1411 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Kail Ashton wrote...

So murdering a bunch of innocent people to make a point is perfectly ok with you? nice to know where your mental state is at

So it's possible to battle a world-dominating empire without any collateral damage.  Nice to know where your understanding of war is.

[Sepewrath]

I would agree, while I wouldn't say its something that should be actively pursued, its an inevitability of war.

When it comes to tranquility, I doubt there's a cure, Karl only came back because he was in close proximity to Justice, having an abomination attached to your hip, probably isn't much of a cure.

[GavrielKay]

Rifneno wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

So murdering a bunch of innocent people to make a point is perfectly ok with you? nice to know where your mental state is at

So it's possible to battle a world-dominating empire without any collateral damage.  Nice to know where your understanding of war is.

Not to mention the Chantry has been raping, beating, Tranquiling and otherwise wrecking the lives of innocent mages.  So first blood was spilled by the Chantry.

[Rifneno]

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

So murdering a bunch of innocent people to make a point is perfectly ok with you? nice to know where your mental state is at

So it's possible to battle a world-dominating empire without any collateral damage.  Nice to know where your understanding of war is.

Not to mention the Chantry has been raping, beating, Tranquiling and otherwise wrecking the lives of innocent mages.  So first blood was spilled by the Chantry.

But Anders killed billions of orphans and then laughed about it!  Or so the Chantry apologists would have everyone believe.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Kail Ashton wrote...

So murdering a bunch of innocent people to make a point is perfectly ok with you? nice to know where your mental state is at

So it's possible to battle a world-dominating empire without any collateral damage.  Nice to know where your understanding of war is.

Not to mention the Chantry has been raping, beating, Tranquiling and otherwise wrecking the lives of innocent mages.  So first blood was spilled by the Chantry.

But Anders killed billions of orphans and then laughed about it!  Or so the Chantry apologists would have everyone believe.

When a mage kills someone, it's a crime. When a Templar kills some, it's only business.

[stobie]

So - Anders could be really busy, hiring or donating himself out en masse to Tranquil everywhere, but it could work!

But I don't believe in the inevitability of war, however many times it has happened the past. People & tribes & govts are flawed, & they fail at diplomacy, & they fail at resolving the conflicts, so they kill each other until someone concedes or dies off. That just doesn't seem like the best solution, & more than a few times, more peaceful methods have worked. (hi, Gandhi) War is, it seems to me, a failure of everything else. It's easy to say, 'Whhhat, we shouldn't have entered ww2, or averted the Civil War???' and I'm not arguing the outcomes of either. Just - it's not inevitable. Because people are so eager to launch into righteous wars, you can't really say there was no other way. But I guess we're just a killer species.

As for Anders, I don't really get how he thinks this will work. People in his world are scared of mages, he feels that can't be altered, so he makes it worse. If they lose, it won't go well. If they win, how do they not become tyrants themselves, as apparently has happened in the DA world already? Some templars are misusing some mages horribly - so he kills an old woman. Brilliant. Had he allowed Hawke to clear the building, then blown it up as a symbol, ok, but I would argue that she didn't deserve that kind of death. She was trying her best, in the world as she knew it.

Even so, I couldn't bring myself to finish a templar-friendly attempt. I got to the part where Meredith decides to kill Hawke, & suddenly, Hawke is shocked. "What??? Not ME!" I ended up hating Hawke just for that, & I offed her & restarted.

[Rifneno]

stobie wrote...

But I don't believe in the inevitability of war, however many times it has happened the past. People & tribes & govts are flawed, & they fail at diplomacy, & they fail at resolving the conflicts, so they kill each other until someone concedes or dies off. That just doesn't seem like the best solution, & more than a few times, more peaceful methods have worked. (hi, Gandhi) War is, it seems to me, a failure of everything else. It's easy to say, 'Whhhat, we shouldn't have entered ww2, or averted the Civil War???' and I'm not arguing the outcomes of either. Just - it's not inevitable. Because people are so eager to launch into righteous wars, you can't really say there was no other way. But I guess we're just a killer species.

"Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions." - Gandhi. ... Yeah, I'm gonna have to pass on taking that guy's advice.

The Chantry has been oppressing mages in Ferelden, the Free Marches, Antiva, Orlais, Neverra, Rivain, and the Anderfels, that's 7 nations for roughly 900 years. Think about the scope of that for a moment. It's totally absurd to think this could have been resolved without bloodshed and no one has accomplished it in that time. You're damn right it's inevitable, and I imagine that's why you have to call a 900 years coming backlash "eager."

