wtf?

[Bigdoser]

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

Really?  the guy was pretty much begging anders to kill him knowing what being tranquil feels like yet people want to stop him lol wut. Some people on these forums.

[Sabotin]

Bigdoser wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

Really?  the guy was pretty much begging anders to kill him knowing what being tranquil feels like yet people want to stop him lol wut. Some people on these forums.

Last I heard, homicide is morally objectionable? Even assisted suicide is illegal in most countries. And there's no evidence that tranquil suffer, they are in fact content. The guy wanted to die only out of principle.

[GavrielKay]

Sabotin wrote...
Last I heard, homicide is morally objectionable? Even assisted suicide is illegal in most countries. And there's no evidence that tranquil suffer, they are in fact content. The guy wanted to die only out of principle.

It seems fairly clear by his reaction to temporarily having his "self" back that he is utterly horrified by the walking shell of a person that he has become and doesn't want his (one step above) zombie corpse serving the Chantry and the bastards who inflicted that fate on him.  I'd say killing Karl is a mercy.

[Rifneno]

Tidra wrote...

* Anders: How can you keep standing up for her?
* Sebastian: Who?
* Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric.
* Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise—
* Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands.
* Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done.
* Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth.

This conversation makes me laugh...and since we are talking about Anders blowing up Elthina..hehe.

How about the one where Sebastian starts preaching to Varric that he needs to forgive Bartrand? That was awesome. Sebastian may be the biggest hypocrite in gaming history.

Sebastian: You must forgive your brother.
Varric: While you were off playing prince, Bartrand trapped us in the Deep Roads and left us to die.
Sebastian: When you hold onto anger, it colors everything you do.
Sebastian: You escaped the Deep Roads. You built a life without your brother. Do you still want him haunting you?
Varric: Oh, go find some beggars to sing to, will you?

I guess his objection was that Varric has the testicular fortitude to face Bartrand, rather than post a note and hope someone does his dirty work for him?

Ryzaki wrote...

Yup. The Rite of Annullment was perfectly legal.

So was Saddam Hussein's sons killing a woman's family if she put up a fight about being raped.

GavrielKay wrote...

I think DG said that as a retcon to make it a more legit choice, personally.

Seconded. Pretty much this entire game is DG's objection to people not "understanding" the templar's side in DAO.

Tidra wrote...

Yeah, I always thought it was pretty ridiculous how Meredith is like "KILL THEM, KILL THEM ALL! Oh, hey Hawke can you deal with your friend who actually started this? kthxbai." Like, wtf?

I think the explanation was that they didn't want to take the choice out of the player's hands. I wish the dev that decided that hadn't called in sick for the entire rest of the design.

Sabotin wrote...

Last I heard, homicide is morally objectionable? Even assisted suicide is illegal in most countries. And there's no evidence that tranquil suffer, they are in fact content. The guy wanted to die only out of principle.

:lol:

[Sinaxi]

LOL. "No evidence Tranquil suffer"
Oh, so let me guess, you'd have no problem being Tranquil yourself? You want to walk and talk but have absolutely no real connection to the person you were before? Sure, you remember who you were but what do memories matter to someone that has no emotions.. when you feel absolutely nothing for people you used to love, people who used to be your friends.

Of course he wanted to die out of principle, rather than be a walking and talking SHELL of the person he USED to be. It's like taking away a person's very essence, their soul. They still have higher brain functions but are extremely susceptible to what people tell them to do since they don't know any better...do people not remember the Tranquil just sitting around in the Circle of Ferelden tower while it was running rampant with abominations? The guy who knew nothing else but the fact that he had to run his store?

Yes, yes, Tranquil do not suffer guys. They are just walking drones, no problem with that at all!

[TEWR]

seriously I say we let Anders live and bring him to every single Tranquil and have him "Initiate Vengeance Mode! GO!!" and then record what the Tranquil are actually saying. Have them write it down.

[GavrielKay]

It wouldn't be so much a matter of whether the Tranquil are suffering as whether the people they used to be would prefer death over emotionless servitude to the the folks who stole their soul. I can image some number of mages having more fear of death than being Tranquiled, but obviously Karl wasn't one of them.

Our modern living wills are probably the closest idea to this: what would you want your family to choose in the event you were unable to make a rational decision for yourself?

[FieryDove]

Sabotin wrote...

And there's no evidence that tranquil suffer, they are in fact content. The guy wanted to die only out of principle.

They can't be content without emotions. They also scare the common folk. Also I disagree about Karl. He wanted to die to prevent  "being a templar slave" but also because nothing of him would be left...no color, no music, no nothing.

From a codex:
The name is a misnomer, for they are not tranquil at all; rather, they are like inanimate objects that speak. If a table wished to sell you an enchanted penknife, it could pass as one of these people. Their eyes are expressionless, their voices monotone. Incomparable craftsmen they might be, but they are hardly the sort of mages to put ordinary folk at ease.

 

Modifié par FieryDove, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:56 .

[DPSSOC]

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

What?  People...what? 

GavrielKay wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
DG confirmed that a Knight-Commander would be next in the chain of command for an annulment to be called, in the event of a Grand Cleric dying.

Does Anders know that?  It doesn't seem like it would have happened that way before.  Gregoir didn't just rush off to kill his charges.

I think DG said that as a retcon to make it a more legit choice, personally.

Gregoir didn't just rush off because the Grand Cleric of Fereldan was alive and well, in Denerim.  Also he was waiting on reinforcements.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
Gregoir didn't just rush off because the Grand Cleric of Fereldan was alive and well, in Denerim.  Also he was waiting on reinforcements.

Yes, he was waiting on permission from afar.  Much like Meredith should have done.  She'd already sent word to the Divine asking permission, she should have waited.

I think something as drastic as the RoA should always require approval from someone at least a bit removed from the action.  This circle doesn't even have demons running rampant and the First Enchanter held prisoner by an abomination like the one in Ferelden. 

Meredith doesn't even try to convince Hawke that there is no hope of finding innocent mages.  She says the crowd will demand blood and then wants Hawke to help give it to them.  Ridiculous.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:29 .

[Sinaxi]

Meredith was nuts even before she got the idol. When you first get off the boat people are like "Meredith's the REAL power in Kirkwall.." DUN. DUN. DUN.

and the mages being turned Tranquil was happening before she got the idol too. Pretty much she's just a fear-mongering lunatic.