1411 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Best case scenario is that individual countries make a deal with the moderates (they do exist: Wynne, Irving, and the entire Aequitarian Fraternity) and get mage relations normalized (if only to keep them as a military resource), at the cost of possibly starting more conflicts with more Chantry-loyal countries, like Orlais.

Worst case scenario is all mages are wiped out, leaving Andrastian Thedas irreparably weakened against both the Imperium and the Qunari, leading them to be steamrollered.

[Walrusninja]

The future is bright huh?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Well, either way Thedas is facing a war to end all wars, so to speak. One that's as much the Chantry's fault than any one mage. And really, even though the Chantry is played up a benevolent institution of reason, the situation would have been many orders of magnitude simpler if they simply did not wield the power they did. They're at the crux of the problem, and either way, the Chantry isn't going to live through this war.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:33 .

[GavrielKay]

Walrusninja wrote...

The future is bright huh?

It really depends on the players point of view.  The mages in my opinion had a really bleak future to look forward to prior to the outbreak  of war.  Now they have a slim hope of ending up with something better.

As for the normal people who've been giving the Chantry the support it needs to keep the mages oppressed - well, time to take on some of the risk the mages have been suffering under.

My Hawke is not sympathetic to people who've provided the excuse for the Chantry to become what it is.

[OMTING52601]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Best case scenario is that individual countries make a deal with the moderates (they do exist: Wynne, Irving, and the entire Aequitarian Fraternity) and get mage relations normalized (if only to keep them as a military resource), at the cost of possibly starting more conflicts with more Chantry-loyal countries, like Orlais.

Worst case scenario is all mages are wiped out, leaving Andrastian Thedas irreparably weakened against both the Imperium and the Qunari, leading them to be steamrollered.

Personally, I'm hoping for this. At least give the mages options, for the love of Andraste. If some of them want to live in the Circle, great. There should also be some sort of mentorship program for child-mages to learn to control their gifts while living with their families and being, you know, children. And the Harrowing isn't a wholly bad idea, either, a rite of passage that marks a mage capable of handling themselves.

But if all of Ferelden and The Free Marches is chaotic because of this mage/Chantry war, I'd guess there will be a lot more crap to worry about than settling their dispute. Like invaders from Par Vollen and Orlais, at least, maybe even Tevinter. I mean with the Chantry weakened, what's to stop the Black Divine from giving a takeover another go?

[Porenferser]

Yeah, Anders did the right thing if you are someone who likes to play Little Taliban.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Porenferser wrote...

Yeah, Anders did the right thing if you are someone who likes to play Little Taliban.

Yes, because things obviously get better when one sits on their ass and does nothing. Right?

[Porenferser]

Oh yes, he started a world wide war, things did really get better *wink*

[ademska]

Porenferser wrote...

Yeah, Anders did the right thing if you are someone who likes to play Little Taliban.

me, i do!! i have the lego playset, i like to pretend mullah mohammed omar and mullah dadullah are married and live downstairs from auntie osama, who's refurbishing a '67 charger.

now, do you have anything actually productive to add to the discussion? i'd love to hear it!

Modifié par ademska, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[Clangeddin86]

The only middleground that there was in the Templars vs Mages thing was Thrusk.
He was the only reasonable guy in the whole lot, as soon as he died I knew that there could be no happy peaceful ending.
However he had two problems:
1) The story of his daughter could have made him look as "biased" in the best case scenario, or downright possessed by some zealots. His little daughter secret could have made him blackmailable.
2) He was not very strong, apparently.

[ademska]

Clangeddin86 wrote...

The only middleground that there was in the Templars vs Mages thing was Thrusk.
He was the only reasonable guy in the whole lot, as soon as he died I knew that there could be no happy peaceful ending.
However he had two problems:
1) The story of his daughter could have made him look as "biased" in the best case scenario, or downright possessed by some zealots. His little daughter secret could have made him blackmailable.
2) He was not very strong, apparently.

thrask was a good character, and a good templar, but anders' entire point was there is no middle-ground, and that as long as templars and the circle exist, the problem will persist. templars are jailers by trade, even if they're nice about it.

it's like civil rights issues -- if compromise is attempted between the open majority and the oppressed minority (eg 'separate but equal' or 'civil unions'), that compromise is inherently flawed because it still allows that status quo system of oppression to remain, even if it's slightly diminished.

what makes the mage vs templar issue less obviously black and white is that, unlike race/gender/orientation/etc discrimination, mages are potentially more dangerous than the majority normies. but the point stands -- thrask is a good man, but he's still a prison guard for people who've not done anything wrong.