As for Anders, I don't really get how he thinks this will work. People in his world are scared of mages, he feels that can't be altered, so he makes it worse. If they lose, it won't go well. If they win, how do they not become tyrants themselves, as apparently has happened in the DA world already? Some templars are misusing some mages horribly - so he kills an old woman. Brilliant. Had he allowed Hawke to clear the building, then blown it up as a symbol, ok, but I would argue that she didn't deserve that kind of death. She was trying her best, in the world as she knew it.

Even so, I couldn't bring myself to finish a templar-friendly attempt. I got to the part where Meredith decides to kill Hawke, & suddenly, Hawke is shocked. "What??? Not ME!" I ended up hating Hawke just for that, & I offed her & restarted.

An old woman?! Screw it. I've had my fill of explaining the obvious for one day. My blood pressure can't handle this.

[SDxBrandimus]

I believe what Anders did was a bit extreme but it made sense... He essentially eliminated the middle man that both sides were trying to use as a shield against the other. He was only eliminating the cause for compromise as he said. Does this make what he did right? It most certainly does not. I do remember him saying earlier in the game as well in a traveling dialogue with Isabella that he wouldn't kill innocent people for a cause ' so it kinda shows Anders is a bit two faced in that regard. If it had only been Grand Cleric Elthina that had died I would have been fine with it... She was too arrogant to me because when you and Sebastian go to warn her she simply responds "Who would want to hurt me." or something along the lines of that... I believe she could have helped to prevent the full scale civil war that had started but I don't think she had as much control over the two sides as people may think. She did what she could at times but it seemed she just looked the other way and supported the Templars more than the Mages as the Templars are a chain of the Chantry as they support the Maker. Bottom line... Anders decision was along the lines of terrorism but you need to think of it from his point of view. What a real terrorist does isn't terrorism in his eyes but his BELIEFS. In our eyes yes it is terrorism but you can't just reside in that. I don't enjoy the fact Anders killed many innocent people but Elthina sucked...

[Rifneno]

SDxBrandimus wrote...

It most certainly does not. I do remember him saying earlier in the game as well in a traveling dialogue with Isabella that he wouldn't kill innocent people for a cause ' so it kinda shows Anders is a bit two faced in that regard.

Actually, it was the opposite. It was pretty foreshadowing really.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

He was agreeing with her, that they deserve justice as well. This is, arguably, why he offers himself up for execution without a fight. He knows he's done wrong by them and he's willing to face the consequences, but he still felt it had to be done for the greater good.

[SDxBrandimus]

Ah okay I wasn't paying attention to the dialogue I just heard it while traveling. I take back my Two Faced remark then. Thanks for posting the dialogue Rifneno.

Modifié par SDxBrandimus, 24 juillet 2011 - 02:03 .

[SDxBrandimus]

Rifneno wrote...

The Chantry has been oppressing mages in Ferelden, the Free Marches, Antiva, Orlais, Neverra, Rivain, and the Anderfels, that's 7 nations for roughly 900 years. Think about the scope of that for a moment. It's totally absurd to think this could have been resolved without bloodshed and no one has accomplished it in that time. You're damn right it's inevitable, and I imagine that's why you have to call a 900 years coming backlash "eager."

This is a perfect reasoning behind the Civil War between the mages and templars. It just so happens that the time for "backlash" came when it escalated because of a combination of Meredith's extremist beliefs and then the pure lyrium idol found in the Deep Roads.

Now it's not to say it had to come to bloodshed but I do believe it would have been near impossible to avoid. Meredith had been cracking down on the mages in an unjust way. Of course if you wanted to defend the mages everything you are fighting for is essentially rendered useless because of Orsino's actions. I can understand why Orsino did what he did but he ruined every argument you had that the mages were not corrupt because if even the First Enchanter is dabbling in Blood Magic then the Templars are more than likely going to use that to there advantage in getting rid of the mages. I just like the very politically charged story of this game. As rushed as some may believe it was the Main Storyline is quite fun if you can understand it from a political point of view as well as understand why everything is happening.

[DPSSOC]

stobie wrote...
As for Anders, I don't really get how he thinks this will work.

