1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

Mages get turned Tranquil Thedas-wide, some by choice. . .if Meredith was truly  a fear mongering lunatic she would favored Alrik's Tranquil solution, which she did not. What the heck are you talking about?

This was one of the many problems with that stupid idol anyway.

Modifié par Harid, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:47 .

[DPSSOC]

GavrielKay wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Gregoir didn't just rush off because the Grand Cleric of Fereldan was alive and well, in Denerim.  Also he was waiting on reinforcements.

Yes, he was waiting on permission from afar.  Much like Meredith should have done.  She'd already sent word to the Divine asking permission, she should have waited.

I think something as drastic as the RoA should always require approval from someone at least a bit removed from the action.

And that's probably the case in most Andrastian nations.  The problem with the Free Marches is that it's an informal coalition of independent city-states.  The authority of one does not extend to another so Kirkwall, Tantervale, and Starkhaven (at least) require their own Grand Cleric.  I agree that a decentralized Grand Cleric for the entire Free Marches would be a better system, but the nature of Marcher behaviour may be what dooms it.

GavrielKay wrote...
This circle doesn't even have demons running rampant and the First Enchanter held prisoner by an abomination like the one in Ferelden. 

Meredith doesn't even try to convince Hawke that there is no hope of finding innocent mages.  She says the crowd will demand blood and then wants Hawke to help give it to them.  Ridiculous.

Which brings us to two major advantages that the Fereldan Circle had over Kirkwall.

1) The relationship between the Knight Commander and First Enchanter.  While Gregoir and Irving may not always see eye to eye it's made clear that they do work together to run the Circle and that they do have a measure of respect, perhaps even fondness given Gregoir's response to Irving's safe return, for one another.  I get the distinct impression that Meredith simply bowls over Orsino making his position almost entirely symbollic.  He has no real power and he can't so much as influence Meredith's decisions.

and 2) Gregoir wasn't bat s*** insane and didn't get a hold of a magic idol that made him even more bat s*** insanerer.

[FieryDove]

Harid wrote...

Mages get turned Tranquil Thedas-wide, some by choice. . .if Meredith was truly  a fear mongering lunatic she would favored Alrik's Tranquil solution, which she did not. What the heck are you talking about?

Think about it.

She would lose her power if she had nothing to do.

[Harid]

FieryDove wrote...

Harid wrote...

Mages get turned Tranquil Thedas-wide, some by choice. . .if Meredith was truly  a fear mongering lunatic she would favored Alrik's Tranquil solution, which she did not. What the heck are you talking about?

Think about it.

She would lose her power if she had nothing to do.

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

Modifié par Harid, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:53 .

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

In this case, the fear mongering lunatic asks for permission to kill all the mages.  She's not interested in having them alive as soulless husks.  That's about all that can be said for her.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

her paranoia and fear-mongering were apparent and growing well before she laid eyes on the idol.


edit: i want to expand on that ser alrik thing, because it's the thing that makes meredith the most repulsive to me. she pays good lip service to wanting to help mages but seeing no other way beyond her methods...

...but those methods include having direct knowledge of a man in her employ whose proposed solution is to tranquil every mage in thedas, and not immediately firing the bastard. he'd already performed a rite on at least one harrowed mage we know of, and anders implies there are far more. meredith's inaction is inexcusable.

Modifié par ademska, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:20 .

[Sinaxi]

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

her paranoia and fear-mongering were apparent and growing well before she laid eyes on the idol.


edit: i want to expand on that ser alrik thing, because it's the thing that makes meredith the most repulsive to me. she pays good lip service to wanting to help mages but seeing no other way beyond her methods...

...but those methods include having direct knowledge of a man in her employ whose proposed solution is to tranquil every mage in thedas, and not immediately firing the bastard. he'd already performed a rite on at least one harrowed mage we know of, and anders implies there are far more. meredith's inaction is inexcusable.

^^^ This is why I called her a fear-mongering lunatic. (thx for replying since now I don't need to write out the post ) Not because Mages aren't turned Tranquil in Thedas every day as you said, but because she was turning Mages Tranquil who passed their Harrowing's, and long before she ever got the idol. She's practically a tyrant in Kirkwall, everyone knows she has the most power, even though there's a Viscount, and no one is willing to challenge her. After the Viscount's death she just took that as her opportunity to take control of the city, and for what? 3 years? no one has the guts to do anything about it.

