1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Sons of Horus]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...
And I stated again, movements.   Do you understand what I mean when I talk about a movement?

I don't understand why you are fixated on movements.  There are enough people who support the mages to get the word out about what happened in Kirkwall.  There are thousands of mages who can rebel.  You've decided that you need a movement, and I haven't.

I think Harid’s point about movements is a logistical aspect. Mages don't really have an economy or an major nations support (aside for Tevinter at the moment, a dubious blessing ). Any army, needs support, supplies ete . Even if most of the mages rebel, they are still few in number compared with the templar’s and other armies that they can gather to their cause.
 
Mages are powerful yes but against templar’s without any support they may be more likely to use blood magic, abominations out of the general populace as lyrium supplies would be assaulted on both sides. This would alienate their allies in the populace.

The chantey may try to get involved overtly but that is a bit risky, as it would draw ire from one side. And if Anders himself lived, he would be hated by a majority of people. I guess its all headed back to the days before the circles.

[GavrielKay]

Sons of Horus wrote...

I think Harid’s point about movements is a logistical aspect. Mages don't really have an economy or an major nations support (aside for Tevinter at the moment, a dubious blessing ). Any army, needs support, supplies ete . Even if most of the mages rebel, they are still few in number compared with the templar’s and other armies that they can gather to their cause.

I just don't see it.  There is tons of open land to live off of, they need no weapons.  Guerilla warfare is probably their style anyway, small groups attacking from sheltered positions.  It's not like they have to be organized into a giant army that will face the Templars on an open field.  The epilogue only says there is war and the Templars are hunting the mages.  They could just be on the run attacking when cornered.  We aren't expected to believe that they've suddenly got this "movement" behind them, only that they are still loose and still causing trouble.

[Walrusninja]

In case you havn't realised yet Rifneno, this isn't WW2, also, the invention of nuclear weapons and use of such has been a matter of division and even conflict ever since...... Also, yeah, we sorted it eventually, but as I noted would happen in the DA war, many died from all walks, millions actually..... they would've been better taking out the1 or 2 people driving it all or finding a mid-ground instead of starting a full scale war which would rip the world apart. Which is what Anders did.

My point was - there has to be a middle ground they could reach. I mean, they both HATE each other. They both wield HUGE power. They both have the capability to be incredibly dangerous. Mages don't deserve to be caged, but then many of them keep showing that it's the only way (Anders now jumps to number 1 example on the list, in doing so he's ruined his own cause really). The Templars are also not an evil army of monsters ;o They're just soldiers following orders mostly, there's always a few rotten eggs though. In general, they only protect the innocent from mages, attempt to protect the mages from themselves and take out demons etc. They mean well, and most of the time, they do well. Very little comparible to ****'s, try to broaden you horizons.

The Mages and Templars spent ages argueing and hoping to avoid a war. If they'd cut the crap they could've found a solution if they'd just worked together, people like the Mother in Kirkwall were key in that. Anders simply eliminated that option with his actions, decided it would never happen and in doing so started a horrific war that would hurt all ..... that was selfish. Now the rest of the mages get to clean up his mess and millions will die in the process. He set everything back with his impatience.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

[Ryzaki]

GavrielKay wrote...
I just don't see it.  There is tons of open land to live off of, they need no weapons.  Guerilla warfare is probably their style anyway, small groups attacking from sheltered positions.  It's not like they have to be organized into a giant army that will face the Templars on an open field.  The epilogue only says there is war and the Templars are hunting the mages.  They could just be on the run attacking when cornered.  We aren't expected to believe that they've suddenly got this "movement" behind them, only that they are still loose and still causing trouble.

Right the mages who have been waited on hand and foot are gonna know how to farm. That's real likely. 

Guerilla warfare requires you be able to blend in. THere's plenty of things that'll give a circle mage away. Most majorily their complete ignorance to how things work in the real world. 

[esper]

Walrusninja wrote...

In case you havn't realised yet Rifneno, this isn't WW2, also, the invention of nuclear weapons and use of such has been a matter of division and even conflict ever since...... Also, yeah, we sorted it eventually, but as I noted would happen in the DA war, many died from all walks, millions actually..... they would've been better taking out the1 or 2 people driving it all or finding a mid-ground instead of starting a full scale war which would rip the world apart. Which is what Anders did.

My point was - there has to be a middle ground they could reach. I mean, they both HATE each other. They both wield HUGE power. They both have the capability to be incredibly dangerous. Mages don't deserve to be caged, but then many of them keep showing that it's the only way (Anders now jumps to number 1 example on the list, in doing so he's ruined his own cause really). The Templars are also not an evil army of monsters ;o They're just soldiers following orders mostly, there's always a few rotten eggs though. In general, they only protect the innocent from mages, attempt to protect the mages from themselves and take out demons etc. They mean well, and most of the time, they do well. Very little comparible to ****'s, try to broaden you horizons.