He doesn't, think I mean.  We have to accept that Anders is for all intents and purposes insane.  The presence of Justice has created a powerful drive to avenge injustice.  Anders has been fighting this drive and reigning it in for at least 7 years and he finally lost.  He wasn't able to hold back and he needed to do something, anything, about the treatment of mages in Kirkwall and abroad.  He didn't have a plan, in fact he fully expects to die, he just needed to do something.

stobie wrote...
People in his world are scared of mages, he feels that can't be altered, so he makes it worse. If they lose, it won't go well. If they win, how do they not become tyrants themselves, as apparently has happened in the DA world already?

Good question, one could hope that enough clear heads survive the war to recognize the cyclical nature of oppression.  Alternatively the need for non-mage allies to take on the Templars and whatever allies they have may mellow the, "All non-mages must suffer for our pain," mentality.

stobie wrote...
Some templars are misusing some mages horribly - so he kills an old woman. Brilliant. Had he allowed Hawke to clear the building, then blown it up as a symbol, ok, but I would argue that she didn't deserve that kind of death. She was trying her best, in the world as she knew it.

A rather excessive over-simplification of the issue.  Elthina wasn't just some old woman she was an old woman with the power, and responsibility, to ensure the Templars conducted themselves according to Chantry law.  She failed to do that; either through inaction, incompetence, or inability; and was attempting to mediate the conflict.  While this attempt is certainly commendable it's unacceptable to Anders because all it does is draw out the sufferring of mages under Meredith and, at best, results in a return to the less abusive status quo that he can't stand anymore.

The Chantry wasn't his target, if he'd been going for a symbolic strike the Twins or the statues outside of the Gallows, or any of the symbols of slavery and oppression in Kirkwall would have sufficed.  He wanted Elthina gone, with mediation no longer possible it forces the players (not us the players the people involved in the conflict) to take action, one way or another.  Personally I disagree with how he did it (I believe public execution of Elthina with Meredith in attendance would have been sufficient), but I can understand why Elthina, good intentions or no, had to go.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

SDxBrandimus wrote...

It most certainly does not. I do remember him saying earlier in the game as well in a traveling dialogue with Isabella that he wouldn't kill innocent people for a cause ' so it kinda shows Anders is a bit two faced in that regard.

Actually, it was the opposite. It was pretty foreshadowing really.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

He was agreeing with her, that they deserve justice as well. This is, arguably, why he offers himself up for execution without a fight. He knows he's done wrong by them and he's willing to face the consequences, but he still felt it had to be done for the greater good.

I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

SDxBrandimus wrote...

It most certainly does not. I do remember him saying earlier in the game as well in a traveling dialogue with Isabella that he wouldn't kill innocent people for a cause ' so it kinda shows Anders is a bit two faced in that regard.

Actually, it was the opposite. It was pretty foreshadowing really.

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

He was agreeing with her, that they deserve justice as well. This is, arguably, why he offers himself up for execution without a fight. He knows he's done wrong by them and he's willing to face the consequences, but he still felt it had to be done for the greater good.

in the words of Cassandra: Bull****! Anders*like any other terrorist* saw himself as a martyr that would inspire other mages to rise up(fortunately it was HAWKE who inspired both the mages AND Templers to rebel not that self righteous murdering bastard*sorry I REALLY hate Anders*) in that regard he's no better than Petrice.

[Shadow Fox]

Garath1988 wrote...

If I was a mage, living in a world where a religion held by the vast majority of people not only condoned but by itself was responsible for the imprisonment and killing(tranquilizing) of a subgroup of people who were born a certain way and never given any choice, you're damn right I would think he did the right thing. Anders' goal was never to strike out against the religion, I don't think he could care less about the precious Maker, but the ruthless oppression of mages had to be stopped. It was very obvious he was beyond remorseful for the civilians, but the Grand Cleric had to die to force a rebellion. Had Meredith searched the tower she would have found the necromancy research in Orsino's offices and executed every mage without them ever having a chance to fight back.
Anders is right, rather die fighting an oppresive ideology than to be murdered in your sleep for something you did not choose to be.

The problem is that mages are not as blameless or innocent as they'd like people to think just ask someone like Fenris and not all mages see the Circle as a prison infact some saw it as the only thing keeping then from turning into monsters.

Then it would have been on Orsino's head for Condoning blood magic instead of protecting a psychopath he should have given Meredith the info WHEN HE GOT IT and put a stop to it, it would have saved countless innocents and cast his mages in a more positive light.

[Rifneno]

SDxBrandimus wrote...