Her ONE "good" action of not approving Alrik's plan does NOT invalidate absolutely everything else she did, because she was still turning practically every mage Tranquil who pissed her off. Or executing the ones that tried to escape. So yeah, she was ALREADY crazy before she got the idol, and she is a fear-mongering lunatic. My point stands.

[Sabotin]

FieryDove wrote...

Sabotin wrote...

And there's no evidence that tranquil suffer, they are in fact content. The guy wanted to die only out of principle.

They can't be content without emotions. They also scare the common folk. Also I disagree about Karl. He wanted to die to prevent  "being a templar slave" but also because nothing of him would be left...no color, no music, no nothing.

From a codex:
The name is a misnomer, for they are not tranquil at all; rather, they are like inanimate objects that speak. If a table wished to sell you an enchanted penknife, it could pass as one of these people. Their eyes are expressionless, their voices monotone. Incomparable craftsmen they might be, but they are hardly the sort of mages to put ordinary folk at ease.

 

And all the others, I don't wanna make a quote tree...

Yes, I undderstand this point. What I was trying to portray is, that tranquil don't have a problem being tranquil when they are tranquil. I know it sounds silly, but with this we ventura a bit into philosophy. For example, would you say a deaf born person is suffering because he can't hear (let's put social ramifications aside and concentrate on the condition)? From the tranquil's point of view he never had emotions/magic/etc. We can only percieve his suffering by being outside observers.

About Karl's reaction and request for death - for a moment, when Anders comes close to him, he becomes the outside observer momentarily. He remembers everything he had and he lost and will loose again - his entire self. He is terrified of it, of loosing everything without any choice in the matter. But still, Anders has no right to take his life, it is murder plain and simple. I don't know what to compare this situation to... maybe killing a person suffering from multiple personality disorder whose one personality asks you to kill him because his alter ego is taking over? Yeah, I know it's a stretch, but I'm just trying to bring the point across, that a person's life is for some people inherently worth more than their emotional state. So, there's no need to be amazed when someone finds it objectionable that Anders stabs Karl.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning the Chantry's actions of making mages tranquil - the practice is still very very questionable and in my opinion useless and terrible, too. Maybe a sentence worse than death for a mage. And let me stress that I mean the process of making someone tranquil, not the state of being tranquil. After all, there's people both in imaginary worlds and real life that strive towards being robot-like emotionally as an ideal: Jedi are a good example from sci-fi, or if you watched any CSI series the issue is often stressed in those.

[GavrielKay]

Sabotin wrote...

Yeah, I know it's a stretch, but I'm just trying to bring the point across, that a person's life is for some people inherently worth more than their emotional state. So, there's no need to be amazed when someone finds it objectionable that Anders stabs Karl.

But life has to be something more than the ability to walk around and follow orders.  If you have no desire, concern, fear, love, hope...  what exactly is the point?  It's like being in a permanent coma except you're still able to be ordered around and make money for the people who put you in the coma.  That may fit the dictionary definition of life, but it isn't something most people would consider living.

[Harid]

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

Karl was tranquiled without her consent, wasn't that argued not even a page ago?

Her keeping Alrik just shows she's incompetant, it doesn't prove she's a fear mongerer, either.

And you can't take anything Anders says seriously.  He's crazy.  He made **** up all of the time that directly conflict things we've seen with our own eyes, like conditions in the Fereldan Circle.  Hell, he made **** up prior to binding together with Justice.

Modifié par Harid, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:42 .

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

Karl was tranquiled without her consent, wasn't that argued not even a page ago?

Her keeping Alrik just shows she's incompetant, it doesn't prove she's a fear mongerer, either.

And you can't take anything Anders says seriously.  He's crazy.  He made **** up all of the time that directly conflict things we've seen with our own eyes, like conditions in the Fereldan Circle.

And yet I see people constantly using him as the true source of how to learn blood magic, saying that because he said it you have to deal with demons to Fenris it must be true.

If people are going to say that we can't trust anything and everything Anders says in DA2, then by God they better apply that to anything and everything he says and not be so selective.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

Karl was tranquiled without her consent, wasn't that argued not even a page ago?

Her keeping Alrik just shows she's incompetant, it doesn't prove she's a fear mongerer, either.

And you can't take anything Anders says seriously.  He's crazy.  He made **** up all of the time that directly conflict things we've seen with our own eyes, like conditions in the Fereldan Circle.

And yet I see people constantly using him as the true source of how to learn blood magic, saying that because he said it you have to deal with demons to Fenris it must be true.