The Mages and Templars spent ages argueing and hoping to avoid a war. If they'd cut the crap they could've found a solution if they'd just worked together, people like the Mother in Kirkwall were key in that. Anders simply eliminated that option with his actions, decided it would never happen and in doing so started a horrific war that would hurt all ..... that was selfish. Now the rest of the mages get to clean up his mess and millions will die in the process. He set everything back with his impatience.

Which middle ground? People keep saying that there is a middle ground, but I just don't see it there. And if someone has spent a 1000 years arguing they are NOT going to agree.

[happy_daiz]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right the mages who have been waited on hand and foot are gonna know how to farm. That's real likely. 

Guerilla warfare requires you be able to blend in. THere's plenty of things that'll give a circle mage away. Most majorily their complete ignorance to how things work in the real world. 

Emile de Launcet is a good example of that.

Edit: I loved how at the very end, if you side with the mages, he admits that he's not a very good mage. The poor guy.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[GavrielKay]

Walrusninja wrote...
The Mages and Templars spent ages argueing and hoping to avoid a war. If they'd cut the crap they could've found a solution if they'd just worked together, people like the Mother in Kirkwall were key in that.

There was no bargaining to be done.  If the simple fact that this has been going on for 1000 years doesn't make that clear, then I don't think anything will.  The mages have no position to bargain from.  They are totaly dominated by a group that thinks they are granted the divine right and duty to keep the mages in check.  The only peaceful solution that was in the works was the mages just sucking it up and suffering for however much longer the Chantry chooses to make them.

[GavrielKay]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right the mages who have been waited on hand and foot are gonna know how to farm. That's real likely. 

Guerilla warfare requires you be able to blend in. THere's plenty of things that'll give a circle mage away. Most majorily their complete ignorance to how things work in the real world. 

People in desperate straights will often surprise you.  And living off the land is not the same as farming anyway.  You can steal apples and zap a rabbit without too much training.

[Plaintiff]

Ryzaki wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I just don't see it.  There is tons of open land to live off of, they need no weapons.  Guerilla warfare is probably their style anyway, small groups attacking from sheltered positions.  It's not like they have to be organized into a giant army that will face the Templars on an open field.  The epilogue only says there is war and the Templars are hunting the mages.  They could just be on the run attacking when cornered.  We aren't expected to believe that they've suddenly got this "movement" behind them, only that they are still loose and still causing trouble.

Right the mages who have been waited on hand and foot are gonna know how to farm. That's real likely. 

Guerilla warfare requires you be able to blend in. THere's plenty of things that'll give a circle mage away. Most majorily their complete ignorance to how things work in the real world. 

Waited on my ass. We never see any servants in the Circle.

The Circles are self-sustained communities. A circle in the middle of a city, like Kirkwall, may have food delivered, sure, but Circles like the one in Ferelden would have their own gardens out of necessity. And there are of course the mages who were raised in rural areas before coming into their power, and ones like Ines who are knowledgeable about plant life because it's their field of study.

It's not as if the Templars would fare any better. They're nothing but an army, and they live off the work of the Circle mages like parasites.

[Walrusninja]

That's the problem esper. Very few were looking for it, both sides just wanted to argue. But there's always a middle ground. The Mother in Kirkwall was one of the few Chantry Mothers who could really help change things ... Anders blew her up.

I'm not at all against the idea of the mages taking a stand, they were treated like dirt. Anders went about it the worst way possible though. He blew up the few good Chantry powers he'd met, and left the rest of the mages at the mercy and fury of the rest. Good move.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah nevermind. I really don't care. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:47 .

[Plaintiff]

Walrusninja wrote...

That's the problem esper. Very few were looking for it, both sides just wanted to argue. But there's always a middle ground. The Mother in Kirkwall was one of the few Chantry Mothers who could really help change things ... Anders blew her up.

I'm not at all against the idea of the mages taking a stand, they were treated like dirt. Anders went about it the worst way possible though. He blew up the few good Chantry powers he'd met, and left the rest of the mages at the mercy and fury of the rest. Good move.

Elthina had seven years to "change things" and she didn't do squat. Failing to act in the face of such obvious injustice makes her just as guilty. Meredith's crimes are Elthina's crimes.