I can understand why Orsino did what he did but he ruined every argument you had that the mages were not corrupt because if even the First Enchanter is dabbling in Blood Magic then the Templars are more than likely going to use that to there advantage in getting rid of the mages.

I don't know why so many people think Orsino winding up an abomination meant something about all mages. How many national leaders or heads of powerful organizations aren't corrupt? Corrupt and politician are practically synonyms.

DPSSOC wrote...

He wasn't able to hold back and he needed to do something, anything, about the treatment of mages in Kirkwall and abroad. He didn't have a plan, in fact he fully expects to die, he just needed to do something.

I disagree. He certainly had a plan. It worked out pretty much to a T, too. ****** off the Chantry & templars so they force the mage's hands in self-defense and the mages have to fight for their freedom.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

Eh. While Isabela was hardly blameless, she's not responsible for the fact the Arishok was a mass murdering piece of ****. He made that choice on his own, because the "mighty" hornhead omnigeneral couldn't handle a few farmers with pitchforks hating the Qunari for that whole "conquer the world and destroy free will" thing.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

in the words of Cassandra: Bull****! Anders*like any other terrorist* saw himself as a martyr that would inspire other mages to rise up(fortunately it was HAWKE who inspired both the mages AND Templers to rebel not that self righteous murdering bastard*sorry I REALLY hate Anders*) in that regard he's no better than Petrice.

My eyes hurt from rolling.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The problem is that mages are not as blameless or innocent as they'd like people to think just ask someone like Fenris and not all mages see the Circle as a prison infact some saw it as the only thing keeping then from turning into monsters.

Then it would have been on Orsino's head for Condoning blood magic instead of protecting a psychopath he should have given Meredith the info WHEN HE GOT IT and put a stop to it, it would have saved countless innocents and cast his mages in a more positive light.

1. That's the justification a lot of KKK members use too. "That minority isn't innocent, just look at this person that was wronged by one of them!"
2. Pay attention to the story, maybe you'll figure out why Orsino turning in Quentin would have done pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Garath1988 wrote...

If I was a mage, living in a world where a religion held by the vast majority of people not only condoned but by itself was responsible for the imprisonment and killing(tranquilizing) of a subgroup of people who were born a certain way and never given any choice, you're damn right I would think he did the right thing. Anders' goal was never to strike out against the religion, I don't think he could care less about the precious Maker, but the ruthless oppression of mages had to be stopped. It was very obvious he was beyond remorseful for the civilians, but the Grand Cleric had to die to force a rebellion. Had Meredith searched the tower she would have found the necromancy research in Orsino's offices and executed every mage without them ever having a chance to fight back.
Anders is right, rather die fighting an oppresive ideology than to be murdered in your sleep for something you did not choose to be.

The problem is that mages are not as blameless or innocent as they'd like people to think just ask someone like Fenris and not all mages see the Circle as a prison infact some saw it as the only thing keeping then from turning into monsters.

Then it would have been on Orsino's head for Condoning blood magic instead of protecting a psychopath he should have given Meredith the info WHEN HE GOT IT and put a stop to it, it would have saved countless innocents and cast his mages in a more positive light.

Countless innocents? Not really. It would have saved three or four women. Compared to the scores of mages he managed to shield from Meredith. Some of them might have been blood mages, but what about the many that were not? Had Orsino given Meredith the information, dozens of mages would have been made Tranquil or killed. The fact is that it was impossible for him to cooperate with Meredith. She never treated mages like equals or colleagues. She wasn't interested in them being upstanding citizens. In her mind, they never could be; they could only ever be compliant criminals. If anything was to be done, it would have been done in her favor, i.e. she might have captured Quentin, but she would have cut her way through the entire Circle to get him.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 24 juillet 2011 - 04:03 .

[Sepewrath]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

Why? She's absolutely right. Justice is nothing more than ideal, because justice isn't something preserved for the righteous so to say. Anyone who is wronged can seek justice, that's just how people are. Look at the endgame situation, Anders swore this attack on the Chantry was seeking justice for the oppressed mages. Then Meredith going to execute every mage in the city deemed it as justice, see the problem with the idea. Justice is a good idea, but in practice, it often has a way of dragging other people into it.

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

SDxBrandimus wrote...

I can understand why Orsino did what he did but he ruined every argument you had that the mages were not corrupt because if even the First Enchanter is dabbling in Blood Magic then the Templars are more than likely going to use that to there advantage in getting rid of the mages.