If people are going to say that we can't trust anything and everything Anders says in DA2, then by God they better apply that to anything and everything he says and not be so selective.

You can't tie me to a point I never made, I don't know what in hell you are talking about.

[TEWR]

I never said you specifically talked about Anders and Fenris regarding demons, nor did I say that you were the one who brought up Anders.

My point is that some people who say "You can't take Anders seriously on any issue" decide to ignore their own comment and say "Well Anders says to Fenris that you have to look a demon in the eye and deal with them.

They take that comment of his seriously but decide to not take anything else seriously when they said that what Anders says can't be taken seriously, so those people are hypocrites.

People will take Anders seriously, and that's fine. I do on some things. But what infuriates me is the hypocrisy among the people who say "Don't listen to Anders regarding anything. He's crazy, so he's unreliable".

Then, they decide to take Anders' words seriously there.

People need to learn to practice what they preach.

[/rant off]


Now, back on topic, what did Anders possibly make up about his time in the Ferelden Circle? Solitary confinement? escaping 7 times? I'm curious as to what you think he made up.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:13 .

[Sinaxi]

Harid wrote...

ademska wrote...

Harid wrote...

That's really not true at all, due to the existance of apostates.  As well as the imperium.

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

she did go crazy on her own, though. the stupid idol just made it more obvious. the main reason i hate that idol is that it obscures her real actions throughout the game. as for her not being a fear-mongering lunatic...

she approved tranquiling harrowed mages like karl thekla, which is extremely illegal, and as the years go by anders states that he's seen the number of harrowed tranquil grow exponentially. she may not have agreed with ser alrik's tranquil solution, but she allowed him to not only keep his job but continue his activitives -- which appear to have included rape as well as rites -- completely unchecked. we see several mages in the gallows recount stories of rape and beatings. some of them even state that they'd prefer death to the kirkwall circle.

Karl was tranquiled without her consent, wasn't that argued not even a page ago?

Her keeping Alrik just shows she's incompetant, it doesn't prove she's a fear mongerer, either.

And you can't take anything Anders says seriously.  He's crazy.  He made **** up all of the time that directly conflict things we've seen with our own eyes, like conditions in the Fereldan Circle.  Hell, he made **** up prior to binding together with Justice.

Um, ok? How in the freaking world can you prove that Anders is lying about how his time in the Ferelden circle went? Where is your proof for that? Did you see him go there when he was 12 years old in chains while his mother wept beside him? You weren't there. You didn't see it. You didn't see him sentenced to solitary confinement for a year. Your argument that Anders is just making up everything is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, as if the world of Thedas is completely set in the stone ONLY the way we see it for a short amount of time in our games, and absolutely nothing outside of what we saw could possibly ever be true.

Seriously? Your argument against Meredith's injustices is just "No, no, it's not true, ANDERS IS JUST A LIAR GUYS!" How utterly amusing.

Modifié par Tidra, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:59 .

[Harid]

Tidra wrote...

Um, ok? How in the freaking world can you prove that Anders is lying about how his time in the Ferelden circle went? Where is your proof for that? Did you see him go there when he was 12 years old in chains while his mother wept beside him? You weren't there. You didn't see it. You didn't see him sentenced to solitary confinement for a year. Your argument that Anders is just making up everything is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, as if the world of Thedas is completely set in the stone ONLY the way we see it for a short amount of time in our games, and absolutely nothing outside of what we saw could possibly ever be true.

Seriously? Your argument against Meredith's injustices are just "No, no, it's not true, ANDERS IS JUST A LIAR GUYS!" How utterly amusing.

Because you can play a circle mage character.  Because you can speak to mages in that circle.  Because none of those mages complain about it.  Becuase Anders tried to escape 7 times, and would not be treated as a normal mage.  Because he makes **** up several times, including in the conclusion of the story to fit his own purpose.  I have no reason to believe his words on the plight of mages.

And, no that's not my argument at all.  But nice to see you resort to hyperbole and strawmans to fit your purpose.  I suppose it's why these threads devolve into borderline circle jerks.

[Sinaxi]

Lol, how the hell did I use a strawman? That is what you posted, I remarked on what you posted, nothing more, nothing less. You said Anders made everything up, so I remarked on it. That was your original position on Anders from what I read, if it was not then direct me to another post. I don't see any misrepresentation in my post of what you said, if there is then like I said - show me where. And, what?! CIRCLE JERKS? YES!