[Clangeddin86]

ademska wrote...

what makes the mage vs templar issue less obviously black and white is that, unlike race/gender/orientation/etc discrimination, mages are potentially more dangerous than the majority normies. but the point stands -- thrask is a good man, but he's still a prison guard for people who've not done anything wrong.

I may remember wrong, but I think Thrask partially mentions this at some point of the game, and his intention would be to change this jailor/prisoner relationship between Templars and mages.
Yes, you may ask "how?", I don't know, but now it doesn't matter anymore since the scenario of Thrask being the new Liutenant Templar Commander of Kirkwall is out of the window for sure, and we don't know what he would have done to improve the situation of mages.

[Sons of Horus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
I just don't see it.  There is tons of open land to live off of, they need no weapons.  Guerilla warfare is probably their style anyway, small groups attacking from sheltered positions.  It's not like they have to be organized into a giant army that will face the Templars on an open field.  The epilogue only says there is war and the Templars are hunting the mages.  They could just be on the run attacking when cornered.  We aren't expected to believe that they've suddenly got this "movement" behind them, only that they are still loose and still causing trouble.

Right the mages who have been waited on hand and foot are gonna know how to farm. That's real likely. 

Guerilla warfare requires you be able to blend in. THere's plenty of things that'll give a circle mage away. Most majorily their complete ignorance to how things work in the real world. 

Waited on my ass. We never see any servants in the Circle.

The Circles are self-sustained communities. A circle in the middle of a city, like Kirkwall, may have food delivered, sure, but Circles like the one in Ferelden would have their own gardens out of necessity. And there are of course the mages who were raised in rural areas before coming into their power, and ones like Ines who are knowledgeable about plant life because it's their field of study.

It's not as if the Templars would fare any better. They're nothing but an army, and they live off the work of the Circle mages like parasites.

An incorrect assessment, Templar’s are trained mostly in the chantry, most of their swords and armour is comparable with any standing army in Thedas, their ability to shutdown magic is what makes them most effective as is their zealotry .
Also Circles are self-sustained communities to an extent but also can be forced into lockdown, so those mages can be lockdown indefinitely. Plus Templar’s know all passages and spy places within their Circles so its at least their layout is comparable if not higher than its occupants
Even if mages do escape they can still be located via the phylactery. In all I think this rebellion may be short lived without more odds being stacked in the mages favour. People seem to forget that the Templar order used to be known as the "Inquisition"  and they seem to be going back to their "hunter" role.

[ademska]

Sons of Horus wrote...

An incorrect assessment, Templar’s are trained mostly in the chantry, most of their swords and armour is comparable with any standing army in Thedas, their ability to shutdown magic is what makes them most effective as is their zealotry .
Also Circles are self-sustained communities to an extent but also can be forced into lockdown, so those mages can be lockdown indefinitely. Plus Templar’s know all passages and spy places within their Circles so its at least their layout is comparable if not higher than its occupants
Even if mages do escape they can still be located via the phylactery. In all I think this rebellion may be short lived without more odds being stacked in the mages favour. People seem to forget that the Templar order used to be known as the "Inquisition"  and they seem to be going back to their "hunter" role.

mmm, but you're not taking into account that the templars backsliding into hunter territory have disassociated from the chantry, and that the surface dwarves who deal lyrium export trade almost exclusively with the chantry. templars are addicted to lyrium, sure, but it goes deeper than that. templars' mage-hunting and fighting abilities require lyrium, and a shortage or inconsistent supply of it in the throes of war give the mages a significant advantage and a fighting chance.

by da2's epilogue, it's been three years and the rebellion is still going strong. we don't know what political changes have come to pass; for all we know, orzammar is dunzo, lyrium exporting is faltering, the templars are rogue and scattered, and phylactery chambers have been destroyed. of course, the opposite could be true, but the point is that the mages aren't really so helpless.

[Sons of Horus]

ademska wrote...
mmm, but you're not taking into account that the templars backsliding into hunter territory have disassociated from the chantry, and that the surface dwarves who deal lyrium export trade almost exclusively with the chantry. templars are addicted to lyrium, sure, but it goes deeper than that. templars' mage-hunting and fighting abilities require lyrium, and a shortage or inconsistent supply of it in the throes of war give the mages a significant advantage and a fighting chance.

by da2's epilogue, it's been three years and the rebellion is still going strong. we don't know what political changes have come to pass; for all we know, orzammar is dunzo, lyrium exporting is faltering, the templars are rogue and scattered, and phylactery chambers have been destroyed. of course, the opposite could be true, but the point is that the mages aren't really so helpless.