I don't know why so many people think Orsino winding up an abomination meant something about all mages. How many national leaders or heads of powerful organizations aren't corrupt? Corrupt and politician are practically synonyms.

DPSSOC wrote...

He wasn't able to hold back and he needed to do something, anything, about the treatment of mages in Kirkwall and abroad. He didn't have a plan, in fact he fully expects to die, he just needed to do something.

I disagree. He certainly had a plan. It worked out pretty much to a T, too. ****** off the Chantry & templars so they force the mage's hands in self-defense and the mages have to fight for their freedom.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

Eh. While Isabela was hardly blameless, she's not responsible for the fact the Arishok was a mass murdering piece of ****. He made that choice on his own, because the "mighty" hornhead omnigeneral couldn't handle a few farmers with pitchforks hating the Qunari for that whole "conquer the world and destroy free will" thing.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

in the words of Cassandra: Bull****! Anders*like any other terrorist* saw himself as a martyr that would inspire other mages to rise up(fortunately it was HAWKE who inspired both the mages AND Templers to rebel not that self righteous murdering bastard*sorry I REALLY hate Anders*) in that regard he's no better than Petrice.

My eyes hurt from rolling.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The problem is that mages are not as blameless or innocent as they'd like people to think just ask someone like Fenris and not all mages see the Circle as a prison infact some saw it as the only thing keeping then from turning into monsters.

Then it would have been on Orsino's head for Condoning blood magic instead of protecting a psychopath he should have given Meredith the info WHEN HE GOT IT and put a stop to it, it would have saved countless innocents and cast his mages in a more positive light.

1. That's the justification a lot of KKK members use too. "That minority isn't innocent, just look at this person that was wronged by one of them!"
2. Pay attention to the story, maybe you'll figure out why Orsino turning in Quentin would have done pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

True or false?  if you opt to kill him he says the sooner he dies the sooner his name can live on to inspire others?


1. Nice compare me to a fanactical group with no real justifacation for they're actions you're real smart you are and also wrong as I hardly consider Tevinter a "minority"

2. Funny because what I saw was almost every mage even the ones you saved going out of they're way to prove her right.

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

True or false?  if you opt to kill him he says the sooner he dies the sooner his name can live on to inspire others?


1. Nice compare me to a fanactical group with no real justifacation for they're actions you're real smart you are and also wrong as I hardly consider Tevinter a "minority"

2. Funny because what I saw was almost every mage even the ones you saved going out of they're way to prove her right.

It's called "manipulation."

1. Everyone in Tevinter is a mage now. Wow. I wonder when Fenris gave up his magic. Did he check it at the border? Anyway, I stand by the statement that that's the same ******-poor justification racists use. If you think racism is wrong, it's only because society has told it to you and you didn't bother questioning it. Because the concept of "judging the whole by some bad apples is wrong" is clearly very, very lost on you.

2. Two reasons for that. One is retro-justification. Basically, you're calling someone a cold-blooded murderer for shooting a mugger that's charging at him with a knife. Oddly enough, when the templars are trying to kill every mage in the damn city, they try to fight back with the only magic templars are vulnerable to. It's a shocker, I know, but people try to do more damage rather than less in a fight. The second is the Enigma of Kirkwall codexes. The same self-righteous douches who want to kill all the mages because some went crazy are the same people that locked all the mages in a giant vortex of insanity.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Sepewrath wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

Why? She's absolutely right. Justice is nothing more than ideal, because justice isn't something preserved for the righteous so to say. Anyone who is wronged can seek justice, that's just how people are. Look at the endgame situation, Anders swore this attack on the Chantry was seeking justice for the oppressed mages. Then Meredith going to execute every mage in the city deemed it as justice, see the problem with the idea. Justice is a good idea, but in practice, it often has a way of dragging other people into it.

Because it came from a woman who spent her entire life propagating criminality. Harping about the nonexistence of justice as a practical consideration becomes hypocritical when the person talking is an utterly selfish individual. How many more people died, how many social institutions were destablized because one day Isabela couldn't keep her hands off what shouldn't be touched. Her response to the fact that she alone is ultimately responsible for causing the cluster**** that claimed half the city. "I moved on." Yeah, what an example. She should have been hung, right after the Arishok drew his last breath.

[Red Viking]

Anders murdered a bunch of people for his precious cause and I hope he's burning in the Dragon Age equivalent of Hell I sent him to.  I used to merely condemn his actions and refused to feel sorry for him.  But now? 

