1411 réponses à ce sujet

[schalafi]

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Modifié par schalafi, 15 mars 2011 - 08:15 .

[heretica]

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

AGREED!!!

[erilben]

Zalocx wrote...

Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior?

because they probably remember things like how the knight-commander in DAO  tells you how only the grand cleric of Ferelden can authorize the annulling the circle. The grand clerics are second only to the Divine.

[Velesfray]

It's just the old lady was such a good person...she really didn't deserve what happened...

[fluorine7]

Anders believes freedom for all mages, but he failed to realize there are people who want to belong to the circle. The ultimate freedom is the freedom to choose one way or another. and Anders is forced "freedom from circle" to all mages, and that makes him just the same as the chantry.

And the method used, blowing up a church, no end is great and good enough to justify this means.

[dgcatanisiri]

Zalocx wrote...
Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior? Yes the Chantry controls the Templars but that does not mean every Templar answers to every Chantry Mother. In fact in civic organizations (like religions and governments) that have a militant arm this is hardly ever the case. The US armed forces for example are under the command of the United States government, yet a senator has no ability to order a general living in his state to do what he wants, only the whole Congress alongside the President can do that. Likewise the Crusader orders (like the actual Knights Templar) claimed to be under the Catholic Church, but were not beholden to every bishop or cardinal. If the Pope said something they obayed. If a local Church offical did they respected the advice but did not have to obey. I guess its same with the Templars, by "they answer to the Chantry" it means they answer to the White Divine, a council in Orlais, or the Seekers. Not to every other Revered Mother in the local chantry.

The Templars are supposed to answer to the Chantry. That's all we're told about the power structure, not if there is a council or if the Templars only answer to the Divine. We only know they answer to the Chantry. Elthina is a Grand Cleric, not a low title. She could have at least attempted to tug on Meredith's leash. Even if Meredith would immediately say that she is not the Divine and does not have the authority, it would have been something. But instead, she just said 'the Maker will guide us.' She speaks about using gifts that the Maker has given, but she doesn't use her Maker-given voice to speak. A gesture made that is doomed to failure is still a gesture, a way to show that she is trying to defuse the cause, not the symptom.

Peaceful resistance is a noble goal and I applaud anyone who prefers that path. But this was staying removed from a boiling conflict that needed someone in authority to take a stand. Elthina sat on her fence, and as much as I liked her, by not speaking out in some fashion, she was letting things simmer further and lead to a greater explosion. Her fence-sitting merely delayed and boiled conflicts, rather than resolved them. The ground was cracking open under her feet, and she still didn't want to pick a side.

[fluorine7]

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Very true. I romanced Anders as well, and just can not bring myself to kill him (Sebastian is pissed though...) But I do feel betrayed more than anything when Anders blow up the chantry. He destroyed whatever possibility left for peaceful solution. 

I hope we get to fight Justice in DA 3 and save Anders. 

[Nathan Redgrave]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

(End game spoilers)


Am i the only one who thinks Anders did the right thing by blowing up the chantry? I mean religion is purposly spreading lies to deceive and control people in the false pretense of bringing hope and peace.

Er, Anders didn't blow up the Chantry because of religion, he blew it up because he saw it as the only source of a compromise and wanted to force everyone to pick a side.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is enslaving mages reasonable, JasmoVT? As for their charitable acts, I'm sure we can ask the Dalish how charitable they were sending templars to force religious conversion on elves that, according to the Dalish, started the war between Orlais and the Dales. Considering how the end of the Exalted March lead to the elven religion being made illegal by the Chantry and they forced the city elves to convert to the Chantry...

SpeakingInSilence, you mean Sebastian came back to fight you after he initially left when you sided with Anders? That didn't happen for me. Did you have full rivalry with him?

According to the Dalish indeed.. and they were poor Victims of the chantrys actions and were completely innocent like everybody who has ever lost a war.. Both points of view are bias but you cant hold anything against the chantry regarding that because we simply do not know if they were in the right or wrong

[tom.bleaker]

fluorine7 wrote...

schalafi wrote...