[esper]

No Walrusninja. Normally I would agree with you, but not here. Any improvement at all for the mages would have been seen as heritical from the Chantry's side and would have definitly have caused the exalthed march that was one its way.
Elthina was anti-mage. Yeah she was a nice lady, but she believed in the chantry and umlitmately believed that while she knew the mages had it hard they had 'options normal people don't have' (i think that was how she phrased it) - implied that she ultimately thought that they couldn't be let free. Besides she couldn't have gone against chantry law.
I just don't see the middle ground here. You cannot sacrifice basic human rights of the minority just to make the majority feel safe.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Plaintiff wrote...

Walrusninja wrote...

That's the problem esper. Very few were looking for it, both sides just wanted to argue. But there's always a middle ground. The Mother in Kirkwall was one of the few Chantry Mothers who could really help change things ... Anders blew her up.

I'm not at all against the idea of the mages taking a stand, they were treated like dirt. Anders went about it the worst way possible though. He blew up the few good Chantry powers he'd met, and left the rest of the mages at the mercy and fury of the rest. Good move.

Elthina had seven years to "change things" and she didn't do squat. Failing to act in the face of such obvious injustice makes her just as guilty. Meredith's crimes are Elthina's crimes.

She was Grand Cleric for much longer than seven years. Her inaction was a problem before Hawke was even relevant.

Also, the Templars are now cut off from the Chantry, meaning that sweet exclusive deal on lyrium is now gone. It's more than likely that packs of Templars, half-crazed due to lyrium withdrawal and poisoning, will be rampaging across the countryside. They can say goodbye to their impervious PR.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:02 .

[Plaintiff]

Ryzaki wrote...
Right. You obviously took that to a extreme. What I meant is they don't provide for themselves.

Says who?

The food is prepared for them (in the Fereldan Circle at least and Emile says the same thing), their clothes are given to them, their books, their staffs, their grimoires all given. They own little that the circle doesn't provide. (Some have some trinkets from their parents like Anders' pillow but that's probably the extent of it). 

The circles are self-sustained thanks to the templars and the chantry. The mages don't provide everything. (Unless they are mage weavers and cooks).

"Self-sustained" means "sustained by itself. If the templars and chantry do anything for them, then they aren't "self-sustained" now, are they. But the Templars don't do ****, they are jailors and that is all they are. The Chantry does even less. Mages are not stupid, they can take care of themselves if need be. The Chantry controls them through indoctrination and the monopoly on lyrium. Mages owe nothing to either of these parties for their survival. In fact, it's stated in-game that the Circles' main source of income comes from selling enchantments.

The circle in Fereldan had a garden?  The circle in Fereldan was in the midde of a lake remember? There was no garden that I saw in game. 

Oh right, I totally forgot boats don't exist in Thedas.

You don't need to see a garden to know it must be there. the Circle is too far away from other settlements to rely on food being delivered, especially with no known method of preservation presented in-game. Gardens would be necessary, that's just how it is.

And reading about plants and knowing how to farm are not the same thing. And how many are as knowledgable like Ines? According to you peeps Mages are slaves trapped in the tower forever. So which is it? Are they allowed to go out enough to be knowledgeable or not?

When theyhave their own gardens, they don't have to go anywhere, derp derp. Yes, mages are slaves, a few being allowed out with special permission does not contradict that assertion.

And that would be all well and good. If the mages were just fighting the templars. They won't be. They'll be fighting the populace as well.

And you assume mages will be fighting on their own because...?

To farm you need animals and land (either that or a lot of people willing to work long hard hours). It would be amusing to see the mages running around trying to catch the animals necessary to do so. I wonder if Fereldan uses plows? Then of course is the fact that bad luck hits. They will starve for a time (leading to them probably getting desperate and stealing and then having the populace hand them to the templars).

You're assuming an awful lot. Thedas operates on a feudal system, the populace will do what their banns, arls and teryns tell them to do. There's a lot of dislike of the Chantry and templars shown among the nobility in-game and any lord with half a brain can see the immense long-term benefits of breaking the Chantry monopoly on magic. Who is to say that they won't have just as many people rushing to their aid?

[Walrusninja]

To an extent I can actually agree with that Esper. There was very unlikely to ever be change with the current Chantry system and hierarchy, which is why I support the mages standing up for themselves. But then surely the heads of the Chantry needed dealt with? Not open war. I just think that frankly, Anders had no right to decide for the entire of the Mage world what they wanted and when they wanted it. They should've had a vote among Elders to lead the Circles in a united protest or something peaceful but clear and strong, at least as a first measure. All out war, will clear the air ... one way or another, but it'll also make an insane mess and drag those who have nothing to do with the conflict into it. It matters little now. That was Anders success, he set things rolling either way. But in that, he was selfish.