I didn't say the mages are helpless ademska, what I meant was they can't fight a prolonged war against the templar’s due to lack of a supporting inforstucture currently, as opposed to the templar’s own foundries, barracks ete . I think the Chantry may side with the templars more if mages chose to leave chantry oversite and their resorces would be brought to meausre as well.

You may be right about the lyrium withdrawal. But according to Alistair, a templar's abilities comes more from discipline than the lyrium. We do know that mages and templar’s love the illegal smuggled in lyrium, so its possible they may still be able to access some in limited amounts.

Your right though, in that we need more information about the war itself. I hope that Alistair manages to keep them out of Ferelden. Orlais could use the situation as an excuses to invade if he granted freedom to the Ferelden Circle. Would be curious to see Loghain reaction to this.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .

[maxernst]

One thing to consider about the lyrium trade is that it all comes through the gates of Orzammar. It would seem logical for the Templars to try to seize control of the Frostback Mountain passes. The Chantry can't really do anything about that by themselves. They would need Celene or Alistair to be willing to fight the Templars on their behalf.

[DRTJR]

Celene is probably wrapped around the white divine's finger but Alistair and Anora May take the frostbaack mountains to control the lyrium trade, he who controls the lyrium controls thedas, the Lyrium must flow.

[Sons of Horus]

What about Kal-Sharok? Dont they mine lyrium aswell?

[ThePhoenixKing]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MorningBird wrote...

I have to say, I didn't expect there to be any 'middle-ground' concerning the templar vs mage conflict in DA2. In fact, I fully expected an outcome where Hawke would have to choose a side. I was also hoping that the decision wouldn't be as cut and dry as 'Evil Hawke chooses Templars, good Hawke chooses mages'. I wanted there to be compelling reasons to side with both, so props to BioWare on that for a job well done.

I understand WHY people want a middle ground, but really, as much as I liked the Grand Cleric, Elthina was only putting off the inevitable. People seem quick to blame Anders for everything going to shambles at the last minute, but all that transpired was going to happen eventually.

I am going to argue that a middle ground solution was possible, but violence, specifically against Meredith was unavoidable. And no, it was not Grand cleric Ethina that could have made it happen. At best, we get her symbolic support and blessings.

And the reason I say that a middle groudn was possible, is that practically everyone is pissed at Meredith:
- Mages are getting angrier by the minute. Their opposition is natural and doesn't need to be expanded upon. 
- Many Templars within the order are either skeptical of Meredith (like Cullen), or actively resisting her (like Thrask). This is crucial. She has opposition within her own power base.
- The nobility. Many see what Meredith is doing as a power grap, once she essentially kept Kirkwall in limbo, with no viscount.  some noble houses tried to claim the position, but were clamped down hard by Meredith.
- The Guards. We know that Meredith is increasingly encroaching upon the guards and trying to weaken Aveline, whom the Guards love and are very loyal to.  They are not pleased.
- The common people. We hear that many within the common people are getting more and more sympathetic for the plight of mages, because they think Meredith is going too far (and by Chantry standards, she is).

- Potentially, the Chantry itself, or at least Elthina. Either she would have stayed neutral, or would have provided support for the opposition.

All these factions could have been mobalised as an opposition front against Meredith. What it would have required is strong leadership, which is not the Grand Cleric (I was hoping it would have been Hawke).  And it would have been able to stand and remove Meredith, either non-violently (not likely) or violently.
What Anders did, essentially, made that option completely unfeasible.

That said, I don't think that would have been easy. There were obstacles to this. A big one is idiot mages like Grace who need to be wiped out. But I think the Circle and Templar resistance could collaborate to weed out the extremists within their ranks. But it would require very strong and effective leadership.

And that would have simply delt with the symptoms and would not have necessarily offered a permanent solution (in my experience though, there is no such thing).  But ithe stability it would have established might have provided the opportunity of reform. Again, it will depend a lot on the leadership, if they have a sense of vision and if they can sell it. 