I personally don't think anyone was completely right. The mages and the templars had both good and corrupted people, and it would have been as impossible to separate them as to pick needles out of haystacks. I did not kill Anders, not because I approved of what he did in the end, but because I had romanced him, and felt he had been taken over by Justice without knowing that Justice would become Vengeance. I believe he regretted offering his body to be the host, but was helpless to stop Vengeance after a time. I couldn't blame him any more than I could blame the mages in Origins that were taken over by Uldred. In my opinion he was a victim more than a villain. In this game I think Justice was the real villain.

Very true. I romanced Anders as well, and just can not bring myself to kill him (Sebastian is pissed though...) But I do feel betrayed more than anything when Anders blow up the chantry. He destroyed whatever possibility left for peaceful solution. 

I hope we get to fight Justice in DA 3 and save Anders. 

Except that Anders repeatedly says that he and Justice are not separate beings anymore.  The only Anders you known in DA2 is Andersjustice, not Anders+Justice.  Anders is stiil a villian in DA2.

[Thomas Andresen]

Additionally, I want to point out that, regardless of whether or not you agree with Anders' actions, most people here seem to miss the point of the character. He is not Anders, he is not Justice, he is Vengeance. Oh, sure there is a small trace of what used to be Anders trying to reign in Vengeance. But ultimately, Vengeance is the force behind most every decision he makes, and vengeance is always chaotic, always beyond reason, and always about blood. Archon Hessarian's wife describes it quite accurately during the gauntlet before the Urn of Sacred Ashes. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, the debt of blood must be paid in full."

*snip*
Realised halfway through a second, long paragraph this was becoming a rather personal soapbox, rather than something we'd want on the forums. Cutting it short there.

[Dean_the_Young]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Zalocx wrote...
Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior? Yes the Chantry controls the Templars but that does not mean every Templar answers to every Chantry Mother. In fact in civic organizations (like religions and governments) that have a militant arm this is hardly ever the case. The US armed forces for example are under the command of the United States government, yet a senator has no ability to order a general living in his state to do what he wants, only the whole Congress alongside the President can do that. Likewise the Crusader orders (like the actual Knights Templar) claimed to be under the Catholic Church, but were not beholden to every bishop or cardinal. If the Pope said something they obayed. If a local Church offical did they respected the advice but did not have to obey. I guess its same with the Templars, by "they answer to the Chantry" it means they answer to the White Divine, a council in Orlais, or the Seekers. Not to every other Revered Mother in the local chantry.

The Templars are supposed to answer to the Chantry. That's all we're told about the power structure, not if there is a council or if the Templars only answer to the Divine. We only know they answer to the Chantry. Elthina is a Grand Cleric, not a low title. She could have at least attempted to tug on Meredith's leash. Even if Meredith would immediately say that she is not the Divine and does not have the authority, it would have been something. But instead, she just said 'the Maker will guide us.' She speaks about using gifts that the Maker has given, but she doesn't use her Maker-given voice to speak. A gesture made that is doomed to failure is still a gesture, a way to show that she is trying to defuse the cause, not the symptom.

That doesn't counter his point at all, though: what outright power have we been told the Grand Cleric has over the Templar Commander? A Congressman, or even the Secretary of State, are very high civil positions, but they are not in charge of the military.

Moreover, that's in the context of a world in which there are the understandings (and means to enforce) strictly dilleneated heirachial relationships. For a number of reasons, those did not exist in detail in earlier ages. The civil-military relationship of the hear and now was and has never been a constant or unquestioned thing: the military weilding more power than the politicians who are nominally in charge of them is not an unusual occurance, even in largely progressive societies.

For better and for worse, the Grand Cleric wasn't the most powerful person in the city, anymore than the Viscount was. Meredith is, whatever the arrangement should have been, and everyone has to work around the fact.

Peaceful resistance is a noble goal and I applaud anyone who prefers that path. But this was staying removed from a boiling conflict that needed someone in authority to take a stand. Elthina sat on her fence, and as much as I liked her, by not speaking out in some fashion, she was letting things simmer further and lead to a greater explosion. Her fence-sitting merely delayed and boiled conflicts, rather than resolved them. The ground was cracking open under her feet, and she still didn't want to pick a side.

Congratulations: you've just described neutrality and temperence.

How much Elthina could have resolved a conflict up until that moment she was killed, is highly suspect.

[Dean_the_Young]

erilben wrote...

Zalocx wrote...

Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior?

because they probably remember things like how the knight-commander in DAO  tells you how only the grand cleric of Ferelden can authorize the annulling the circle. The grand clerics are second only to the Divine.

And in most places, that would be true. In most places, the Templars don't weild military, political, and civil power.

In Kirkwall, however, Meredith is the most powerful. The Divine isn't even second most influential: that's the Champion. Whether she even makes top three is questionable.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[ezrafetch]

For all we know, the normal structure of the Chantry (Templars submit to Grand Cleric, etc.) could just be simply distorted in Kirkwall thanks to Meredith. You look at DA:O and sure, there's a Circle and all but it hardly seems that Fereldan Templars are the bloodthirsty fools that Kirkwall's are (Greagoir actually seems like a noble chap). In the early cutscenes you already get the sense that the Templars run Kirkwall to begin with. Not even the viscount had any real say. That's my impression.

I think Anders's goal was distorted by Justice/Vengeance, and pushed it too far. Anders should answer for his crime of harming civilians. That being said, I understand the mage's plight and tend to side that way, however. Though I may side with the Templars on my current mage playthrough...

[tom.bleaker]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Zalocx wrote...
Also why do people feel that the Grand Cleric was Merideth's superior? Yes the Chantry controls the Templars but that does not mean every Templar answers to every Chantry Mother. In fact in civic organizations (like religions and governments) that have a militant arm this is hardly ever the case. The US armed forces for example are under the command of the United States government, yet a senator has no ability to order a general living in his state to do what he wants, only the whole Congress alongside the President can do that. Likewise the Crusader orders (like the actual Knights Templar) claimed to be under the Catholic Church, but were not beholden to every bishop or cardinal. If the Pope said something they obayed. If a local Church offical did they respected the advice but did not have to obey. I guess its same with the Templars, by "they answer to the Chantry" it means they answer to the White Divine, a council in Orlais, or the Seekers. Not to every other Revered Mother in the local chantry.

The Templars are supposed to answer to the Chantry. That's all we're told about the power structure, not if there is a council or if the Templars only answer to the Divine. We only know they answer to the Chantry. Elthina is a Grand Cleric, not a low title. She could have at least attempted to tug on Meredith's leash. Even if Meredith would immediately say that she is not the Divine and does not have the authority, it would have been something. But instead, she just said 'the Maker will guide us.' She speaks about using gifts that the Maker has given, but she doesn't use her Maker-given voice to speak. A gesture made that is doomed to failure is still a gesture, a way to show that she is trying to defuse the cause, not the symptom.

Peaceful resistance is a noble goal and I applaud anyone who prefers that path. But this was staying removed from a boiling conflict that needed someone in authority to take a stand. Elthina sat on her fence, and as much as I liked her, by not speaking out in some fashion, she was letting things simmer further and lead to a greater explosion. Her fence-sitting merely delayed and boiled conflicts, rather than resolved them. The ground was cracking open under her feet, and she still didn't want to pick a side.

A fair point, but even "culpable" neutrality dosen't warrant what was done to her. Besides, I think it is clear that if she did take a stand she would only provoke the other side to bloodshed. You can't mediate a dispute by showing bias. 

[Annihilator27]

AlexXIV wrote...

Envor44 wrote...

mc.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20110314-c6e0a.png

lol

Lmao, I felt like that sometimes when all the hearts started popping up.

[Dean_the_Young]

ezrafetch wrote...

For all we know, the normal structure of the Chantry (Templars submit to Grand Cleric, etc.) could just be simply distorted in Kirkwall thanks to Meredith. You look at DA:O and sure, there's a Circle and all but it hardly seems that Fereldan Templars are the bloodthirsty fools that Kirkwall's are (Greagoir actually seems like a noble chap). In the early cutscenes you already get the sense that the Templars run Kirkwall to begin with. Not even the viscount had any real say. That's my impression.

I think Anders's goal was distorted by Justice/Vengeance, and pushed it too far. Anders should answer for his crime of harming civilians. That being said, I understand the mage's plight and tend to side that way, however. Though I may side with the Templars on my current mage playthrough...

Not just an impression: a fact of the lore, in character and out. It wasn't the Viscount who was making the rules about letting in refugees or turning them away: it was Meredith, even as far back as the prologue.