Regardless of if you can play a Circle Mage character, you don't ever meet Anders in the circle, and uhhh as far as I remember the few mages I talked to were A: A crazy girl who wanted the Right of Annulment to go through because she had been conditioned by the Chantry into believing her magic was a curse and she hated herself. B: Jowan who had to use blood magic to escape the circle because he knew they wanted to turn him into a Tranquil. Shining examples, right?

I'm not saying Irving and Greagoir were bad people, Meredith is 20x worse than Greagoir but you can't say Anders time at the circle is a lie just because you assume what you saw is completely set in stone and the way everything is..personally I see no reason why the writers would decide to write a character who blatantly lies about everything and you never have any way of knowing it. That makes no sense. The only other mages I ever remember talking to were Wynne, and Irving and a few others who were worried during Right of Annulment.

Of course Anders tried to escape seven times, more freaking power to him because he doesn't want to lived like a caged animal.

[ademska]

Harid wrote...

Because you can play a circle mage character.  Because you can speak to mages in that circle.  Because none of those mages complain about it.  Becuase Anders tried to escape 7 times, and would not be treated as a normal mage.  Because he makes **** up several times, including in the conclusion of the story to fit his own purpose.  I have no reason to believe his words on the plight of mages.

And, no that's not my argument at all.  But nice to see you resort to hyperbole and strawmans to fit your purpose.  I suppose it's why these threads devolve into borderline circle jerks.

tidra didn't strawman you; you stated that based on what we saw in the circle mage origin, everything anders said about the ferelden circle could be reasonably concluded as deliberate lies.

this is an oversimplification at best and a falsehood at worst. we see a very limited view of the ferelden circle, and even what we see is rife with troubles under the surface, like the chantry indoctrination of some of the mages. the only views we get into the ferelden circle firsthand are as a prodigal mage who's already passed his harrowing and later when the entire circle is potentially being murdered.  we've got NO reason to believe anders is lying about the conditions there.

i'm not sure where this anders is a liar thing comes from anyway. the one proof positive lie he tells in the game is during the justice quest, and his mannerisms are incredibly obvious. anders is paranoid, maybe crazy, but he's not insane. in fact, the entire point of janders is that after merging, justice saw the injustices mages faced, particularly what anders experienced, and was twisted by his latent anger and resentment.

i mean, can you give me another example of anders outright lying about anything? the burden of proof is on you, after all.

Modifié par ademska, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:16 .

[Sabotin]

GavrielKay wrote...

Sabotin wrote...

Yeah, I know it's a stretch, but I'm just trying to bring the point across, that a person's life is for some people inherently worth more than their emotional state. So, there's no need to be amazed when someone finds it objectionable that Anders stabs Karl.

But life has to be something more than the ability to walk around and follow orders.  If you have no desire, concern, fear, love, hope...  what exactly is the point?  It's like being in a permanent coma except you're still able to be ordered around and make money for the people who put you in the coma.  That may fit the dictionary definition of life, but it isn't something most people would consider living.

I agree with you, but the issue remains - Is it the right thing to do to kill people in a coma that are little more than vegetables, all terminally ill people that won't live long anyway, those that suffer famine and will suffer through their life, the old that won't contribute anything more,...? The issue escalates to whatever level we subjectively set. When you put a value on life that is dependent on the value to you, it looses its intrinsic value and becomes a subjective thing that depends entirely on one's point of view. This puts power over life and death of people into the hands of other people. What is then the difference from the chantry? And we have come full circle.

Taking away someone's life should always be objectionable. Maybe you can decide that it is justice or mercy or whatever floats your boat, but noone should be able to talk about it as something natural and self-evident.

[TEWR]

I'm wondering if somehow Justice saw all of the memories that Anders had regarding the Circle much like the demon did to Sophia Dryden and her entire life.

He was able to do it with Kristoff, so I'm assuming he could do it with Anders to. Justice said he could even feel (and hear?) the memories on Kristoff's items in the Keep itself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:31 .

[Harid]

Tidra wrote...

Lol, how the hell did I use a strawman? That is what you posted, I remarked on what you posted, nothing more, nothing less. You said Anders made everything up, so I remarked on it. That was your original position on Anders from what I read, if it was not then direct me to another post. I don't see any misrepresentation in my post of what you said, if there is then like I said - show me where. And, what?! CIRCLE JERKS? YES!