That was a great post, I think you were really onto something there. You're right, eventually, Meredith was just going to destroy herself. Even without Elthina's intervention one way or another, eventually she'd do something really stupid, and the groundswell of opposition from so many corners would unite to overthrow her. It would be bloody, yes, but I think it would lead to a better Circle in the long run (aty least in Kirkwall), and an overall more positive outcome then "blow up the Chantry and watch all the dominos fall".

As you so rightly pointed out, by Act III, everyone hated the Templars, and it wouldn't take much to turn the entire city against them, provided they had sufficient leadership. Hell, if you support Orsino at the beginning of the act, a quest opens up where you can help some of the Kirkwall nobility unite and prepare in anticipation of revolting against Meredith. It wouldn't have solved the problems of mage relations across Thedas, and it might not have stopped the war, but in the short term, it would have de-escalated the conflict and offered the potential for a more liberal and humane Circle. Perhaps it would have led to a backlash against the Templars elsewhere; after all, if one chapter of the Order could cause so much trouble in one city, then what's to say the rest of the Order doesn't need checks and balances to restrain their own power? It wouldn't have soloved root causes to these problems, but it would have been something, and far more constructive then what Anders did.

I have to say, even though my headcanon Hawke opposed Meredith at every turn, fought to defend the rights of mages and considered Elthina impotent to the point of neglect, blowing up the Chantry was both the morally incorrect and tactically foolish thing to do. Even when one considers its nature as an act of propaganda of the deed, it's dumb. It turns people's sympathies away from mages, it leaves mages in Circles everywhere facing backlashes (which may force them to turn to blood magic just to survive, ironically enough), and it basically offers up both the Kirkwall Circle mages and the people inside the Chantry as sacrificial lambs. Sticking the murder knife in his back was one of the easiest choices I made in that game.

[Sons of Horus]

Dam, KnightofPhoenix and Thephoenixking are right on the money here.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:28 .

[Ezohiguma]

The ones who control the lyrium are the dwarves. And I think the Chantry would definitely side with the Templars. Why would they side with the mages? There is no reason for them to do so. Mages are dangerous, Andraste knows that, everybody knows that. The Chantry siding with the mages, forsaking their own military arm, is against everything the Chantry stands for.

Also, I smell an Exalted March coming. It's perfect. The entire might of the Chantry unleashed on the heretics. The Divine must declare Exterminatus! Suffer not the mutant to live! The Emperor... errr... Andraste protects.

Yes, I killed Anders for it. Elthina was utterly impotent, but she may have been rather popular with the masses, especially with her "I won't leave" stance. Stupid move from Anders and how many innocent people did he kill with it? There were likely worshippers in the building. Innocent people. He killed them as well. He didn't even seem to care. I wouldn't be surprised if, in Anders'/Justice's twisted little mind, these worshippers were also his enemies and thus he had to kill them anyway.

It's somewhat a pity that I didn't get to cut off his head.

Also, the way I see it, Meredith was under influence of the lyrium idol, which may have simply worsened her distrust in the mages, eventually turning her utterly paranoid like it did it witha certain dwarf. Anders, however, willingly cooperated with a fade creature. Good, bad, irrelevant. He did exactly what every templar, every sister and brother throughout the entire history of the Chantry, warned about. Magic didn't serve him anymore. He served magic. Plus his terrorist attack. I think the Chantry must strike back with full force. And that means Exalted March.

Modifié par Ezohiguma, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:03 .

[Rifneno]

Porenferser wrote...

Yeah, Anders did the right thing if you are someone who likes to play Little Taliban.

The Taliban were religious nuts who thought it their divine right to murder anyone who disagrees with them and force their doctrine on everyone. Oh yeah, and when war was brewing they just shrugged and said God would magically fix everything.

I got news for you buddy. Anders blew up the Thedas Taliban.

Porenferser wrote...

Oh yes, he started a world wide war, things did really get better *wink*

Short-sighted foolishness. I suppose you think it was a mistake taking down Hitler too.

Sons of Horus wrote...

Even if mages do escape they can still be located via the phylactery. In all I think this rebellion may be short lived without more odds being stacked in the mages favour. People seem to forget that the Templar order used to be known as the "Inquisition" and they seem to be going back to their "hunter" role.

It's been going on for three years when Cassandra questions Varric though. It's already well past being short lived.

Sons of Horus wrote...

What about Kal-Sharok? Dont they mine lyrium aswell?