[schalafi]

I just bet that in DA3 this will somehow be resolved, Too many of us felt we were left hanging in the wind in this game. If this was Bioware's intention, it really worked, so I hope they have a way to bring it all together in the third game.

[KenKenpachi]

Wow your one twisted SoB OP, by your logic can I just burn you alive while you sleep? After all there are no innocents, and you will sooner or later wrong me.

[TheRevanchist]

Well as screwed up as all this is...it sems like sideing with the Templars is considered the "bad" thing to do based upon the conversations between Varric and Cassandra after the Meredith fight. Sideing with the Mages Cassandra hails him as a hero and thinks hes this immortal bad ass. Her opinions abit different siding with the Templars...so is Varrics reactions to her reasonings. Sideing with the MAges he says "In that case I wish I could help you". Sideing with the Templars he says "In that case I'm afraid I can't help you". Which to me says two very different things. Which really is a damn shame because I have a hard time justifying the defense of the mages seeing as they all turn to blood magic so readily. I supported the Templars...but disapproved of Meredith personaly for her extreame views...and Cullen...of all people...shared my views and supported me and all the Templars followed suit...leaving Meredith to stand alone. What Anders did is totaly uncalled for...I always hated him but this just gave me the even more reason to and did not hesitate to kill him where he stood. I think this game only proves just now nessasary Chantry oversight is. The relationship between the Templars and the Mages of the Ferelden Circle seems very acceptable in my opinion. Tevinter is proof enough that Mages cannot be trusted to watch themselves.

Like Fenris said...once long ago Tevinter was just like everywhere else... once they was able to govern themselves they devolved back into their horrific and unnaccetable ways. And the excuse "But the Dalish and Rivians live just fine." How do you know? Clearly from this game it is clear Dalish Keepers become possesed from time to time...and the whole clan hunts them down. It takes the whole damn clan to hunt down the one Keeper. Secondly Rivain seems to be a very primitive country...I doubt you would hear about anything that transpired there. I still firmly believe Mages deserve better treatment...but autonomy to govern themselves? Absolutly not...I feel that can only end badly.  

Modifié par kylecouch, 15 mars 2011 - 09:07 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Aithieel wrote...

Thomas but think about one thing; the game world is different than ours. Chantry wasn't just neutral. It always taught that mages should be locked in cirles becouse are extremely dangerous.

As I said, I see connections. It doesn't mean that anyone else sees exactly the same, or even remotely. I am biased against religion, and perhaps even more so against Christianity, so it's only natural that, when I see flaws in a fictious religion, I jump to conclusions and create similarities between the two.

For example, many would say that there is no sense in comparing Andraste to Jesus, but I would say that there is, as much as it makes sense to compare any elements of any fictious setting with the real world. But again, that is my opinion, and my interpretation, and I'm sure there are more of those than there are fans of these games.

[vigna]

Veronica Ward wrote...

But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

It is also heavily implied that Andraste was in fact a mage, possibly an abomination herself (much like Anders) It stands to reason (In the land of dragons and magical pantaloons) that her ashes might hold some residual power.

What about the characters that aren't mages that do horrible things all on their own without a
demon whispering in thier ears. Isabella stands out to me and she's on your team! Meredith was not a "cow", she was a tyrant using her position to justify it.

The Grand Cleric should have picked the wrong side from my perspective so she got what she deserved.
If you sit back and maintain the status quo, when that status quo is dehumanizing and exploiting a group of people for circumstances beyond thier control. . . well you reap what you sow.

You could be right about Andraste..or she could be chosen by the Maker, and the fade beings are just generally evil or at minimum self serving and selfish..I dunno. that seems unclear since beings like Justice exist.

I know the templars are generally jerks as are many people in game. I sided with the mages begrudingly, because i didn't like people being judged as  a whole instead of as individulas. the mages in the game were horrible for the most part-no matter their excuse they took the easy way out of their suffering. The Templars were no better with their  strong arm tactics and blind judgement and duty.

One of the problems or great things (depending on your personality) about the game was that every decision was based in gray areas, and Hawk had to jump to a side that wasn't without their own faults. The companion quests were also many times like this. Fenris wanted to kill everyone, and couldn't move on without hate.  Anders was going insane because of Justice, and his judgement suffered. Merrill and the keeper were both wrong, Isabella was very wrong, but was doing it out of self-preservation.  Aveline questioned herself too much, and was sometimes weak without giving her a push. Sebastion put his needs before the needs of his people.
Varric seemed the only normal person without too many glowing faults.