[esper]

Walrusninja, I am all for taken out the head of the chantry, but are you sure that she just wouldn't be replaced? And the replacement wouldn't have the same view as the current divine?
I am terrible afraid that if the circles have tried to do the peacefull, but united protest they would have been unitely cut down by the templars... I think that Thedas regrettably is at the point where they need the open war.
Anders is a strange mix of selfishness and selflessness.

[Ryzaki]

@Plantiff: Right so despite no evidence supporting it the Circle must have a Garden there. I really can't be bothered with the walls of text anymore so you win. 

And let's ignore the fact that there's a tavern right next door that serves food. Obviously no food is being shipped to that area on a regular basis right? 

 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:45 .

[Walrusninja]

Esper, if the mages stood together on their own terms, when it suited them, first peacefully, I think war could be averted. They're more likley to get wiped out in this shambles than they would be in an organised, united rebellion surely.
On the subject of the Divine, indeed that's true. But then the snag is, Anders basically sent out a "we are quick to resort to violence and can't be trusted" message. Who does that help? How can the war end any way other than the Mages being all but wiped out?

Modifié par Walrusninja, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[GavrielKay]

Walrusninja wrote...
Anders basically sent out a "we are quick to resort to violence and can't be trusted" message. Who does that help? How can the war end any way other than the Mages being all but wiped out?

You can't possibly be serious here.  We are quick to resort to violence?  After 1000 freaking years?  After 30 or so of his own years?  After 7 years of Kirkwall's utter craziness?

This is ridiculous.

[Walrusninja]

Anders has not been alive 1000 years himself. The problem has gone on that long, he only reecently joined it. He also managed to flatten any and all progress that HAD been made worldwide single-handedly. Also, what's with the "we", odd.

Perhaps I should've left the "quick" out. Still, the Templars believe the Mages can't be trusted and resort to Blood Magic for their own gains. That is exactly what this will be seen as, on an enormous scale.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:14 .

[GavrielKay]

Walrusninja wrote...

Anders has not been alive 1000 years himself. The problem has gone on that long, he only reecently joined it. He also managed to flatten any and all progress that HAD been made worldwide single-handedly. Also, what's with the "we", odd.

Perhaps I should've left the "quick" out. Still, the Templars believe the Mages can't be trusted and resort to Blood Magic for their own gains. That is exactly what this will be seen as, on an enormous scale.

Yes, and the Templars have always believed that and intend to continue to believe that.  Nothing has changed.  Nothing has gotten better.  Kirkwall proves that it can get very bad indeed.

Talking is not going to solve this.  A better organized rebellion might have a higher chance of solving the problem (if real world politics and logistics mattered in a fantasy game) but talking wasn't going to do a darn thing.  Just look around.  The Divine was considering an Exalted March, not dethroning Meredith and fixing conditions in the circle.  That should tell you quite a bit about the Chantry attitude.

The "we" came from your post.

Edit: spelling

Modifié par GavrielKay, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[esper]

Walrusninja, but how should they band together with the circles spread out?
The Chantry would never, ever, had let its hold over the mages go willingly. A hughe part of the Andrastian faith is: Mages are dangerous, caused the blight, and look how scary Tevinter is - we do not want Tevinter. (All right the last bit was a bit simplicstic). The problem with the Chantry is that they believe they had a divine right to do what they did. You cannot argue with faith - no matter how convinvcing and right your arguments is the other part will never listen simply because they believe differenly. They would never let the mages go, so the mages has to break free.

A bit more cynical: Why would the Chantry ever weaken its milatary power like that?

The worst case scenario for the mages is that the templars suceed in wiping out the current generation of mages, but then what?
New mages will be born and the templars are no longer part of the chantry which I guess means no more cirlces.
Can you reallysee parents hand over their children to the templars if the only solution to the children's 'curse' is death of tranquil?
What will the normal populace do when sickness strike? The templars can't cure them, only the mages and they can't come from the circle anymore.
when the qunari attacks the mages are needed. It was they who turned the tide last time. In the end Thedas need mages and can't stop them from being born. Anders' action may have caused this and future genartion to be haunted and hated, but they are free to make decisions about their life now and ulitmately they are needed - a luxary, and a bargain deal, that the elves for example doesn't have.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Diplomacy is great, but difficult, and at times, almost impossible when everyone perceives you to be a threat. Why bother negotiating if the other side refuses to consider anything that does not work to its absolute favor?

[Walrusninja]

I guess, at the end of it all, who's to say? There's certainly a very good chance that the Chantry would never have rested. Still, war between the two. Eep. We'll see I guess