Regardless of if you can play a Circle Mage character, you don't ever meet Anders in the circle, and uhhh as far as I remember the few mages I talked to were A: A crazy girl who wanted the Right of Annulment to go through because she had been conditioned by the Chantry into believing her magic was a curse and she hated herself. B: Jowan who had to use blood magic to escape the circle because he knew they wanted to turn him into a Tranquil. Shining examples, right?

I'm not saying Irving and Greagoir were bad people, Meredith is 20x worse than Greagoir but you can't say Anders time at the circle is a lie just because you assume what you saw is completely set in stone and the way everything is..personally I see no reason why the writers would decide to write a character who blatantly lies about everything and you never have any way of knowing it. That makes no sense. The only other mages I ever remember talking to were Wynne, and Irving and a few others who were worried during Right of Annulment.

Of course Anders tried to escape seven times, more freaking power to him because he doesn't want to lived like a caged animal.

I posted that Meredith wasn't a paranoid hate monger based on in game facts that you distilled into me calling Anders a liar.  I called Anders a liar on the plight of mages, which was a separate point to Meredith all together.  You then stated the crux of my argument was that Meredith is fine because Anders is a liar.

You spoke to more people in the circle than your two examples.  What about Wynne?  Oh, stokholm syndrome, right?  Or Finn? OR Kinnon?  You are also ignoring that they wanted to turn Jowan tranquil because he was suspected to be a maleficarum, and was.  But he's the innocent in all of this!  Of course, though, you would ignore the mages that had no problem with the circle, as it would not suit your purpose of those poor circle mages.  This is also ignoring the point that vast majority of circle mages have no problem with the circle system told to us by the Fraternity system.  If the plight of mages were so poor, the Aequitarians would not logically be the dominate Fraternity body in Thedas.

I don't believe Anders is telling the truth because my mage circle character as well as the mages in the circle did not corroberate his story and Anders is a proven liar.  Anders can't complain about solitary confinement when he escaped 7 times, he would not be treated like a common circle mage because of it.  I have no reason to believe his experiances are what all circle mage experiance.  Why didn't my mage Warden?  Why didn't Wynne? (I expect her taken Child to come out of no where here despite the fact that that is Chantry law that she knowingly broke)

Of course, when the guy says straight up bull like "I've never met a mage that has desired dominion over others", when we've met like 20 that have, well, yeah.  Shining beacon of truth.

Modifié par Harid, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:46 .

[FieryDove]

Sabotin wrote...

. But still, Anders has no right to take his life, it is murder plain and simple.

Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree then. That would also make Aveline a murderer and I do not believe that. Same if you don't take Anders into DR with your sibling and what they ask you to do.

Harid wrote...

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

She was deep into paranoia in act1, probably before we even arrived. “See’s demons everywhere”. The idol just magnified it.

[Harid]

FieryDove wrote...

Sabotin wrote...

. But still, Anders has no right to take his life, it is murder plain and simple.

Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree then. That would also make Aveline a murderer and I do not believe that. Same if you don't take Anders into DR with your sibling and what they ask you to do.

Harid wrote...

My argument was based on someone calling her a fear mongering lunatic.  Tranquiling all mages would be something a fear mongering lunatic would do, rather than blowing him off like she did.

Yes, without question she was insane post idol, which is what made the idol stupid as hell as far as I am concerned, I'd have prefered her to go crazy on her own (which she very easily could have done with all the blood mages in Kirkwall) rather than an idol doing it.

She was deep into paranoia in act1, probably before we even arrived. “See’s demons everywhere”. The idol just magnified it.

There were actually demons everywhere in Kirkwall due to shoddy Bioware writing.

Weak veil, and all that good stuff.

I would call her a mage hater no problem, but paranoia is not proven until after the idol comes into play.

[TEWR]

The incredibly thin Veil would've been a nice thing for the plot if they had done more with it and not left it to finding 12 codex entries.


And if they hadn't made every mage go insane when he's offered cookies chocolate

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:47 .

[DPSSOC]

Harid wrote...
Of course, when the guy says straight up bull like "I've never met a mage that has desired dominion over others", when we've met like 20 that have, well, yeah.  Shining beacon of truth.

Which brings to mind a question; does anyone know where Anders was when Uldred happened?

[Harid]

DPSSOC wrote...

Harid wrote...
Of course, when the guy says straight up bull like "I've never met a mage that has desired dominion over others", when we've met like 20 that have, well, yeah.  Shining beacon of truth.

Which brings to mind a question; does anyone know where Anders was when Uldred happened?

He didn't exist at the time, and based on this game I doubt Bioware planned that far ahead.