[TheRevanchist]

vigna wrote...

Veronica Ward wrote...

But in the DA world Andraste's ashes cured people who were being killed by demons? How is that lying or deceit? every mage you encountered was a blood mage...honestly, I had  a hard time not siding with meredith. If she wasn't such a cow and I wasn't romancing merrill i would've slaughtered the kirkwall mages without hesitation.


Seriously, every other mage you met was possesed.

It is also heavily implied that Andraste was in fact a mage, possibly an abomination herself (much like Anders) It stands to reason (In the land of dragons and magical pantaloons) that her ashes might hold some residual power.

What about the characters that aren't mages that do horrible things all on their own without a
demon whispering in thier ears. Isabella stands out to me and she's on your team! Meredith was not a "cow", she was a tyrant using her position to justify it.

The Grand Cleric should have picked the wrong side from my perspective so she got what she deserved.
If you sit back and maintain the status quo, when that status quo is dehumanizing and exploiting a group of people for circumstances beyond thier control. . . well you reap what you sow.

You could be right about Andraste..or she could be chosen by the Maker, and the fade beings are just generally evil or at minimum self serving and selfish..I dunno. that seems unclear since beings like Justice exist.

I know the templars are generally jerks as are many people in game. I sided with the mages begrudingly, because i didn't like people being judged as  a whole instead of as individulas. the mages in the game were horrible for the most part-no matter their excuse they took the easy way out of their suffering. The Templars were no better with their  strong arm tactics and blind judgement and duty.

One of the problems or great things (depending on your personality) about the game was that every decision was based in gray areas, and Hawk had to jump to a side that wasn't without their own faults. The companion quests were also many times like this. Fenris wanted to kill everyone, and couldn't move on without hate.  Anders was going insane because of Justice, and his judgement suffered. Merrill and the keeper were both wrong, Isabella was very wrong, but was doing it out of self-preservation.  Aveline questioned herself too much, and was sometimes weak without giving her a push. Sebastion put his needs before the needs of his people.
Varric seemed the only normal person without too many glowing faults.

Please explain to me how the Keeper was wrong? She was correct...Merrill did not understand the dangers and failed to listen to someone who did no matter how much she was warned. Merrill was nothing but a thick headed fool who refused to be wrong. The Keeper...finally realizeing Merrill would never see reason...decided to save Merrill from herself out of love for her...defending her like a mother would her child...which is indeed her only mistake...which might be what you mean. Because Merrill should have paid for that mistake herself due to her arrogance regarding the issue.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

jklinders wrote...

I don't really have anything to add here save that the OP has not seen fit to post in here to support his views since his first post. Successful troll is very very successful.

Ive hadnt have time to get back to this before now. Ill admit i exaggerated abit and used a bit much hyperbole and because of that it may have seemed like i was trolling.

Ive read alot of responses, and i agree that killing innocents makes you a terrorist and such. But... If killing innocents is unavoidable to get through change, then it is simply about choosing the lesser evil. Inaction is also a form of evil. Is watching someone get beaten up a good thing?

Sure mages are dangerous, but they are MORE dangerous as slaves to the templars than they are free. Lets say magic is like walking around with a gun constantly, sure you have the potential of being dangerous, but what really makes such a thing dangerous even more, is threathening them and cornering them.

Another belief i have is a quote by David stevens that goes "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes in it. The truth is the truth even if noone believes in it" real world or in Thedas, superstition and such are not virtues. Mindlessly surrendering to dogmas, tradition, and authority is not progress. Karl marx has a nice quote also that goes "Religion is the opium of the people"

Do you guys think that believing in the maker with no empirical evidence is healthy? That lying to a child to brainwash him is good?

I stand resolute that Anders did the right thing. He forced change, sure lots will die, but living according to the chantrys lies is a slow death far more cruel.

[MisterJB]

Veronica Ward wrote...

It is also heavily implied that Andraste was in fact a mage, possibly an abomination herself (much like Anders) It stands to reason (In the land of dragons and magical pantaloons) that her ashes might hold some residual power.

How do you explain the Guardian's near omniscience?