I'm Norwegian and now, I flat out hate the guy.

I realize that this whole thing with Anders and the massacre in Norway is pure coincidence, but Anders' in-game actions simply hit too close to home now.

Modifié par Red Viking, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[esper]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
I stopped taking Isabela seriously when she started yammering about there being no justice in the world. This coming from a woman whose self-centered thievery nearly cost everyone in Kirkwall their lives. Yeah, if the world wasn't just to begin with, she sure as hell wasn't making it any better. Selfish *****. If only the Arishok had asked for the tome and her head before ransacking half the city. I'd have been happy to comply if it meant he would leave.

Why? She's absolutely right. Justice is nothing more than ideal, because justice isn't something preserved for the righteous so to say. Anyone who is wronged can seek justice, that's just how people are. Look at the endgame situation, Anders swore this attack on the Chantry was seeking justice for the oppressed mages. Then Meredith going to execute every mage in the city deemed it as justice, see the problem with the idea. Justice is a good idea, but in practice, it often has a way of dragging other people into it.

Because it came from a woman who spent her entire life propagating criminality. Harping about the nonexistence of justice as a practical consideration becomes hypocritical when the person talking is an utterly selfish individual. How many more people died, how many social institutions were destablized because one day Isabela couldn't keep her hands off what shouldn't be touched. Her response to the fact that she alone is ultimately responsible for causing the cluster**** that claimed half the city. "I moved on." Yeah, what an example. She should have been hung, right after the Arishok drew his last breath.

While I do agree with isabella about the fact that there no such thing as absolute justice in the world, I still don't think what she did can be justified. She stole the book once. All right that was wrong, but she is a thief. She stole it again after knowning that the Arishok was very close to be pushed over the egde. That's just not justifiable. That being said I never hand her over because I think the qun is a very wrong philosohy. I do think, hovewer, that what Isabella did was a hundred times worse than what Anders did.
Isabella stole the tome for fully selfish reasons.
Anders blew up the church so future generations of mages might have a shot of freedom.

[Jugo616]

Red Viking wrote...

Anders murdered a bunch of people for his precious cause and I hope he's burning in the Dragon Age equivalent of Hell I sent him to.  I used to merely condemn his actions and refused to feel sorry for him.  But now? 

I'm Norwegian and now, I flat out hate the guy.

I realize that this whole thing with Anders and the massacre in Norway is pure coincidence, but Anders' in-game actions simply hit too close to home now.

Not only it is absurd, but also the two events is hardly simmilar.What anders did was a political assassination, not just an act designed to cause terror.
And you like it or not - his plan worked out just as it was intended. Compromise was removed and the mage vs templar war begun.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Red Viking wrote...

Anders murdered a bunch of people for his precious cause and I hope he's burning in the Dragon Age equivalent of Hell I sent him to.  I used to merely condemn his actions and refused to feel sorry for him.  But now? 

I'm Norwegian and now, I flat out hate the guy.

I realize that this whole thing with Anders and the massacre in Norway is pure coincidence, but Anders' in-game actions simply hit too close to home now.

My condolesences for the great tragedy you and your countrymen have suffered. Not that I had planned to make any, really, but I'll definitely avoid any references to what's going on in Norway in this thread, I can understand it's a very raw and painful subject.

But, for a moment, let's avoid the moral and ethical questions surrounding Anders' deed, or if the Chantry (as an institution) deserved it, or if Elthina deserved it, or anything like that. When examined as a decision of purely ruthless pragmatism, as something designed to get from Point A (the status quo of the Circles) to Point B (the liberation of mages) in the quickest and most efficient method possible, as a purely goal-centered, consequentalist action, morality be damned, it's still dumb.

It's pretty clear by the time that Act III starts that Meredith is going off the deep end. There is rebellion in her own ranks, the population of Kirkwall (rich and poor, civilian and soldier), with a few exceptions are becoming increasingly sick of the templars, if not genuinely hostile and resisting. They're stepping on everyone's toes, and strutting about like they own the place to boot, which is eroding their popular support quickly. Moreover, Meredith's actions are becoming more and more harsh and tyrannical. Preventing the city from electing a new viscount, sending out roaming death squads to punish the families and supporters of mages, forcibly Tranquilizing Harrowed mages; she's riding roughshod over every law and principle that stands in her way if it means hunting mages.