They may, but they're not a reasonable source. Unlike Orzammar, they have no surface access. They're located deep under the Hunterhorn Mountains that border the Anderfels. They were only recently rediscovered after having assumed to have been lost a thousand years ago. That's how difficult it is to get to. They're also understandably a much smaller thaig than Orzammar. Reportedly pretty reclusive as well. Which would make sense since considering they were basically locked in with the darkspawn for eons.

Ezohiguma wrote...

Stupid move from Anders and how many innocent people did he kill with it? There were likely worshippers in the building. Innocent people. He killed them as well. He didn't even seem to care. I wouldn't be surprised if, in Anders'/Justice's twisted little mind, these worshippers were also his enemies and thus he had to kill them anyway.

I don't know why people always say stuff like this. He's obviously sorrowful about it. Just because he felt it needed to be done does NOT mean he didn't care about the innocents. "There's nothing you can say to me that I haven't already said to myself." or better yet, if you scream at him that he's a murderer and their blood is on his hands he just says with a pained look, "I know."

It's somewhat a pity that I didn't get to cut off his head.

I feel the same way about Elthina. Except I wanted to burn her at the stake.

Good, bad, irrelevant. He did exactly what every templar, every sister and brother throughout the entire history of the Chantry, warned about.

Read the spirit healer specialization description. Templars know of spirit healers in the Circle and watch them carefully, not because they're worried the spirit is dangerous but because they're afraid if the mage dealt with a spirit they might also with a demon eventually. But they don't have a problem with spirits themselves. Anders and Justice went bad because... well, nobody really knows. But the primary theory is that it's because Justice was outside of the Fade when they merged.

[stobie]

Tidra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentions how much he hated being Tranquil. The "content persona" is not all it's cracked up to be. He said he hated it.

Lots of people actually forget this.

Would you believe there were actually people complaining that they couldn't stop Anders from "murdering" that "poor tranquil guy"?  I was in awe that anyone, let alone multiple people, could miss the point that hard.  God, I can't even come up with an absurdly exaggerated analogy for how bad that is because everything I think of is an understatement.

People actually have said that? Wow, that's messed up. I mean I understand not condoning suicide necessarily, but the guy is already basically dead...and that was not of his own free will. Killing him was the greatest mercy he could have been shown.

While it was obviously a mercy killing, I have wondered why, after likening it to a beheading which cannot be cured, no one considers that, for a little while, Karl is back to Karl.  It's not like a head can pop back on for a second.  Therefore, it's conceivable that there *is* a cure.  Something had to be in there to come back.  Clearly, however, we're meant to accept that it's permanent.  It's just a bit undercut by *not* being as total as a beheading.

[Kail Ashton]

So murdering a bunch of innocent people to make a point is perfectly ok with you? nice to know where your mental state is at

[Rifneno]

stobie wrote...

While it was obviously a mercy killing, I have wondered why, after likening it to a beheading which cannot be cured, no one considers that, for a little while, Karl is back to Karl.  It's not like a head can pop back on for a second.  Therefore, it's conceivable that there *is* a cure.  Something had to be in there to come back.  Clearly, however, we're meant to accept that it's permanent.  It's just a bit undercut by *not* being as total as a beheading.

It's conceivable that there's a cure, yes. It's extremely unlikely to be found/created soon, let alone made available to these tranquil.

Hmm. Given what happened, I imagine the person's (for lack of a better word) soul is in the Fade at all times and the Rite of Tranquility cuts their connection to the Fade (works as advertised!). Not the best analogy but the closest one to real life would be like a quadriplegic. The spinal cord could be reconnected somehow. In theory. Anyway Janders, being as far as we know a totally unique case of possession (a spirit, not a demon, that was physically in the real world merging with a mage), had an aura that would briefly allow the tranquil to reconnect. Then again, maybe it wasn't brief. Maybe it only faded because Justice went back in the bottle. If that's the case, I imagine it could be reversed as long as the tranquil had an artifact of some kind that allowed reconnection to the Fade. Probably anything that's native to the Fade and was transfered into the real world would do. Easier said than done though. There's only been two known (or even rumored) cases of passing physically between dimensions: the Countress pride demon, one of the most powerful demons in existence did it by accident, and the ancient Tevinter Magisters that the Chantry claims were the first darkspawn. ... Hmm. I wonder if that's why the Chantry tells that story so much. Maybe they know how a tranquility cure could be created and they want to discourage a situation that might unknowningly create one. Err, clearly my mind's wandering too much.