I think the important point in this is that Meredith has become a tyrant, and as The Stolen Throne put it, "One did not honor tyrants; one appeased them." (pg. 135) The people of Kirkwall do not allow Meredith to do this because they like her, but because they fear her, or they think that no one could effectively stand against her, or they're more scared of mages than they are of her, or they don't want to defy an agent of the Maker, or their sense of moral outrage has yet to eclipse their apathy. With a few possible exceptions (mostly drunks at the Hanged Man, or Fenris), no one is saying, 'You know, that Meredith is really great, she should keep running things."

To get to the poorly-edited point, Meredith's rule is weak, and is becoming weaker by the moment. But how does this invalidate Anders' deed?

Because, eventually the city would have turned on her without the need for Anders to start reading the Anarchist's Cookbook. In Act III, the city is a powder keg of discontent against her; disparite, fearful, but there all the same. Aveline and the guards hate how the templars are trying to subsume them and turn them into cannon fodder, the nobility hate how she's put herself into the viscount's seat. There is some random dialogue from workers on the Docks saying how trade has been slowed with Meredith in power, which is probably not making the city's merchants, bankers and tradesmen all that pleased. No ruler can ever hope to govern effectively or stay in power long under such conditions. Fear is a good tool for keeping people in line, but not keeping them loyal, and if they see an opportunity to live free of that fear, they will take it sooner or later.

Moreover, at the rate Meredith was going, it was only a matter of time before she did something stupid enough to stoke that resentment and turn it into rebellion. Her attempting to search the Circle Tower might not have done it, but eventually, something would have occurred. As well, such an act doesn't have to be particularly massive in the grand scheme of things, it's merely the spark that ignites already existing tensions. To use some real world examples, the 2005 French banlieue riots started in response to several teens being (apparently, it has been disputed) chased into a substation by police and electrocuted, while one of the major events in the history of the Civil Rights Movement in the United States was that of, at its core, a tired, middle-age woman refusing to move to the back of the bus.

(Not to mitigate its impact, or suggest that Rosa Parks was in the wrong, or that segregation wasn't a terrible and utterly inhumane system, but compared to lots of other injustices against American blacks during this period, this specific incident was relatively minor at face value and replicated on numerous occasions. We remember it, and we should, because it was the catalyst for something greater and transformative.)

So the city was close to open rebellion against the templars, and they had a potential leader to guide and direct it in the form of Hawke, and it's likely that Meredith's actions would stain the reputation of the templars across Thedas. As such, in the short term, at least, Anders' bombing was unnecessary. Think of it; the Templar Order humbled by a rebellion against them and shamed by the extreme actions Meredith took to police the mages. All that anger and resentment against the templars could very well translate into sympathy for the mages, as well as stricter guidelines and policies on their jailers. I could definitely see the Chantry forcing the templars to ease up in response, or ensure they have greater safeguards against such abuses of power in the future. If nothing else, it would mean better conditions for the Circle in Kirkwall; the main target of Meredith's persecutions, they would be ideally placed to benefit from the city's sympathy, and establish more humane conditions for themselves.

Would it solve the problems related to the Circles? Maybe. Would it last forever? Debatable. Would it appease Anders/Justice? Definitely not. Would it be a step towards a better future, however tentative? Absolutely!

Moreover, Anders' bombing is inheritely counterproductive. It utterly destroys all that sympathy people have for mages, a feeling that both Cullen and Thrask mention, and it tosses the mages into the cauldron of war without any real organization, warning or plan for victory. Besides, it is only very rarely that the aggressor party in any confrontation maintains the moral high ground, something the mages are going to need to survive, much less win (unless they plan on either enslaving or exterminating the rest of Thedas). Any guerrilla movement, insurgent force or any other group that relies upon unconventional warfare (as the mages certainly will, at least in the opening stages of the war) also relies upon having a sympathetic population in which they can find support and shelter. They're not going to get that now, with Anders having struck the first blow.

That's also why pre-emptive warfare doesn't work; everyone loves the valiant defender standing up to the belligerent bully, but no one sheds any tears for the bully. Once you lose the support of the population, it's exceptionally difficult to get it back, and as a result of Anders, the mages are on the back foot and demonized by all of Thedas. Even Orsino admits it; whatever support they had outside the Circles vanished when the Chantry was destroyed. Anders forced everyone to take sides, all right, but most won't be going to the side he wanted. Thedas would have acted out of pity to help the mages if Meredith went on an unprovoked rampage, now they'll support the templars out of hate.